Weight Loss Strategies

[Broken man]

Summer is near and I think that some people here want to lose some weight (fat). Sorry for my english, I am using translater and it isnt perfect. Some introduction, I was at hospital 2 times, because of my heart at first, second time because of my liver. FIrst time, I had Myocarditis because of some type of virus, second, I had very very high liver enzymes ALT and AST. Nobody know why I have this problems. I was just doing what doctors told me, started working but I was feeling horrible, I had really big pain under my heart and near abdomen. Supplements like pregnenolone, androsterone or pansterone didnt help, I had problems with breathing when I took big dose. Alot of my experiments ended badly. I had about 2 weeks of home rest after my second hospital visit. I was thinking what I can do, was searching about why my ALT enzyme was 40x higher than normal. Haidut recommend me coffee and gelatin. I came home, started with peat diet (which means alot of sugar atleast for me) and coffee and gelatin. I wanted play it safe because I didnt want next problems. My enzymes were normal 2 weeks ago but I had horrible abdominal pain and I had problems with walking, whole body in pain. I had last chance, I used energin, applied it on my forehead, very small coffee and started searching. Problem was that niacinamide didnt help me, I thought that it could stop it. I finally found some usefull info and want share it with you. I will try to do some guide how to lose weight and start with peating. I will be using alot of by Haidut.

How to start:

Therein lies the trick with Peat's approach - everything affects everything else and depends on everything else. So, how do you go about solving it all? I think some of his basic recommendations are very helpful. Moderate doses of protein, combined with some sugar and keeping fat low should form the basis of your diet. How much protein? Well, maybe you can start with 50g which is what most sick people in the hospital get and seems to be the minimum to ensure organ function without burdening liver or kidneys too much. Try to ingest at least twice as many carbs as the grams of protein in each meal. Then you track temperature and pulse and monitor health signs like fatigue, brain fog, thrist, etc. Increase in any of these probably means increase of ammonia and/or lactate so you need to adjust thing. If is lactate, your muscles would feel sore and limbs would feel heavy and you may start panting from the reduction in CO2. If that is the case, you are probably not processing carbs well so adding things like thiamine and biotin should help. If you get sudden brain fog or your pee smells of ammonia too strongly then either ammonia in blood is too high or you got dehydrated. Adding more carbs and/or sweetened fluids may resolve this. Also, things like zinc or ceylon cinnamon or biotin or thiamine would reduce ammonia in blood. So, now we have two supplements that seem like they would work for both ammonia and lactate - thiamine and biotin. However, if even 50g of protein gives you ammonia symptoms consistently then I'd get some tests done for liver and kidney function as it should not be happening. Another reason for ammonia buildup from small amounts of protein would be extreme hypothyroidism and/or strenuous exercise. Peat said that in one of his articles. But I'd get liver and kidneys checked anyways.
Once you get to a basic diet that does not cause you a stress reaction or symptoms of toxic metabolite buildup you can (if needed) add some metabolic boosting agents like caffeine or thyroid (if needed). Monitor temperature and pulse and if any of these extra substances gives you a stress reaction then either back down or increase nutrients. Overall, the body is very good at regenerating. If you get to a diet that does not harm you (in terms of ratio of protein, carbs, and fat) it takes about 2-3 weeks to get to a much healthier level where you can expand on your success and change nutrient ratios or amounts, add different supplements, etc. Initially I gained more than 30 lbs on the Ray Peat "diet" until I finally figured it out, and for me it was liver function that had to improved with caffeine and vitamin K2 before things got better. That does NOT mean that this is what will work for you since your situation/context is almost certainly different from mine. But that's why you start with something common in all people - smaller meals of basic nutrients that can be controlled and adjusted and once you get to a working version of a diet that does not affect you badly you build up from there. Again, Peat write about many things that are useful IN ISOLATION, but in order for them to be working for you context will have to be taken into account. If your current context (it changes over time like everything else) is such that a supplement or recommendation from Peat stresses you out then it better to work on changing the context instead of forcing that supplement or recommendation on yourself.

About that

pee smells of ammonia too strongly then either ammonia in blood is too high or you got dehydrated

- I thought that thiamine helps liver get ammonia out of body through urea so maybe somebody could explain how this work.

