Iron Metabolism And Liver Health

[FredSonoma]

I was completely lost until I got my blood tests. This all just happened in the last few days so I am no expert by any means I just wanted to share what I've been learning from others/what has worked for me. Everything is always different depending on the individual so you need to listen to your instincts on how you respond to different substances.

Have you had blood tests?

Estrogen isn't the only factor in iron metabolism you also need good vitamin D levels, low inflammation, zinc/copper. Saturated fat and beef protein is very anti-inflammatory and has lots of zinc/copper. Don't worry about the iron in it, just my 2c.

Gut issues deserves its own thread but what helps me is: cod liver oil, fermented foods ( sauerkraut/yogurt ), not eating starch.

I haven't since November - Finally got some bloodwork! Main problems are bloating, bad digestion, weight gain, glycogen storage

I definitely definitely definitely have gut issues - and do find sauerkraut to be delicious. However, it gives me some of the same issues as starch ( I think because of inulin in the cabbage, pickles don't do the same thing).

 

[michael94]

I don't think it's that but maybe Preg/DHEA are increasing certain nutrient requirements that you are deficient in by raising metabolism? You need to eat what you are craving and/or get blood work otherwise it's a guessing game lol. The body is very complex, maybe others with more Preg/DHEA experience can chime in. Ideally these sorts of things would be taught to all doctors and you could see one regularly who closely resembles Dr. Peat but we don't live in that world unfortunately...

 

[haidut]

Could this be why Preg and DHEA make me feel really tired - they are lowering stress hormones?

If basal metabolic rate is low, it is very possible. If things like theanine and glycine also make you feel tired in doses of 200mg - 500mg then it is likely stress hormones you are running on. Same "test" can be done with about 5mcg - 10mcg T3 - if taking it makes you feel tired and sleepy then you are running mostly on stress hormones.
That being said, higher doses of pregnenolone and/or progesterone should raise metabolism on their own. I think the doses needed for that are in the 300mg+ range daily. I posted a few threads on the mechanism but it has to do with the metabolite allopregnanolone activating the bile acid receptor, which triggers conversion of T4 into T3. There is a very big difference in effects from 10mg and 300mg pregnenolone. The lower dose is mostly anti-stress as it stays as pregnenolone in tissues. The higher dose converts massively into downstream steroids mostly through the progesterone pathway and as such as a progesterone-like effect.

 

[FredSonoma]

If basal metabolic rate is low, it is very possible. If things like theanine and glycine also make you feel tired in doses of 200mg - 500mg then it is likely stress hormones you are running on. Same "test" can be done with about 5mcg - 10mcg T3 - if taking it makes you feel tired and sleepy then you are running mostly on stress hormones.
That being said, higher doses of pregnenolone and/or progesterone should raise metabolism on their own. I think the doses needed for that are in the 300mg+ range daily. I posted a few threads on the mechanism but it has to do with the metabolite allopregnanolone activating the bile acid receptor, which triggers conversion of T4 into T3. There is a very big difference in effects from 10mg and 300mg pregnenolone. The lower dose is mostly anti-stress as it stays as pregnenolone in tissues. The higher dose converts massively into downstream steroids mostly through the progesterone pathway and as such as a progesterone-like effect.

Okay I will try a larger dose of pregnenolone! Do you think I should try it with pure preg or with Preg + DHEA? Also, really interesting that you say that as I just drank a cup of green tea with milk and sugar + homemade gelatinous bone broth and I feel extremely tired. I'd agree it is very likely I'm running on stress hormones, as Tyromax also makes me feel tired / cold a lot of times.

 

[michael94]

The more we drink milk (rich in calcium) the more we deplete vitamin D because it needs to remove free-roaming calcium from our tissues to avoid calcification. Vitamin D works in funny way depending on how much calcium we consume.

I think that you may be onto something but doesn't almost all dairy come with vitamin D? and doesn't dietary calcium lower intracellular levels? It is not adding up.

I'd like to see evidence that dairy is raising intracellular calcium levels and if possible if there's a discrepancy with full fat dairy vs skim, grain fed vs grass fed, homogenized vs not. Where did you see that dairy lowers vitamin D levels? If that is true it is probably an important consideration.

 

[Strongbad]

I think that you may be onto something but doesn't almost all dairy come with vitamin D? and doesn't dietary calcium lower intracellular levels? It is not adding up.

I'd like to see evidence that dairy is raising intracellular calcium levels and if possible if there's a discrepancy with full fat dairy vs skim, grain fed vs grass fed, homogenized vs not. Where did you see that dairy lowers vitamin D levels? If that is true it is probably an important consideration.

