"I Have Liver Issues And I Am Not Making Progress"

Discussion in 'Toxins, Detoxification' started by Tarmander, Jul 24, 2017.

  1. Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    I want to narrow the gap between results and theory from Peat.

    Back when I joined this discussion, I was coming off a semi paleo meat+veggie diet, and embracing Matt Stone, and looking at how to prevent further weight gain.

    What became very apparent was how prevalent liver dysfunction was, and the remedies that people were using to fix it. The end goal was a liver that could convert thyroid hormones effectively, generate needed hormones, and handle sugar in large amounts. People were detoxifying Pufa, using Caffeine in large amounts, B vitamins, hormones, aminos...or trying to address endotoxin and digestion to take away the burden on the liver.

    People still come to the forum and ask for help...and when is it NOT liver problems?? Go back to help threads that get good response and Liver is ALWAYS mentioned.

    I want to hear from people who this just did not work on, and what kind of lifestyle you lead. I want to hear from people who have downed large amounts of Caffeine and still do not have a functioning metabolism. I want to hear from liver health seekers that are failures.

    I am working on the theory that to have a clean effective liver, the basis for health, you need good kidneys and adrenals. To have good kidneys and adrenals, you need a non-exciting life. Very low amounts of stimulation. I believe that the people who liver cleansing is not working for have some type of stimulation that needs to be addressed before they can make progress.

    The big ones I have discovered:

    •EMF...had a six month battle of getting out of a hot spot, and living somewhere EMF dead.

    •Growing up with a single mother for boys seems to basically turn on the adrenals from a young age and until this history is dealt with, they will remain on. I think the low testosterone and wimpy boys phenomenon is basically too much stimulation compromising liver function from bad kidneys. Stefan Molyneux has helped me a lot with this but I still struggle.

    •Free glutamate in food seems to go along with the autistic spectrum stimulation thing. Some people seem fine with it, others it makes into ADD zombies.

    •Not enough calcium and too much phos. This is tough because calcium seems to be stimulating on its own without enough vitamin A.

    •Not having a purpose in Life, not believing in something meaningful...nihilism, hopelessness. This turns people towards hedonism which is basically the art of stimulating yourself.
     
  2. theLaw

    theLaw Member

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    I tried the high-caffeine protocol, and had a very difficult time recognizing a stress response, which led to a host of different problems.

    My current theory about this is that high-caffeine primarily works for those who already have their diet in check (macros + micros + low fat, no starch, and plenty of carb sources (fructose is best) steadily throughout the day).

    In my opinion, the problem with the caffeine + k2 protocol is the dosing. You must start very slow and build up over weeks while supporting is with enough nutrition.

    My suggestion for anyone having liver issues :

    1. take 1T of sugar/fructose powder/honey/4oz juice (fresher the better) each waking hour along with Taurine to balance blood sugar.

    2. Use niacinamide + thiamine + aspirin throughout the day to block the release of ffa into the blood stream

    I do have my doubts about the caffeine + k2 protocol working for anyone whose diet is less than 100%, as many people try to use is as a shortcut.
     
  3. OP
    Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    This is some good input on the caffeine protocol for sure. I did not really want to focus in on that protocol in particular, but more make the point that these protocols tend to not produce long term results. You clear your liver for awhile, and then your stimulating lifestyle puts you back where you were before you did it. In other words, people don't have liver problems, they have stimulation/kidney/adrenal problems.
     
  4. Ewlevy1

    Ewlevy1 Member

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    How we fix the metabolism as you know is not an easy answer and sometimes we can discuss a specific mechanism as validity. For examples, liver, thyroid, intestine, etc... are common topics or areas that need to be fixed. I've been on this journey through Dr. Peats wisdom for 3.5 years now; initially I was focused on tremendous outcome from lab work, temp, pulse, and emotional energy feedback from food. Eventually I found that I needed to work on myself and how the environment affected me on top of my nutrition. At this point in time, my temp and pulse are rock solid and relative energy and emotional wellness and far ahead of where I was...basically a new person. However, I can't say that my metabolism, liver, thyroid, gut are 'cured' as life is always evolving. I know how to play better defense and proactively prep for perceived, life stressors. With all this being said, I think you are dead on in the fact that a person needs to spend more time getting to know themselves which will go hand and hand with nutrition. Based on Peats wisdom, I've tried virtually every method and combination to date that he has discussed; but if I do not create the life I truly want, then the fuel of my metabolism should not be the only focus.