So, assuming one keeps a steady dietary supply of sucrose (or some other type of sugar), wouldn't the constant presence of glucose in the blood stream keep insulin chronically elevated too? I have read various, and often contradictory, statements from Peat about the whole blood sugar and insulin thing. Often, he says that it is important to always keep blood glucose up to keep cortisol at bay and metabolism high. Of course, this means insulin would be elevated chronically too. On insulin, Ray sometimes says it is a good hormone responsible for anabolism and keeping tumor growth under control. At other times he has said that elevated insulin is not a good thing. So, I am bit confused about the overall dietary guidelines. Should we try to keep blood sugar elevated all the time but at a certain stable (and reasonable) level, which would imply higher (but stable insulin), or should we do pulse feeds which would temporarily bring insulin up to shuttle the glucose to the muscles and then insulin goes down and the body runs on glycogen from the liver?
I suspect a number of people on the forum struggle with this issue as evidenced by several posts of rapid weight gain, elevated blood glucose and insulin on blood tests and worried doctors making recommendations to cut down on sugar, blood pressure rising in people who did not have blood pressure issues before, etc. Some of these things could be beneficial, but there was a post by one person who said her blood pressure went from 120/80 to 150/90 after adopting the higher sugar diet and after some back and forth with her doctor she decided to quit the Peat diet. Then she reported her blood pressure normalizing after reducing sugar intake. Btw, it is well known in the bodybuilding community that cutting carbs works just like diuretics. I am not an advocate of this, but wouldn't people prone to edema and having thyroid problems get their water-retention problems exacerbated if they increase sugar/carbs intake? I guess that would happen at least initially and the theory is that as their metabolism normalizes they should be able to better utilize glucose and then lose all the excess water. So, the million dollar question is how long does one have to re-feed higher carbs diet (and suppress fatty acid oxidation through the Randle effect) until their insulin sensitivity is restored?
Finally, there have been a number of reports on Peatarian and occasionally on this forum of people experiencing proteinuria (protein in the urine) when increasing sugar intake above 200g daily. If you are eating 80g+ of protein then you probably strive to eat at least as many carbs. Peat has said that this proteinuria is due to people burning PUFA, which makes albumin leak in the urine and show up on the tests but as far as I can tell, these people were actually burning fat before adopting the higher sugar diet and only experienced proteinuria after increasing sugar intake. Of course, they could have had this issue all along and only realized it after switching and measuring their urine but there are several reports of this so I doubt it's a random thing. Somebody also posted a study on thousands of university employees and those who consumes the most sugary drinks reported the highest incidence of proteinuria.
It would be nice if we can get some guidelines on this. Personally, I use caffeine to increase the utilization of sugar and don't really have issues with it, but in theory there should be a way to handle sugar from diet without relying on sugar burning aids like caffeine and/or thyroid. Thyroid does not seem to be a good option for me, and I have tried all kinds of supplementing schedules and dosages. As I have posted on other threads, my experience with sugar only improved after I took serious measures to "normalize" my liver function through caffeine and vitamin K2, BUT my liver enzymes were NORMAL according to the standard lab ranges. If the stats are true and over 80% of people over 30 have some degree of fatty liver, which is the real cause behind type II diabetes, then I think many people adopting the Peat diet will likely experience stress reduction through the lower cortisol, but may end up making their fatty liver worse, especially is supplementing niacinamide and aspirin. Such_Saturation and I posted about this in another thread.
So, my main point is that burning sugar is definitely preferable to burning fat based on both Peat's writings and all the studies I have seen about liver disease being caused by increased lipid peroxidation byproducts, and cirrhosis (in alcoholic rats) being easily and succesfully treated by feeding about 60g-70g of saturated fat like butter or coconut oil for a week, while the rats kept drinking alcohol at the same time! So, on the point of burning sugar I think the question is settled that it is preferable to burning fat.
However, the point is to actually BURN the sugar rather than simply feeding ourselves more of it. For people with sluggish livers, many of whom also take niacinamide and aspirin, this is likely to make the metabolism situation worse by fattening the liver even more, even though admittedly the fat synthesized will be saturated since it is made from sugar. But fatty liver will increase your estrogen no matter how saturated the fat is that you are synthesizing. So, fattening up the liver even more probably won't do much good for metabolism. Another suggestion from Peat would be to increase protein intake to at least 80g a day which should support liver function, lower estrogen and increase conversion of T4 into T3. However, that will likely also not work very well in people with sluggish and fatty livers since underperforming liver will convert a lot of that extra protein into ammonia. Even Peat is clear on this point in one of his articles where he says that "hyperammonemia can be caused by exhaustive exercise or hypothyroidism". This is also evidenced by a number of studies showing that people in their late 30s, 40s, and 50s experience chronic fatigue issues that are greatly helped by giving them ammonia-reducing agents like ornithine or sodium benzoate. And those people consume nowhere near the 80g of protein Peat recommends. So, if they are having ammonia issues imagine how would the people loading up on extra protein would feel.
Which brings us to the point that for many people over the age of 30, simply increasing sugar and/or protein will likely not solve the metabolic issues. Thus, the Peat diet, while the correct way to eat, may not be a solution to the issues of hypothyroidism, but rather a way to avoid the worse option of running on cortisol and adrenalin, which while energizing in the short run will ruin you in the longer run.
Considering the Barnes book "Hypoglycemia: It's not your brain, it's your liver", which I read, it seems that restoring optimal liver function is also a key to improving metabolism. Yes, thyroid function is important too, but I think Peat's recommendation on supplementing thyroid even in the presence of normal thyroid labs may cause issues for a number of people. Charlie, and at least 20 other people have posted on struggling with supplementing thyroid. If they take it, they develop teeth issues, skin issues, anxiety or some other unpleasant symptoms. If they don't take it, their digestion slows down to a crawl or they start getting hypothyroid symptoms like brain fog or muscle issues, etc.
So, if the stats are true and the evidence I have seen is legit, then eating according to the peat guidelines is a great strategy AFTER metabolism is fixed. But if 80% of people over 30 are having liver issues or some other problems with metabolism, then the diet will be certainly supportive, but likely not "curative". And for some people with particularly bad liver problems the situation may end up getting worse in a way due to even more fatty liver issues or higher ammonia levels. Just ask anybody over the age of 40 if they are having trouble maintaining (let alone building) muscle mass.
Then the question becomes, what will aid metabolic recovery, other than blindly supplementing thyroid even in the presence of normal thyroid labs? I guess the answer Peat will give is that one needs to wait at least 4 years and get rid of the PUFA before starting to see solid results. There is some solid evidence in favor of lower PUFA fixing metabolic issues.

But I wonder if working on liver health or trying to build more muscle will also help while waiting out the PUFA detox period? Uncoupling agents are probably also key, but they should probably be other than aspirin since it may make fatty liver issues worse for many people if used in the doses needed for mitochondrial uncoupling. Finally, increasing CO2 production or intake somehow will also likely have a key role. Just throwing things out there that seem to be cardinal methods for improving metabolism.
Sorry about the long rant, I just felt like this deserves some attention since a number of threads pop on the forum asking the same questions and I have been thinking about this for some time. If someone knows about Peat's definitive opinion on this issue please share it. Maybe I missed it in his articles. IMHO, after reading pretty much all of his published stuff, reading people's testimonies/complaints, cross-referencing this with studies, and my own experience, I think a number of chicken/egg question still remain.