It's discussed multiple times in this thread.

BTW, I like gbolduev. His and kineticz posts make lots of sense to me. It's about balance, even some level of estrogen is good (depending on personal's genetic). Asians are highly estrogenic but look super young. Makes sense.

I highly recommend people to read gbolduev's responses on IP6 For Iron Chelation thread. He makes lots of great points, especially about overall balance.

 

[FredSonoma]

Just wanted to add, I'm going through this thread again and even more things are clicking. (I also want to add something about kineticz ideas also click with me)

1. I love how cocoa makes me feel - but I do feel that it's hurting me long-term (too much of a dopamine agonist?)
2. I love the taste of vinegar, I crave it often and can drink it
3. I can eat huge amounts of beef at all times lol
4. I have high iron, definitely have liver problems
5. In the past 2 days I have successfully added in Preg / DHEA (Pansterone) and for the first time since I purchased it (more than 6 months ago) it is making me feel better - more relaxed, more focused, etc.

icecreamlover What do you think is the biggest thing I should do? I really think my problems are all in my liver / iron overload. Add more fat and L-Carnitine? I do eat a good amount of fat but I am predominantly running on sugar (I drink a lot of soda, lots of coffee / green tea with sugar, drink OJ, etc. I'm always consuming sugar, at waking hours lol)

Also, how do you feel about green tea? I know it poses some problems for the liver, but I have to say that it feels like the most delicious thing in the world to me right now. I have caffeine / theanine pills but green tea is so much more satisfying.

 

[michael94]

Sounds like you are craving polyphenols (green tea, cocoa, vinegar ) and no I wouldn't worry about the cocoa or green tea so long as you want it.

See: https://sci-hub.io/10.1016/j.cbi.2010.10.002 It's a very good read. You definitely have SIBO and your body is attempting to correct that.

Don't worry about the iron. Yes it's a big problem but your body will sort that out with a good diet ( plus I don't think you can even know 100% without a liver biopsy ). Saturated fat and the things you are already eating ( beef, polyphenols, reducing sibo ) are very protective of the liver. You can try low dose methylene blue if you really want in addition to the pansterone. L-carnitine is a good supplement but if you're eating lots of red meat it's not too necessary. Mushrooms, spinach, artichoke etc would be nice additions and make meals less boring.

With regard to sugar intake it depends how you're feeling. You can try lowering it a bit in favor of sat fats and see how you feel.

 

[Giraffe]

Cod liver oil isn't just my experience but literally that of millions of people spanning many generations. In basically every study I have read it has led to increase markers of health not decreased.

As in it lowers cholesterol?

 

[Strongbad]

Just wanted to add, I'm going through this thread again and even more things are clicking. (I also want to add something about kineticz ideas also click with me)

1. I love how cocoa makes me feel - but I do feel that it's hurting me long-term (too much of a dopamine agonist?)
2. I love the taste of vinegar, I crave it often and can drink it
3. I can eat huge amounts of beef at all times lol
4. I have high iron, definitely have liver problems
5. In the past 2 days I have successfully added in Preg / DHEA (Pansterone) and for the first time since I purchased it (more than 6 months ago) it is making me feel better - more relaxed, more focused, etc.

icecreamlover What do you think is the biggest thing I should do? I really think my problems are all in my liver / iron overload. Add more fat and L-Carnitine? I do eat a good amount of fat but I am predominantly running on sugar (I drink a lot of soda, lots of coffee / green tea with sugar, drink OJ, etc. I'm always consuming sugar, at waking hours lol)

Also, how do you feel about green tea? I know it poses some problems for the liver, but I have to say that it feels like the most delicious thing in the world to me right now. I have caffeine / theanine pills but green tea is so much more satisfying.

Iron toxicity only occurs if you're low in glutathione (very important antioxidant). Ironically, glutathione is rapidly depleted with high sucrose and glucose diet:

Effect of s-methyl-L-cysteine on oxidative stress, inflammation and insulin resistance in male wistar rats fed with high fructose diet.

High glucose decreases intracellular glutathione concentrations and upregulates inducible nitric oxide synthase gene expression in intestinal epithelial cells

Lots of vegetables, especially green vegetables like brocolli, kale etc. are good precursors for glutathione. There're also transdermal "reduced glutathione" cream for supplement, too.

 

[skycop00]

Iron toxicity only occurs if you're low in glutathione (very important antioxidant). Ironically, glutathione is rapidly depleted with high sucrose and glucose diet:

Effect of s-methyl-L-cysteine on oxidative stress, inflammation and insulin resistance in male wistar rats fed with high fructose diet.

