"I Have Liver Issues And I Am Not Making Progress"

[tara]

You are right! Many health benefits to being short! :) and even if we gave him a few yrs of growth hormone he'd probably still be below average, I am not sure yet. I think it would be a last resort. I have deformed wrists that only started after the shots. Also my feet grew very long! I'm a 9!

Bad luck with your wrists.
I'm not sure if Jeanne Calment ever reached 5'.

 

[Jennifer]

No I'm having a good experience with it cause I'm flushing afterwards. Good to hear It probably broke a "stone" that was causing you pain, and you didnt had any noticable side effects from it. But the stuff is still there behind closed doors. It can cause more trouble if it's free on the roll' and ready to attack new parts, with other effects on the body and mind.

next time when you have a similar attack, try a tablespoon of Epsom salt in a glass of water, it will bring you relief

Gotcha!

Thank you very much for the tip! :)

 

[chispas]

I want to narrow the gap between results and theory from Peat.

Back when I joined this discussion, I was coming off a semi paleo meat+veggie diet, and embracing Matt Stone, and looking at how to prevent further weight gain.

What became very apparent was how prevalent liver dysfunction was, and the remedies that people were using to fix it. The end goal was a liver that could convert thyroid hormones effectively, generate needed hormones, and handle sugar in large amounts. People were detoxifying Pufa, using Caffeine in large amounts, B vitamins, hormones, aminos...or trying to address endotoxin and digestion to take away the burden on the liver.

People still come to the forum and ask for help...and when is it NOT liver problems?? Go back to help threads that get good response and Liver is ALWAYS mentioned.

I want to hear from people who this just did not work on, and what kind of lifestyle you lead. I want to hear from people who have downed large amounts of Caffeine and still do not have a functioning metabolism. I want to hear from liver health seekers that are failures.

I am working on the theory that to have a clean effective liver, the basis for health, you need good kidneys and adrenals. To have good kidneys and adrenals, you need a non-exciting life. Very low amounts of stimulation. I believe that the people who liver cleansing is not working for have some type of stimulation that needs to be addressed before they can make progress.

The big ones I have discovered:

•EMF...had a six month battle of getting out of a hot spot, and living somewhere EMF dead.

•Growing up with a single mother for boys seems to basically turn on the adrenals from a young age and until this history is dealt with, they will remain on. I think the low testosterone and wimpy boys phenomenon is basically too much stimulation compromising liver function from bad kidneys. Stefan Molyneux has helped me a lot with this but I still struggle.

•Free glutamate in food seems to go along with the autistic spectrum stimulation thing. Some people seem fine with it, others it makes into ADD zombies.

•Not enough calcium and too much phos. This is tough because calcium seems to be stimulating on its own without enough vitamin A.

•Not having a purpose in Life, not believing in something meaningful...nihilism, hopelessness. This turns people towards hedonism which is basically the art of stimulating yourself.

Glycine will help with the aspergic mannerisms/personality, as well as defend against glutamate, and protect kidney health 100%. So that's three birds killed with one stone.

 

[Jennifer]

Really? Is this the one you mean? Elymus repens - Wikipedia (not this one: Cynodon dactylon - Wikipedia)
I've been musing for years about if only the couch/twitch was good for something, since I have such an abundance of it. :) A bit of a job to get them clean enough to make tea out of, though.

Yep, I think that's the one! It also goes by agropyron repens and I see that it's included under synonym names on the elymus repens page. I was happy to discover dandelion was good for kidneys for the same reason. My yard contains more dandelions than it does grass. lol

 

[yerrag]

Thanks for the write up here. You are being very detailed, which is awesome for making progress. I always found the really ground breaking stuff when I was extremely detailed oriented. Although it can be draining. The trap that I have fallen into is assigning an experience to a specific process happening in the body. It is useful to have descriptions, but I always remember that I do not know the whole story. I am not sure if your better sleep and raised temp is due to what you describe. True the fat could trigger more bile, but maybe it also just supported your blood sugar more then usual(like you mentioned), or the gelatin lowered inflammation more then usual. There are way too many details to account for to get a real picture that is very detailed. But that does not mean we shouldn't try. And a murky looking map is better then no map at all.