For members that think diet alone could work:

However, if you look at my points they are geared mostly at protein. Higher protein diet can be very counterproductive for a hypothyroid person coming to Peat diet and can generate a lot of ammonia. Adding tons of sugar on top of that would burden the liver even more. As far as I know Peat has not addressed this issue in any of his articles but has written about it its dangers. I guess one thing that a person can do in such situation is to keep protein intake moderate (at MOST 80g a day), eat sugar to appetite AND also supplement thyroid. I think that for a seriously hypothyroid person the Peat diet is probably not enough to dig themselves out of the hypothyroid whole even if they kept fat at a minimum. Thyroid is needed to make sure the sluggish liver processes the sugar and uses the energy to repair itself.
I guess my biggest point is that for many (maybe most) people coming to Peat, diet alone will not fix things even if they manage to keep fat intake close to 0%. Supplementation is likely necessary and often drugs like thyroid and maybe some other pro-metabolic agent (i.e. anti-serotonin, anti-prolactin, anti-estrogen) would be needed to keep the metabolism form crashing while the body recovers. There are plenty of reports on this forum of lean people getting stress response symptoms from fructose or sucrose and that I can only attribute to malfunctioning liver and maybe some sort of peripheral insulin resistance. Diet alone is probably not going to fix their issues. If it were as simple as just finding the right diet, there would be no big industry for type II diabetes, insulin resistance, etc.
Maybe what we can do on the forum is find a representative case for each type and try to work out a protocol that seems to be helping. I think the two main types I have seen mostly are overweight (where the weight gain came from eating under the Peat guidelines, maybe due to abusing fat as you say) and thin and cold all the time and unable to put on muscle. I guess the goal for one would be to maximize uncoupling of mitochondria, while for the latter would be to maximize anabolism in the body to stimulate muscle building. Ultimately both types would converge to optimal metabolism and health but coming from opposite ends of the spectrum.
So, I am not bashing Peat, I am just summarizing many of the issues I have seen people on the forum struggle with. And many of them are quite thin, so weight gain is not an issue.
Just my 2c.

If you are trying really low fat diet:

For my protein I use micellar casein protein powder. For sugar I use OJ, sucrose and fructose powder. I eat liver fried in coconut oil and make sure to drain it before storing in the fridge. I purposefully avoid all fat and I'd estimate I consume maybe 1-2g of saturated fat a day which comes from the liver, which at 3000 calories is insignificant enough to say I'm on a no-fat diet.

Some threads abour protein: Potato Protein Soup Cooking Rules
Optimal Protein Intake Is Likely 20g-30g Per Meal
List of foods sorted by protein per calorie
Taurine Dramatically Improves Protein Utilization From Food
Amino Acid Supplementation For People With Poor Digestion

Summary about diet- Try find easy digestable foods
50-100 g of protein
nutrients- calcium, salts ( sodium, potassium, magnesium ) , selenium, B vitamins.
CRON-O-Meter: Track nutrition & count calories for tracking nutrients
fat solubles vitamins A, D, E, K
at least twice as many carbs as the grams of protein in each meal

Magnesium supplement-

These magnesium pills are expensive and not much effective in oral application.. Here in CZ I can buy very cheap magnesium chloride in pharmacy quality. I mix like 30g(1g=120 mg of magnesium) with water in 0,5l spray bottle and I spray whole body 2 times or at least once a day.. There are also some studies. Specifically with transdermal magnesium chloride. It is very effective and cheap.

Here are some food choices and next things: Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, And General Guidelines

In terms of my enzymes:

I think my slightly elevated liver enzymes were the result of exhaustive exercise and muscle damage. Only my AST was elevated and I was told that it is actually used as a marker for muscle damage from overtraining, including damage to the heart muscle in heart attacks!

Next usefulls things from start as Haidut wrote: CO2, mitochondrial uncoupling, building muscle.

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And so, when you first start Peating you will consume more calories, but the effects of expending more calories may not start right away. It's only when you achieve a very high level of CO2 in your body, by a process called "uncoupling respiration", that you start to expend calories at a very high rate. Once you start uncoupling at this high level of CO2, you generate extra heat, and the fat literally melts off of you. It's a true "fat-burning miracle".

Thiamine- sign that your CO2 is low

I feel lactic acid buildup or stuffy nose (low CO2)

Ethanol potentiates the B-vitamins 15-20x. It's in the first page of the Energin thread.

The scientists were aware of the increased need for electrolytes while on this therapy and had the patients drink 8oz of orange juice daily. It seems that was all the extra potassium people needed.

I don't know if it would deplete them but it may increase the need for them. More B1 increases need for potassium, and I think B2, and B3.

and magnesium.
Thiamine Reduces Both Lactate And Ammonia
Using Vitamins (thiamine) For Improving Glucose Control
Thiamine Is A Carbonic Anhydrase Inhibitor As Effective As Acetazolamide
Thiamine Acts Similarly To DCA And May Be Helpful In Cancer

Peat wrote in several of his articles that biotin deficiency triggers glycolysis and extra biotin restrains it.

Lactate vs. CO2 in wounds, sickness, and aging; the other approach to cancer

"...Vitamins D, K, B6 and biotin are also closely involved with carbon dioxide metabolism. Biotin deficiency can cause aerobic glycolysis with increased fat synthesis (Marshall, et al., 1976)."

Also, he wrote about either Warburg or Szent-Györgyi believing that cancer was caused by biotin deficiency (likely connected to it stimulating glycolysis). Peat did not disagree with that statement, so I am assuming he at least somewhat approves of biotin supplementation.

Finally, all of the B vitamins are absorbable topically. In fact, with ethanol solution they have better absorption than oral but the oral route is better in the sense that you can ingest a much larger dose.

- about Haidut´s experience with Thiamine-

I think we all have deficiency of the B vitamins these days. Mainstream medicine openly states that stress depletes B vitamin stores and also inhibits their absorption, but still shies away from suggesting supplementation.

Energin is used mostly orally based on what I hear from people. I just can't officially endorse such use. The people who take it orally usually chase it down with some orange juice. The stomach upset is probably due to thiamine (B1). I get it myself when I take it on an empty stomach. It is a known side effect of thiamine and can be remediated by taking with food or decent dose juice / soda.

I found this thread and thought I'd add some info.