High glucose decreases intracellular glutathione concentrations and upregulates inducible nitric oxide synthase gene expression in intestinal epithelial cells

Lots of vegetables, especially green vegetables like brocolli, kale etc. are good precursors for glutathione. There're also transdermal "reduced glutathione" cream for supplement, too.

I now make my own in my "Chemistry kitchen"

 

[FredSonoma]

Iron toxicity only occurs if you're low in glutathione (very important antioxidant). Ironically, glutathione is rapidly depleted with high sucrose and glucose diet:

Effect of s-methyl-L-cysteine on oxidative stress, inflammation and insulin resistance in male wistar rats fed with high fructose diet.

High glucose decreases intracellular glutathione concentrations and upregulates inducible nitric oxide synthase gene expression in intestinal epithelial cells

Lots of vegetables, especially green vegetables like brocolli, kale etc. are good precursors for glutathione. There're also transdermal "reduced glutathione" cream for supplement, too.

Okay interesting, I do find that those green vegetables in particular (broccoli and kale) smell extremely delicious, but I avoid them because they give me bloating / gas. I will try having some baby kale and see how I feel.

However, I do want to note that I believe I developed a lot of my health problems while following a loosely based "Terry Wahls" - like diet - lots and lots of beef organ meat (kidneys, liver, heart, as well as ground beef), gelatinous bone broth, huge amounts of kale (1.5-2 bunches / day), lots of animal fat, and other "colored" vegetables / berries - and I did that for about 12 months. However, I was avoiding Omega-6, but ate Omega-3 pretty frequently. While I have different issues then I did back then, I am undoubtedly far healthier now (eating a pretty typical noob Ray Peat "diet" - OJ, milk, coffee, cocoa, gelatin, meat, soda).

 

[Strongbad]

Okay interesting, I do find that those green vegetables in particular (broccoli and kale) smell extremely delicious, but I avoid them because they give me bloating / gas. I will try having some baby kale and see how I feel.

However, I do want to note that I believe I developed a lot of my health problems while following a loosely based "Terry Wahls" - like diet - lots and lots of beef organ meat (kidneys, liver, heart, as well as ground beef), gelatinous bone broth, huge amounts of kale (1.5-2 bunches / day), lots of animal fat, and other "colored" vegetables / berries - and I did that for about 12 months. However, I was avoiding Omega-6, but ate Omega-3 pretty frequently. While I have different issues then I did back then, I am undoubtedly far healthier now (eating a pretty typical noob Ray Peat "diet" - OJ, milk, coffee, cocoa, gelatin, meat, soda).

I won't say that you're in better health if you have liver problems. Liver is the source of methylation, cellular health, cardiac output and kidney function. If your liver is compromised, so is your thyroid.

Bloating / gas also means that you're low in stomach acid. Again, liver issue is the source of this, most likely your niacin/NADH too. I won't be surprised if you start developing some bacterial (candida) overgrowth symptoms due to low stomach acid.

Curious, what health problems did you develop when following Terry Wahls? I'm not aware of him and his diet, BTW.

 

[FredSonoma]

I won't say that you're in better health if you have liver problems. Liver is the source of methylation, cellular health, cardiac output and kidney function. If your liver is compromised, so is your thyroid.

Bloating / gas also means that you're low in stomach acid. Again, liver issue is the source of this, most likely your niacin/NADH too. I won't be surprised if you start developing some bacterial (candida) overgrowth symptoms due to low stomach acid.

Curious, what health problems did you develop when following Terry Wahls? I'm not aware of him and his diet, BTW.

Terry Wahls is something kineticz posted but I found it a while back, it's based on extremely nutrient dense meat (organ meats) and tons of vegetables. She calls it "minding your mitochondria." I didn't develop anything while following it, I got something called Reactive Arthritis and then started following it because of that. While I slowly recovered from the Reactive Arthritis, I came out the other side a much worse version of my earlier self. I agree that liver problems are very serious and central to a lot of things, but I am undoubtedly much healthier now than I was while eating a lot of meat and vegetables - of course there are many factors involved. By much healthier I just mean my ability to be in a good mood / get work done / think / have energy / look attractive to girls lol / have libido

 

[dd99]

Terry Wahls got a lot of publicity after her TEDx talk where she showed photos of herself in a wheelchair with MS. She claimed her high vegetable diet cured her. She, predictably, launched a diet plan off the back of it, called The Wahls Protocol.

 

[michael94]

The thing people tend to miss with stone age diets is they think buying meat and veggies at a supermarket is somehow equivalent to eating fresh and often times raw meat off a carcass, like stone age cultures would have done. I believe the Masai and inuit eat quite a bit of their meat raw and it's almost always fresh. Fresh and raw meat is very high in prebiotic glycans and glycogen plus likely a whole host of other things we're not privy to. Primitive cultures will also eat ***t filled innards and stomach lining occasionally.