The real underlying point is that you moved towards something that was better then what you were experiencing before. The question I would ask now is...is that move repeatable? Did it work once or twice and then no more? Can you drink this fat rich drink every night and get the same result? Or at some point do you have worse sleep and feel heavy? The journey is funny because all you really have is this murky map and you are moving towards what you think is good, oriented towards what you think is better then where you are now. But there are all these forks and sometimes they lead to dead ends and you have to double back...and sometimes you realize the whole trail you are on is not oriented towards something that is actually good and you have to pick up and get on that other trail over there.

Some other things to consider. There may be some overlap between urine and stool for detoxification, but from the reading on phase 1 and 2 detox, I did not get the sense that you body could go with whatever was more convenient. There is some process where toxins have an affinity for the pathways.

You're so right about needing more confirmation. The next evening I wasn't able to replicate the experience I shared with you, but it's also because it wasn't an apple to apple comparison, as I did not replicate to a T what I did the day before. I'll try to keep things more consistent over the next few days and see if I can really confirm that having more fats before sleeping would lessen my urination and help form more stools, on the assumption that the increased excrement stems from the detoxification therapy I currently am undergoing.

I'm not sure either if I an influence the detox pathway to favor going the fecal route over the urinary route. It's just that I've been keen on observing little facets of change, and thought this observation merits some consideration, even as I need to confirm it with more observation.

 

[Daniel11]

Some of you may find this info helpful, i have not done myself, but looks very interesting.

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[tara]

My yard contains more dandelions than it does grass. lol

Mine too. :)

 

[Amazoniac]

niacinamide also shifts methyl groups from methionine. This is probably a necessary result of taking niacin without folate. In natural foods, these are found in balanced proportions. This is a good thing to keep in mind. Effectors of methyl balance now officially include B₁₂, folate, methionine, and niacin.

Methionine Depletion

 

[Travis]

I actually did quote a bit of reading about homocysteine. I actually forms a stable free radical, leading to lipid peroxidation. An examination of cerebospinal fluid in Alzheimer's disease revealed a Pearson's correlation of .924 between homocysteine and hydroxynonenal, a lipid peroxidation product—a crosslinking aldehyde, like malondialdehyde.

⟵click to embiggen

And there is much more evidence that this.

But what I said in the above quote was incorrect. It's vitamin B₆ that I was thinking about, not niacin. Pyroxidal is a coenzyme for the two enzymes which convert homocysteine to cystathionine.

Cystathionine then becomes harmless cysteine and ketoglutarate in a separate, pyroxidal-dependent step.

Vitamin B₁₂ and folate lower homocysteine concentrations as well, and lower levels are routinely found in homocysteinuria. These two vitamins methylate homocysteine back to methionine. I think the vitamin B₆ pathway is better.

So ignore the above quote. What I meant to say was:

...niacinamide pyroxidal also shifts methyl groups from methionine. This is probably a necessary result of taking niacin without folate. In natural foods, these are found in balanced proportions. This is a good thing to keep in mind. Effectors of methyl balance now officially include B₁₂, folate, methionine, and niacin pyroxidal.

 

[Amazoniac]

I actually did quote a bit of reading about homocysteine. I actually forms a stable free radical, leading to lipid peroxidation. An examination of cerebospinal fluid in Alzheimer's disease revealed a Pearson's correlation of .924 between homocysteine and hydroxynonenal, a lipid peroxidation product—a crosslinking aldehyde, like malondialdehyde.

View attachment 6579 ⟵click to embiggen

And there is much more evidence that this.

But what I said in the above quote was incorrect. It's vitamin B₆ that I was thinking about, not niacin. Pyroxidal is a coenzyme for the two enzymes which convert homocysteine to cystathionine.

Cystathionine then becomes harmless cysteine and ketoglutarate in a separate, pyroxidal-dependent step.

Vitamin B₁₂ and folate lower homocysteine concentrations as well, and lower levels are routinely found in homocysteinuria. These two vitamins methylate homocysteine back to methionine. I think the vitamin B₆ pathway is better.

So ignore the above quote. What I meant to say was:

NAD+ and Vitamin B3: From Metabolism to Therapies | Journal of Pharmacology and Experimental Therapeutics
"High doses of nicotinamide administered orally or through injection are transiently metabolized in liver to increase NAD+. However, nicotinamide at elevated doses can cause hepatotoxicity. Nicotinamide is methylated to form 1-methylnicotinamide and downstream oxidized pyridones as metabolic end products (Knip et al., 2000). Large doses of nicotinamide cause methyl donor depletion (Knip et al., 2000). A large portion of nicotinamide administered to rats at 500 mg/kg was excreted unchanged within 12 h after injection. The remainder of nicotinamide was generally excreted as methylated or oxidized forms of the pyridine (Knip et al., 2000). At nonpharmacologic doses, nicotinamide is lost, mostly by excretion of the catabolic products, rather than as the unmetabolized vitamin."