Couple of things. First, no need to take the "fat soluble" alternatives like benfothiamine and sulbuthiamine. They are both synthetic and both are mostly sourced from China and there have been several cases of poisoning. In addition, there are no studies that show these types of B1 are superior to the normal thiamine hydrochloride. The vendors would have you believe otherwise, but the only true fat soluble vitamin B1 is called allithiamine and only allithiamine has been shown to be absorbed without limit in every organ. Benfo and Sulbu absorb preferentially in the liver and there is data that the body treats them like poison and tries to excrete them. If you want allithiamine you can get it from VitaminShoppe:
http://www.vitaminshoppe.com/p/cardiova ... es/cv-1075

Now, back to the regular thiamine. It's used intravenously to help alcoholics avoid getting the Wiernicke-Korsakoff syndrome but for a long time there were concerns that oral thiamine hydrochloride is not absorbed beyond a few milligrams. To answer those concerns, there was a study done in 2012 to test the absorption and it turned out it is absorbed just fine in doses up to 1500mg at once:
Pharmacokinetics of high-dose oral thiamine hydrochloride in healthy subjects

If you read the study you will see that the half life is approximately 10 hours and peaks occur at 4 hours. So taking 1500mg every 4 hours seems to be able to maintain high plasma concentrations, which is what is needed for lowering lactate and converting carbs into ATP. Ionically, this dosage adds up to about 6000mg-8000mg a day and that is what has been used to treat Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8251 ... 00m,isrctn

As you can see there was a positive effect on AD at doses 6g-8g a day.
As far as I am concerned, 1500mg three times a day for a total of 4500mg gives me an uninterrupted flow of energy. However, I also add a B-complex with 5mg of B6, 10mg of Riboflavin, and 1000mcg of B-12. Also, I throw in a 500mg of Niacinamide. So the whole combo is what gives me the all-day energy surge, taking just B1 at the dose I mentioned gives me about 70% of the effect.
If you need more info on B1 just ask. I have been experimenting with it a lot.

Just a quick note for those people that do not have allithiamine (i.e. the study above was done with allithiamine). Allithiamine is a fat-soluble version of thiamine and is much more expensive and hard to find. The question is if we can achieve similar results with regular thiamine Hcl.
I posted a study some time ago on various dosage regimens of thiamine Hcl. It looks like the highest dose 1,500mg achieved similar concentrations to the dosage used by the study above. I have attached two screenshots from each study so you can see the similar plasma concentrations. So, it looks like regular thiamine Hcl is about 50% less effective (absorbable) in achieving the same blood concentrations achieved with allithiamine. The dosage used in the study above was close to 1,000mg while the dosage in the other study was 1,500mg.
NOTE! - My comments are simply about achieving similar blood concentrations of the two different types of B1. I have no idea if the two vitamins have same (or even similar) effects in tissues, and in fact there are several studies saying the two versions of B1 have different effectiveness in terms of conversion into various cofactors for carbohydrate metabolism. So, no guarantee that thiamine Hcl will be as effective as allithiamine but I suspect it will be fairly close.

and-

Aside from that I take "lower" daily dosage of it that are still higher than what Ray mentions. I am taking the vitamin B "energy punch", which (as I mentioned to caroline) for me comes comes down to taking two doses (one in morning and one in evening) of the following:

Niacinamide: one capsule 500mg
Thiamine: 5 capsules x 300mg each for a total of 1,500mg
Riboflavin: 2 capsules x 100mg in each for 200mg total
B comples combo capsule: has 5mg B6, 5mg B5, 500mcg biotin, etc.

So, my "normal" niacinamide intake is 1,000mg daily (500mg morning and 500mg evening) as part of the vitamin B regimen. I know that seems a lot to some people but I am convinced that it is the niacinamide that got me from a pre-diabetic state of full ketosis back to sugar oxidation. I was on paleo diet for about 2 years and when I stopped I would still taste the acetone on my lips and my sweat would smell like ketones even when I was drinking pure sugar. People were noticing and asking if I use nail polish, it was that bad of a ketosis state. So, about 6 months after my flirt with niacinamide things normalized. It could have been the diet as well, but every time I would take a 500mg niacinamide pill the ketone smell/taste would go away in 30min-60min. So, in hindsight everything is 20/20 I guess.

I dont know if I could use this as guidelines but when we take that

I take high doses for various reasons. The most important one being that the RDA for vitamin B1 (and other vitamins too) were developed decades ago and it takes into account the minimum amount necessary for survival. So, 2mg-3mg is what is barely sufficient for not developing diseases like Beri-Beri (and I am not even sure it would enough to prevent it). Ray Peat said he was taking several hundred milligrams when he was learning new languages, so that gave me a hint. Also, I know that people with health issues have been treated with much higher dosages. For instance, a typical hospital treatment protocol with thiamine (B1) is 100mg-200mg IV. Broadly assuming 1:10 conversion for IVral you get 1,000mg-2,000 per day which is getting close to the doses I take. Finally, many studies on PubMed talk about how people can show normal plasma levels of B1 but be very deficient in it. Look at the studies I posted on Chron's.
As far as energy - I do feel it within 30min and I think for me the full effect kicks in within 60min and stays like that for 3-4 hours assuming I also eat regularly and make sure I get some carbs as well.
I am not advocating everybody take B1 at my dosage, I am just saying the the studies with oral thiamine typically use multi-gram dosages per day, probably with a very good reason

And that

Given that we use R5P for B2, and the dose is 20mg, this is equivalent to about 100mg - 200mg regular riboflavin. Even if you only absorb 25% of the topical dose that is still 5mg R5P, and Ray recommends doses under 10mg (regular riboflavin) daily for most people.

Biotin- Using Vitamins (biotin) For Improving Glucose Control

B6- Using vitamins (pyridoxine) for improving glucose control

Caffeine- Alot of members recommend to start with liver protocol or cleaning of its fat. Its great idea but

In "Caffeine intolerant" individuals, brain lactate went up. This intolerance had no specific metric, just that these people reported negative symptoms like anxiety when given caffeine. Caffeine tolerant individuals did not see lactate increase with habitual use, but if they stopped caffeine for a period of time (4 weeks in this study), they saw the same lactate increase. Now, "lactate increase" does not necessarily mean "harmful lactate accumulation". We still don't know if this lactate increase is for good -- lactate used in metabolism to generate ATP -- or is actually harmful.

And this is reason why

Since acute caffeine intake is known to increase lactate, for people experiencing this I would suggest taking a decent dose of thiamine (vitamin B1) about an hour before caffeine and then repeat this dose before every other caffeine dose during the day. Ray has said 300mg every 4 hours is fine, but some people may need more than that to balance the increase in lactic acid.