So...Trying to live off beef and veggies from the grocery store is going to leave some major holes in your nutritional needs especially concerning gut microbiota. People say fresh meat tastes sweet.

 

[Strongbad]

Terry Wahls is something kineticz posted but I found it a while back, it's based on extremely nutrient dense meat (organ meats) and tons of vegetables. She calls it "minding your mitochondria." I didn't develop anything while following it, I got something called Reactive Arthritis and then started following it because of that. While I slowly recovered from the Reactive Arthritis, I came out the other side a much worse version of my earlier self. I agree that liver problems are very serious and central to a lot of things, but I am undoubtedly much healthier now than I was while eating a lot of meat and vegetables - of course there are many factors involved. By much healthier I just mean my ability to be in a good mood / get work done / think / have energy / look attractive to girls lol / have libido

Not surprised that you are in good mood / energetic etc. Sugar raises serotonin which raises dopamine. Dopamine gives you all that good feeling etc.

Interestingly enough, Ray Peat warns the danger of high serotonin level.

IMO, if you follow Terry Wahls diet but adding some occasional carbs and sugar, you should be in a great shape, having the benefits of both worlds (Wahls and Peat).

The thing people tend to miss with stone age diets is they think buying meat and veggies at a supermarket is somehow equivalent to eating fresh and often times raw meat off a carcass, like stone age cultures would have done. I believe the Masai and inuit eat quite a bit of their meat raw and it's almost always fresh. Fresh and raw meat is very high in prebiotic glycans and glycogen plus likely a whole host of other things we're not privy to. Primitive cultures will also eat **** filled innards and stomach lining occasionally.

So...Trying to live off beef and veggies from the grocery store is going to leave some major holes in your nutritional needs especially concerning gut microbiota. People say fresh meat tastes sweet.

I'd be really cautious about eating raw food (raw meat, raw vegetables) due to high risk of tapeworm/roundworm/liver flukes investation. They're serious business, worse than candida overgrowth.

 

[tara]

What I took away from it was that the most important matter in deciding your vision was how much close up work you were doing. The more you had your head in books and wrote the worse your vision became.

Yeah. I think there is also some evidence about not just close up work, but just being inside a lot. People who spend a lot of time outside (eg farmers) get to stretch their vision to the horizon, not just the nearest wall (craftsmen) or the sheet of paper/screen in front of their face.

High glucose decreases intracellular glutathione concentrations and upregulates inducible nitric oxide synthase gene expression in intestinal epithelial cells

I just looked at the first para, did not keep reading. It looks as though this study is about hyperglycemia in diabetes. This is not the same as high glucose intake. Diabetes is about having difficulty with oxidising sugar efficiently. One way some people seem to create this problem is to eat a low carb diet for too long. Some people with very high carb consumption have fasting BG levels lower than some very low-carbers. I think a lot of people here would agree that it is generally preferable not to have the metabolism go diabetic.

Okay interesting, I do find that those green vegetables in particular (broccoli and kale) smell extremely delicious, but I avoid them because they give me bloating / gas.

You can just drink the water they cook in and ditch the cooked leaves if you want - a lot of the minerals will be in the water.

 

[supernature]

Low estrogen lowers ceruloplasmin as well as raises hepcidin which blocks the export of iron from the liver

It seems that if Estrogens are low, that lowers Ceruloplasmin and makes Copper bioUnavailable with all the consequences regarding copper-iron metabolism, so how the compensatory mechanism of this would look like, then?
The Estrogens rises in case to retain the important copper, maybe!?


If Hepcidin is raised- due to high body iron, that should lead to decreased Ferroportin as this decreases the export of iron from the liver as you said, it also decreases the import of iron from the intestines into the blood into Transferrin. We assume here the reasons could vary, including inflammation (anemia of inflammation)...

If Hepcidin is lowered- due to low body iron or hemochromatosis, then the Ferroportin should be high (negative feedback), so there should be increased export of iron from the liver as well as increased import of iron from the intestines into the blood into Transferrin.

 

[lindsay]

Not surprised that you are in good mood / energetic etc. Sugar raises serotonin which raises dopamine. Dopamine gives you all that good feeling etc.

Interestingly enough, Ray Peat warns the danger of high serotonin level.

I'm pretty sure you will find plenty of people on here (myself included) who've been prescribed serotonin elevating/sensitizing drugs in the past and who've had major health issues as a result. Sure it CAN make you feel better temporarily, but at what cost?