Here it is:
https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s001250051536.pdf

 

[Travis]

Hepatic methylation using l-methionine as a methyl donor is important in the detoxification of nicotinamide [23]. The product of this reaction, N-methyl-nicotinamide, is excreted by the kidneys whereas nicotinamide is resorbed by the renal tubules. For this reason, only small amounts of the unchanged vitamin appear in the urine even at pharmacological doses of nicotinamide. N-methyl nicotinamide is oxidized in thee liver, a process that is saturated at high circulating concentrations, and the end products are N-methyl-2-pyridone-5-carboxylic acid amide (2 pyr) and N-methyl-4-pyridone-3-carboxylic acid amide (4 pyr). The ratio of the two metabolites differs with species and sex. In humans 2 pyr [⇓] is formed exclusively. ―Knip*

So the methylated variety is formed exclusively at near perfect yield, but so are thousands of other drugs and metabolites. But the low toxicity of niacin makes it seem like one of the safer way to "mop-up" methyl groups, although I can't think of a very good reason to do this. However, the B-vitamins #12 and #6 are used enzymatically, as cofactors. So one B₁₂ molecule can participate in numerous methylations before it is excreted, and B₆ can participate in untold homocysteine⟶cystathionine condensations before it's ceremoniously retired at the end of it's useful life. Folate is more necessary than B₁₂ for methyl transfers, but B₁₂ is thought to "regenerate" folate. So without B₁₂, folate can only be used once.

Central to methylation is homocysteine. With the aforementioned three vitamins and low methionine, homocysteine levels can be kept down. Serum levels range from 6 μmol/L in healthy young Japanese to 20 μmol/L in severe cases of Alzheimer's disease. Extremely high levels, over 100 μmol/L, can be seen in hyperhomocysteinuria and is always found conjoined with symptoms of severe cognitive slowness (IQ≈60).

So the very first methylation-related priority should probably be keeping homocysteine levels down with folate, vitamins B₁₂ and B₆. Homocysteine readily cross the blood–brain barrier (r≈.85 for plasma and CSF homocysteine) and initiates lipid peroxidation which can then go on to create the crosslinking aldehydes hydroxynonenal and malondialdehyde. Homocysteine was shown in vitro in about 5–10× times elevated normal concentrations to cause lipid peroxidation and destroy acetylcholine transferase activity 40–70% after one week. This enzyme makes acetylcholine, and this could help to explain the neurological symptoms. Low acetylcholine levels are always found in Azheimer's and seem to be the common denominator, and lipid peroxidation―be it from iron, aluminum (by displacing iron), or homocysteine―can lower acetylcholine levels by impairing acetylcholine transferase.

As Ray Peat has mentioned before, the brain contains an unusually-high amount of polyunsaturated fatty acids. We must avoid excessive iron, homocysteine, and aluminum to avoid lipid peroxidation in the brain.

*Knip, M1, et al. "Safety of high-dose nicotinamide: a review." Diabetologia43.11 (2000): 1337-1345.
[23]Fumagalli, R. "Pharmacokinetics of nicotinic acid and some of its derivatives." Metabolic effects of nicotinic acid and its derivatives (1971): 33-49.

 

[Xisca]

As Ray Peat has mentioned before, the brain containes an unusually-high amount of polyunsaturated fatty acids.

That is why some say, as we anyway have those in our brain, we need to "change" them for clean ones, but with the right ratio of omega 3 to the 6, like with hemp seeds...

 

[Mito]

So the very first methylation-related priority should probably be keeping homocysteine levels down with folate, vitamins B₁₂ and B₆.

What do you think about Chris Masterjohn's ideas about decreasing homocysteine by supplementing (or dietary changes) to decrease the demand for methyl groups? https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/08/12/living-with-mthfr/

There is some discussion about it in this thread Lack Of Methyl Donors, Demethylation, Folic Acid, B12

The context is low MTHFR enzyme activity leading to low methyl folate production/recycling (thus making it impractical to supplement folate to lower homocysteine).