Niacinamide is indeed one of the simplest ways to avoid lactate buildup in the brain and this may explain a great deal of its neuroprotection profile. There are other potentially useful methods. One of them is to also use some methylene blue, which will also reoxidize NADH back to NAD. However, I don't think methylene blue will resolve the issue with pyruvate buildup, it will just limit its conversion into lactate. Another (and perhaps more beneficial) way to avoid the conversion of pyruvate to lactate is to dramatically speed up PDH function and use that extra pyruvate for the Krebs cycle. Providing the rate limiting co-factor thiamine as either IV thiamine Hcl or oral allithiamine/sulbuthiamine does the job very well and this is one of the reason oral allithiamine is used as therapy for alcohol psychosis (Korsakoff syndrome) characterized by excess brain lactate/pyruvate. It is also the reason why allithiamine is about to be added to the list of banned performance improving substances beyound a certain dose (~10mg/kg will probably be the cutoff). Yet another alternative would be to supplement biotin, which is a rate-limiting co-factor for pyruvate carboxylase (PDC) and will convert the excess pyruvate to oxaloacetate and thus also lead to lowering of lactate. The recent study with progressive MS and high dose biotin found that biotin speeds up oxidative metabolism specifically in the brain. Since the progressiveness of MS is tightly correlated with brain lactate levels, this is good evidence that biotin lowers lactate in the brain.
I think lactate buildup is one of the situation where simply supplementing thyroid may not do much good as the excess pyruvate has to be metabolized and used and without proper function of PDH and PDC (which depend on co-factor availability) thyroid is of little use.
Just my 2c.

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I don't know if poor liver function can cause all of these issues but taking some caffeine will tell you where you stand on that. If taking 200mg caffeine with something sweet gives you a stress response then you need to work on your liver health. Keeping the intake of that 200mg caffeine for as little as 2 weeks should restore liver function considerably (unless there is actual damage like fibrosis, which caffeine can also reverse but in much higher doses).
Keep in mind that both caffeine and K2 can cause insomnia on their own, so I would take them at the beginning of the day.

I don't know about glycogen since that test has not been done as far as I know, but I have seen studies showing that ingesting caffeine with about 30g of sugar prevented the jitteriness.

-https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/caffeine-reverses-stress-insulin-resistance-hypertension.7729/#post-98445
- Topical Caffeine For Weight Loss

I don't experience "adrenal burnout" from caffeine. This is probably due to the fact that I take it with a decent amount of sugar and magnesium in the form of orange juice. Most people that I know and report caffeine issues take it on an empty stomach, have poor glycogen stores or are otherwise running on stress hormones. As we discussed in another thread, the response to caffeine may be a good indication of liver function and if people are getting a stress response from even a small dose of caffeine this indicated poor glycogen stores, poor liver function and hypothyroidism in general.

As far as I know caffeine only causes the stress response in people with poor glycogen stores. So, taking caffeine with something like pure fructose or a larger dose of sucrose either greatly diminishes the stress response or stops it completely. It all comes down to liver function really, since liver function determines how well/efficiently carbs get turned into glycogen. Since fructose forces even a poor functioning liver to produce and store glycogen I'd expect taking even a large dose of caffeine 400mg+ combined with 20g-30g pure fructose to have minimal stress effects. For those who do not have access to pure fructose I guess two glasses of apple juice should suffice since apple juice is about 70% fructose.
Since caffeine improves liver function, with time a person should be able to ingest more caffeine and less carbs until eventually glycogen stores are so well rpelenishable by th eliver that you could take caffeine on "empty stomach" and still experience no ill effect since you'd have plenty of glycogen to run on.
But to answer your question - I don't know of anything in caffeine that in and of itself would cause a stress response. It's the insufficient "fuel" that causes it. Also, caffeine is dopaminergic and some other dopaminergic drugs have similar effects due to increased metabolism.

-for digestive issues- Caffeine Increases Both Gastric Acid And Pepsin Levels

- effects like DNP-

I posted a study showing that caffeine at human doses of 600mg per day has a maximum effect on allopregnanolone but progesterone kept increasing with dosage. So, it looks like the more caffeine you ingest the more progesterone you make and more anti-estrogenic the effect. However, at higher doses caffeine also inhibits DHT and testosterone synthesis so there is probably a sweet spot and most studies show 100mg/kg daily in rats to be optimal. This translates to about 1,200mg - 1,400mg daily for a human. The study comparing caffeine to DNP, the in vitro dosage used was also in the range 1,200mg - 1,600mg.

-caffeine tolerance- Full tolerance to stress response of caffeine within 4 days

-Anti estrogen- Caffeine Is A Potent Anti-estrogen; Can Block Estrogen "receptor" Completely

-Against caffeine jitters- taurine, theanine, pregnenolone - Theanine Restrains The Over-stimulating Effects Of Caffeine

-carbonic anhydrase inhibitor- Caffeine Is A Carbonic Anhydrase Inhibitor

-surrogate for thyroid- Caffeine Acts Like Supplemental Thyroid - It Suppresses TSH / GH

-Oxidal is uncoupler too- Methylene Blue (MB) Uncouples Respiration
Oxidal - Liquid Dietary Supplement For Oxidation Support

Thanks for the links. It does seem that studies on CO2 are coming out at a greater rate then several years ago. Though I suspect it's due to global warming and people getting hired to publish apocalyptic results on the effects of CO2 on living organisms.
I don't know if you have taken DNP, but I found a way to mimic the effects of taking it pretty closely by using aspirin and MB. Optimal uncoupling occurs with aspirin in concentrations 0.5mM/L. This is achievable with 650mg - 1,000mg aspirin taken every 6-8 hours. With each dose, you can take 5mg MB for additive effect on uncoupling. MB uncouples starting at 0.5uM/L. And finally, you can add 500mg thiamine to each dose to mitigate some of the lactate boosting effects of aspirin and further increase CO2.
Using just the aspirin and MB combo makes me sweaty and hot in a way very close to what I experienced with DNP but without the unpleasant jittery feeling. Adding thiamine made me breath deeper, probably due to the lowered lactate and increased CO2.

-uncouplers-

Not just DNP, most other uncouplers would work for obesity as well. Taking 2g - 3g aspirin also uncouples respiration, as is 800mg+ caffeine daily (but most people cannot handle that much caffeine). However, unlike aspirin, there is not much evidence that DNP reduces overall cancer risk or other conditions like CVD.

-pregnenolone for more muscle- The Anabolic Effects Of Pregnenolone
Pregnenolone For Obesity And Insulin Resistance

-Last things about fat loss-

Aspirin and caffeine are additive in their effect on mitochondrial uncoupling. Hence the reason the (in)famous stack ECA had ephedrine, caffeine and aspirin in it. If you can handle the high dosages of caffeine combined with aspirin then by all means go for it. I think the effects of aspirin would depend on the dose. In smaller doses it likely blocks lipolysis and in higher doses it increases fat oxidation. All I know is that when I was taking 500mg a day and 500mg-1,000mg niacinamide a day (without caffeine) I was not losing weight but felt like gaining instead. But this could be due to me being hypothyroid at the time.
For people trying to lose weight, I'd still focus on caffeine and K2 until their liver function normalizes (as measured by both enzymes and tolerance to caffeine).
If I had to reproduce my experiment, I'd still go the caffeine route and add niacinamide only after losing excess fat.

I have not written on Peatarian.com as I find the site to be highly argumentative. I supposed there is some value in arguing about this, but my goal is not to argue - it is to find the truth for myself. I trust what read and experiment with more than anybody's argument, even Peat's. I will look at studies posted by other people but I find it very often that the person with a strong argument has some sort of vested interest to convince others that he/she is right. All studies I have seen say, and I have confirmed through my own blood tests, that lipogenesis from carbs is not a practical issue for most people. That seems to be true for me. However, carbs can and do become an issue for people with fatty livers. I have not answered for myself if it is best to just force through the fat burning period to get the liver lean and then refeed on proper carbs and moderate saturated fat, or if it is better to keep loading up on carbs (and block lipolysis) and hope the liver with get rid of the PUFA and excess fat through glucoronidation after several years like Peat suggests. Each method has its pros and cons and it will likely be a unique experience for each person. I think moderate fat burning is probably fine for most people. Even babies burn fat when they are born, but it is indeed saturated fat. I am not sure I agree fully with Peat that it takes 4 years to get rid of PUFA. The study on monkey I posted says all PUFA can be depleted with just 30 days of fat free meals. So, in the more realistic scenario of a person on this forum eating mostly saturated fat and some PUFA, it will probably take several months to a year but nowhere close to the 4 years Peat is quoting. If you have decent vitamin E stores, I don't see a need to block lipolysis completely by aspirin and niacinamide since the free fatty acids in the blood will get saturated and should pose less danger. There are tons of studies showing vitamin E fully prevents harmful lipid peroxidation due to exercise. Taurine has been shown to do the same. I have lost most of my extra weight I gained on Peat by stopping niacinamide and aspirin, avoiding PUFA whenever possible, keeping vitamin E levels close to the upper normal range in labs, keeping protein normal (80g-100g), and not really restricting sugar except making sure I consume no starch like bread, rice, potatoes, etc. It actually worked quite easily and it took about 3 months to drop the 30 extra pounds I had, and the only exercise I do is walk several miles a day at a slow pace and do pushups 3 times a week. Not exactly a hardcore exercise schedule.
In terms of supplements, I am taking vitamin B1, B2, and B6 for mitochondrial health and sugar control. I also take my fat soluble vitamins K, A, D, E and I consume 8g-16g of Knox gelatin (2 Knox packets) with every meal as it has been shown to prevent weight gain on high sugar diet.
This does not mean that my formula will work for everybody. But at least you can control hyperglycemia with thiamine and I will post a separate thread on that later today. If you can control hyperglycemia, then insulin resistance should not be an issue even according to the Peatarian people whom I have seen argue that repeated insulin spikes is what causes insulin resistance.
I'd say keep doing what you feel works for you and there are any general guidelines those would be to avoid the PUFA, keep protein intake high (but make sure you get come gelatin with it), and try to consume most of your sugar as fruit. If know you have blood sugar issues, take thiamine 300mg with every meal. For some people the dosage may be higher and like I said I will post a separate thread on that later.

-https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/hyperthermia-as-treatment-for-depression.11052/#post-146348

Its not all and I will work on it, I welcome every next idea about what I am missing.

 

[Orion]

Thanks for collecting all this in one post, some really good info in there. All the Peaty things backfired on me, until I started aggressively depleting PUFA and following haiduts thoughts about avoiding aspirin/B3 until leaner (lost 10lbs in one month, while keeping temps/pulse up, and muscle mass steady). I think I might start experimenting with more B1.

 

[lollipop]

Summer is near and I think that some people here want to lose some weight (fat). Sorry for my english, I am using translater and it isnt perfect. Some introduction, I was at hospital 2 times, because of my heart at first, second time because of my liver. FIrst time, I had Myocarditis because of some type of virus, second, I had very very high liver enzymes ALT and AST. Nobody know why I have this problems. I was just doing what doctors told me, started working but I was feeling horrible, I had really big pain under my heart and near abdomen. Supplements like pregnenolone, androsterone or pansterone didnt help, I had problems with breathing when I took big dose. Alot of my experiments ended badly. I had about 2 weeks of home rest after my second hospital visit. I was thinking what I can do, was searching about why my ALT enzyme was 40x higher than normal. Haidut recommend me coffee and gelatin. I came home, started with peat diet (which means alot of sugar atleast for me) and coffee and gelatin. I wanted play it safe because I didnt want next problems. My enzymes were normal 2 weeks ago but I had horrible abdominal pain and I had problems with walking, whole body in pain. I had last chance, I used energin, applied it on my forehead, very small coffee and started searching. Problem was that niacinamide didnt help me, I thought that it could stop it. I finally found some usefull info and want share it with you. I will try to do some guide how to lose weight and start with peating. I will be using alot of by Haidut.

How to start:

About that - I thought that thiamine helps liver get ammonia out of body through urea so maybe somebody could explain how this work.





For members that think diet alone could work:


If you are trying really low fat diet:

Some threads abour protein: Potato Protein Soup Cooking Rules
Optimal Protein Intake Is Likely 20g-30g Per Meal
List of foods sorted by protein per calorie
Taurine Dramatically Improves Protein Utilization From Food
Amino Acid Supplementation For People With Poor Digestion

Summary about diet- Try find easy digestable foods
50-100 g of protein
nutrients- calcium, salts ( sodium, potassium, magnesium ) , selenium, B vitamins.
CRON-O-Meter: Track nutrition & count calories for tracking nutrients
fat solubles vitamins A, D, E, K
at least twice as many carbs as the grams of protein in each meal

Magnesium supplement-

Here are some food choices and next things: Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, And General Guidelines

In terms of my enzymes:

Next usefulls things from start as Haidut wrote: CO2, mitochondrial uncoupling, building muscle.