 

[Travis]

Vitamin B₆ is the most powerful, and has been shown to decrease homocysteine levels the most dramatically: from over 100 μmol/L down to 10 μmol/L in hyperhomocysteinuria. I like this pathway the most because it creates cysteine⟶taurine.

Vitamin B₁₂ and folate decrease the levels less-powerfully by, unfortunately, creating methionine again. These could then potentionaly become the powerful growth-stimulating polyamines. These are highly involved in cancer, as can be seen here.

Someone should replicate the classic methione-feeding studies done on rats, but with add vitamin B₆ and folate. Perhaps these two vitamins would significantly detoxify excessive methionine before it can shorten lifespan?

I should read more about the methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase genetic polymorphisms. But by having problems here, the inability to synthesize thymidine seems, to me, more of an issue that homocysteine.

Folate is also involved in acetylcholine production. Acetylcholine has a triple-methylated amino group and is ubiquitous, so it appears to have quite high methyl demands. Low acetylcholine reduces spatial learning and is an important neurotransmitter. Mecalmylamine, inhibitor of acetylcholine receptor, always produces near Alzheimer's-like reductions in reaction time and word recall tests. Low acetylcholine levels/receptors are consistent findings in Alzheimer's. Acetylcholine comes ultimately from serine: serine⟶phosphotidylethanolamine⟶phosphotidylcholine⟶choline⟶acetylcholine.

Lack of acetylcholine is the likely mechanism for folate-related cognitive dysfunction.

Under conditions of folate deficiency, brain membrane content of the methylated phospholipid phosphatidylcholine was significantly depleted [...] The correspondence of cognitive outcomes to changes in brain membrane phosphatidylcholine content suggests that altered phosphatidylcholine and possibly choline metabolism might contribute to the manifestation of folate deficiency-related cognitive dysfunction.

But melatonin could be involved as well. Melatonin is basically acetylated and methylated serotonin.

 

[Daniel11]

We were talking about ways to enhance kidney functioning earlier in this thread, i recently reviewed some interesting information on the use of nettle seed to improve kidney and adrenal functioning.

I have worked with netted root and nettle herb over the years but never with the nettle seed, the following information is quite encouraging.

“Restoration of kidney function due to mechanical damage is traditionally not considered possible, either by either conventional or herbal medicine. The following case reports show normalization of elevated creatine levels using nettle seed as the primary herbal remedy.”

Case History: Nettle Seed & Kidney Function

 

[tara]

I have worked with netted root and nettle herb over the years but never with the nettle seed, the following information is quite encouraging.

Hmm. I'd just read somewhere (as usual, forgotten where) that the seeds were irritants for the UT, and was thinking I should make sure to remove them when I make soup.

 

[Daniel11]

Hmm. I'd just read somewhere (as usual, forgotten where) that the seeds were irritants for the UT, and was thinking I should make sure to remove them when I make soup.

I wouldn't want to eat the whole seeds even in soup, i doubt they would get digested and absorbed well, seeds are best used medicinally as extracts, other sources say the seeds are good for the urinary track. I have not experimented with them yet but the information looks promising. Maybe you could find the info you are referring to.

Maybe someone could give Rosemary Gladstar a call i bet she would know...

David Winston's Resources | Simple Herbal Extracts

 

[Xisca]

Some of you may find this info helpful, i have not done myself, but looks very interesting.

Join us for the Interpreting Your Genetics Summit from August 21-28, 2017!

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About genetics, how is it possible to say that coffee is good for liver problems?
1) for what problems exactly?
2) for what persons?
... my genetics say that I am not good at detox cafeine by liver.... so what? coffee or not coffee for my liver problems? And my problems are phase I and phase II liver detox!

 

[Broken man]

About genetics, how is it possible to say that coffee is good for liver problems?
1) for what problems exactly?
2) for what persons?
... my genetics say that I am not good at detox cafeine by liver.... so what? coffee or not coffee for my liver problems? And my problems are phase I and phase II liver detox!

Vitamin K-2 ? Or caffeine, coffee is problem for me too but caffeine isn´t.

 

[Xisca]

We cannot mention K2 without mentionning the problem for people having a tendency to clog.... I know some people can be killed by vitamine k2....
and what's its use for liver?
cafeine has to be detox by liver too.