-

Thiamine- sign that your CO2 is low


and magnesium.
Thiamine Reduces Both Lactate And Ammonia
Using Vitamins (thiamine) For Improving Glucose Control
Thiamine Is A Carbonic Anhydrase Inhibitor As Effective As Acetazolamide
Thiamine Acts Similarly To DCA And May Be Helpful In Cancer



- about Haidut´s experience with Thiamine-









and-


I dont know if I could use this as guidelines but when we take that

And that



Biotin- Using Vitamins (biotin) For Improving Glucose Control

B6- Using vitamins (pyridoxine) for improving glucose control

Caffeine- Alot of members recommend to start with liver protocol or cleaning of its fat. Its great idea but
And this is reason why



-


-https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/caffeine-reverses-stress-insulin-resistance-hypertension.7729/#post-98445
- Topical Caffeine For Weight Loss





-for digestive issues- Caffeine Increases Both Gastric Acid And Pepsin Levels

- effects like DNP-

-caffeine tolerance- Full tolerance to stress response of caffeine within 4 days

-Anti estrogen- Caffeine Is A Potent Anti-estrogen; Can Block Estrogen "receptor" Completely

-Against caffeine jitters- taurine, theanine, pregnenolone - Theanine Restrains The Over-stimulating Effects Of Caffeine

-carbonic anhydrase inhibitor- Caffeine Is A Carbonic Anhydrase Inhibitor

-surrogate for thyroid- Caffeine Acts Like Supplemental Thyroid - It Suppresses TSH / GH

-Oxidal is uncoupler too- Methylene Blue (MB) Uncouples Respiration
Oxidal - Liquid Dietary Supplement For Oxidation Support




-uncouplers-

-pregnenolone for more muscle- The Anabolic Effects Of Pregnenolone
Pregnenolone For Obesity And Insulin Resistance

-Last things about fat loss-




-https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/hyperthermia-as-treatment-for-depression.11052/#post-146348

Its not all and I will work on it, I welcome every next idea about what I am missing.

Appreciating this post and your efforts @Broken man! Good stuff.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

It's too late for this summer as fat loss happens very slowly. The only way it happens quickly is if you were to do severe calorie restriction or a water only fast. You can quickly lose some water weight by restricting salt but not body fat.

 

[Regina]

Thanks for collecting all this in one post, some really good info in there. All the Peaty things backfired on me, until I started aggressively depleting PUFA and following haiduts thoughts about avoiding aspirin/B3 until leaner (lost 10lbs in one month, while keeping temps/pulse up, and muscle mass steady). I think I might start experimenting with more B1.

Interesting. I started Peating from a very catabolic state. And I had not been eating PUFA for 4 yrs. (had been on Jaminet's Perfect Health Diet). I did not have an ounce of fat on me. So, I don't know what all this new fat is. I may stop the aspirin/B3 for a bit.

 

[Regina]

Ah heck. On second thought, I'd rather take niacinamide and restrain FFA.
Heart and hormones
I don't know, maybe my racing heart in aikido class when things get pyro-technic, is a sign of health??

 

[Broken man]

Ah heck. On second thought, I'd rather take niacinamide and restrain FFA.
Heart and hormones
I don't know, maybe my racing heart in aikido class when things get pyro-technic, is a sign of health??

Glycine could do this too Glycine intake decreases plasma free fatty acids, adipose cell size, and blood pressure in sucrose-fed rats. - PubMed - NCBI.
Forgot about glycine at all Protein High In Glycine And/or Taurine May Prevent Obesity
Low-dose Glycine As A Treatment For Menopause, Osteoporosis, Obesity
Glycine Powerfully Lowers Cortisol
Solid Evidence That Stress Causes Obesity

 

[Dessert_All_Day]

If anyone badly wants to lose fat in a hurry, I recommend the following:

(1) purchase a treadmill
(2) set incline to 10 (or whatever's max)
(3) start walking
(4) increase speed bit by bit
(5) repeat every day, adding multiple workouts per day as you feel more comfortable

 

[Dobbler]

If anyone badly wants to lose fat in a hurry, I recommend the following:

(1) purchase a treadmill
(2) set incline to 10 (or whatever's max)
(3) start walking
(4) increase speed bit by bit
(5) repeat every day, adding multiple workouts per day as you feel more comfortable

Or get the benefits of fresh air and nature and go walk to forest...

 

[Regina]

Glycine could do this too Glycine intake decreases plasma free fatty acids, adipose cell size, and blood pressure in sucrose-fed rats. - PubMed - NCBI.
Forgot about glycine at all Protein High In Glycine And/or Taurine May Prevent Obesity
Low-dose Glycine As A Treatment For Menopause, Osteoporosis, Obesity
Glycine Powerfully Lowers Cortisol
Solid Evidence That Stress Causes Obesity

Thx. Yep. It's in the stack. Before class today, I made a milkshake of milk, chocolate casein, strawberrries, chocolate sea salt caramel powder, glycine, taurine, lysine, inosine, sugar, aspirin, lil more salt, ice. Yum!

 

[Regina]

Summer is near and I think that some people here want to lose some weight (fat). Sorry for my english, I am using translater and it isnt perfect. Some introduction, I was at hospital 2 times, because of my heart at first, second time because of my liver. FIrst time, I had Myocarditis because of some type of virus, second, I had very very high liver enzymes ALT and AST. Nobody know why I have this problems. I was just doing what doctors told me, started working but I was feeling horrible, I had really big pain under my heart and near abdomen. Supplements like pregnenolone, androsterone or pansterone didnt help, I had problems with breathing when I took big dose. Alot of my experiments ended badly. I had about 2 weeks of home rest after my second hospital visit. I was thinking what I can do, was searching about why my ALT enzyme was 40x higher than normal. Haidut recommend me coffee and gelatin. I came home, started with peat diet (which means alot of sugar atleast for me) and coffee and gelatin. I wanted play it safe because I didnt want next problems. My enzymes were normal 2 weeks ago but I had horrible abdominal pain and I had problems with walking, whole body in pain. I had last chance, I used energin, applied it on my forehead, very small coffee and started searching. Problem was that niacinamide didnt help me, I thought that it could stop it. I finally found some usefull info and want share it with you. I will try to do some guide how to lose weight and start with peating. I will be using alot of by Haidut.

How to start:

About that - I thought that thiamine helps liver get ammonia out of body through urea so maybe somebody could explain how this work.





For members that think diet alone could work:


If you are trying really low fat diet:

Some threads abour protein: Potato Protein Soup Cooking Rules
Optimal Protein Intake Is Likely 20g-30g Per Meal
List of foods sorted by protein per calorie
Taurine Dramatically Improves Protein Utilization From Food
Amino Acid Supplementation For People With Poor Digestion

Summary about diet- Try find easy digestable foods
50-100 g of protein
nutrients- calcium, salts ( sodium, potassium, magnesium ) , selenium, B vitamins.
CRON-O-Meter: Track nutrition & count calories for tracking nutrients
fat solubles vitamins A, D, E, K
at least twice as many carbs as the grams of protein in each meal

Magnesium supplement-

Here are some food choices and next things: Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, And General Guidelines

In terms of my enzymes:

Next usefulls things from start as Haidut wrote: CO2, mitochondrial uncoupling, building muscle.

-

Thiamine- sign that your CO2 is low


and magnesium.
Thiamine Reduces Both Lactate And Ammonia
Using Vitamins (thiamine) For Improving Glucose Control
Thiamine Is A Carbonic Anhydrase Inhibitor As Effective As Acetazolamide
Thiamine Acts Similarly To DCA And May Be Helpful In Cancer



- about Haidut´s experience with Thiamine-









and-


I dont know if I could use this as guidelines but when we take that

And that



Biotin- Using Vitamins (biotin) For Improving Glucose Control

B6- Using vitamins (pyridoxine) for improving glucose control

Caffeine- Alot of members recommend to start with liver protocol or cleaning of its fat. Its great idea but
And this is reason why



-


-https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/caffeine-reverses-stress-insulin-resistance-hypertension.7729/#post-98445
- Topical Caffeine For Weight Loss





-for digestive issues- Caffeine Increases Both Gastric Acid And Pepsin Levels

- effects like DNP-

-caffeine tolerance- Full tolerance to stress response of caffeine within 4 days

-Anti estrogen- Caffeine Is A Potent Anti-estrogen; Can Block Estrogen "receptor" Completely

-Against caffeine jitters- taurine, theanine, pregnenolone - Theanine Restrains The Over-stimulating Effects Of Caffeine

-carbonic anhydrase inhibitor- Caffeine Is A Carbonic Anhydrase Inhibitor

-surrogate for thyroid- Caffeine Acts Like Supplemental Thyroid - It Suppresses TSH / GH

-Oxidal is uncoupler too- Methylene Blue (MB) Uncouples Respiration
Oxidal - Liquid Dietary Supplement For Oxidation Support




-uncouplers-

-pregnenolone for more muscle- The Anabolic Effects Of Pregnenolone
Pregnenolone For Obesity And Insulin Resistance

-Last things about fat loss-




-https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/hyperthermia-as-treatment-for-depression.11052/#post-146348

Its not all and I will work on it, I welcome every next idea about what I am missing.

EPIC!! Thank you.

 

[Broken man]

EPIC!! Thank you.

I am glad that you like it but I found that its not complete. I think that I will do next thread or I will write it as comments here.

 

[Optimus]

Appreciate the thread,
I would like to know @haidut 's current take on this issue and dosing of aspirin, niacinamide and caffeine for such cases where weight gain is being seen. I have gained about 10 lbs. Interestingly, although most of the gain seems to have gone to my gut area, gut seems to have only gone up by 2-3 lbs and my face actually looks quite lean (once back when I was 'bulking' and reached this weight, my face actually had gained a lot of fat too). I suspect, at least in part, some gain on peat diet also happens in the bone mass too.

Edit: and yeah someone pls change the thread title to more catchy or appropriate title such as 'compilation of weight loss strategies' etc so that more people can contribute. I believe this is one of the most recurring issues on this diet and should be properly dealt with.

 

[raypeatclips]

I agree this topic needs a better title for the effort that has gone into it. Very informative read it's good to have relevant quotes all together.

Thanks @Broken man

 

[Broken man]

@charlie could you please change the title? Maybe something like weight loss strategies or what to do to prevent weight gain on peat diet? Thank you guys, @Optimus and @raypeatclips , problem is that I found alot of next information on this topic but I cant edit my previous post.

 

[raypeatclips]

@charlie could you please change the title? Maybe something like weight loss strategies or what to do to prevent weight gain on peat diet? Thank you guys, @Optimus and @raypeatclips , problem is that I found alot of next information on this topic but I cant edit my previous post.

Make a new topic with a better title and ask mods to delete this one? Or just let this one fizzle out?

 

[walker_in_aus]

This is awesome and great for people who are sick and anxious and just can't make logical steps in learning from this forum without spiralling off. It's also a great representation of how health is based on the major factors of lifestyle and diet, and supplements should come after that. I know I am always guilty of looking for the "ultimate" supplement or "missing piece of the puzzle" and forgetting the human body is a big complicated system so better to have strong foundations and tweak with supplements, rather than bombard with supplements, have no solid foundation, and stress out about having no idea what is affecting what.

 

[LadyRae]

Thx. Yep. It's in the stack. Before class today, I made a milkshake of milk, chocolate casein, strawberrries, chocolate sea salt caramel powder, glycine, taurine, lysine, inosine, sugar, aspirin, lil more salt, ice. Yum!

Realizing that this is an old thread, I understand that my comments might not be seen or responded to however, I wanted to mention that I have been restricting methionine and instead getting most of my protein from hydrolyzed beef gelatin and a multi-collagen powder. I also eat lots of fruit. I have been making big bowls of jello with blended fruit and gelatin powder and then I will put a coconut Cool whip on top. It is decadent.

I decided to start this experiment after I heard about the study where mice dropped huge amounts of fat even when eating more calories, when methionine was restricted.

I have noticed so far that I sleep better and I am warmer all the time, my hands and my cheeks most notably. And I am a tall lanky person that will often times have cold fingers...

How has the fat loss gone for those of you in this thread?