    For example, I'm improving my social life with specific tasks as I cornered myself with work for 7 years. As apart of my social choices, there are points that I eat foods which depress my energy function or deliver improper function. However, I'm learning that my style of life needs to be a life worth living. If I have a bad meal, I'm learning to understand that the interaction and connection is the anti-stress mechanism to poor food. Next day I'll use my mushrooms on my own time to recover (as example).

    Not sure it's an answer you're looking for...but I think you're on the right track.
     
  5. TubZy

    TubZy Member

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  6. theLaw

    theLaw Member

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    Would this be after someone gets rid of stored pufa?

    It appears that these issues resolve themselves after liver is cleaned, digestion is improved, and stored pufa is removed.

    I would ask anyone the following questions as a litmus test:

    1. Have you had a blood test to find any nutrition deficiencies or imbalances?

    2. Have you tried a strict Ray Peat type diet including low fat, zero starch, and fresh fruit juices for at least 30 days (including necessary macros and micros)?

    3. Can you take 400mg of caffeine in the form of coffee in one sitting without a stress response?


    Finally, if all else fails, I would go through the "daily allowances" that VOS posted:

    Just as an example, if you focused on 1 single heading from this list each week, you would cover all of them in 90 days. Consistency!!!
     
  7. Orion

    Orion Member

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    I tried the caffeine protocol for about 3.5 weeks at 1200mg, in attempts to improve liver blood sugar storage and heal any fibrosis, and agree with @theLaw if you are not efficient at burning sugar the stress response can be a roller coaster ride.

    It has taken me a long time in take in all the RP interviews, articles, and search this forum to the bottom of the well then experiment with it all... and still not understanding why all this knowledge was still backfiring on me.

    What has got everything heading in right direction for me is focusing on uncoupling, blocking beta oxidation, blocking glycolysis and supporting glucose oxidation. This is the state where cells are burning glucose efficiently in the relaxed high energy state, keeping minerals in balance and sucking in cholesterol, thyroid and vitamin A and making pregnenolone -> progesterone/DHEA. I believe even though I was low zero PUFA for years, zero starch and doing all the Peat ideals, I was stuck in fat burning mode.

    I am using most things on the uncoupler list @theLaw posted above and having some real nice short term success so the experiment continues.
     
  8. Regina

    Regina Member

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    :emoji_cartwheel::emoji_cartwheel: routing for you. Thx for the update on what works/has worked.
     
  9. theLaw

    theLaw Member

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    This is something that I can't seem to reconcile about Peat's interviews.

    Peat consistently suggests 2 quarts milk + 2 quarts OJ added to someone'e normal diet, but as we've seen on this forum, most people appear to have a problem with this much liquid.

    He also rarely ever talks about how to limit the release of ffa into the blood stream, which appears to be a cornerstone of getting rid of pufa.

    So I wonder if there's something that I'm missing here? My only theory about this is that if you drink 4oz milk/4oz OJ every hour (4oz per 1/2hr) then you supply your liver with enough carbs and protein to keep your body from burning the pufa.:cool:
     
  10. tara

    tara Member

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    I strongly agree that it's important to meet nutritional needs.
    If a blood test shows nutritional deficiencies, I imagine that would be a flag worth noting.
    But I wouldn't rely on blood tests to confirm nutritional adequacy. I think the body can prioritise homeostatic range of minerals in the blood to a certain extent while depleting them in other tissues. And even someone in dangerous anorexic decline can show good blood mineral status.

    Isn't this a key reason he mentions small amounts of aspirin or niacinamide being often helpful?

    2 Quarts milk + 1 Q OJ? As part of or so sometimes as a basis of a diet, not necessarily added to what their previous 'normal' diet was?
    I suspect one reason people have trouble is that some try to drink that three quarts as three or four meal replacements - a lot of fluid at a time if one has low energy to deal with it - rather than , as you suggest, small amounts spaced through the day. Small amounts hourly or half hourly would not only provide more regular sugar supply, but also reduce the risk of over-stressing the water-handling mechanisms. Depending on a persons size, 2-3 litres of fluids like OJ and milk (containing their natural mineral electrolytes) spread out in half hourly intervals does not seem unreasonably much for most people even with a lowered metabolism.
     
  11. Dante

    Dante Member

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    How did you come to this conclusion - adrenals-kidney and liver ? Any biochemical rationale for this ?
     
  12. OP
    Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    Great write up, thank you. 3.5 years is a good chunk of time to really get into this. Would love to hear some specific breakthroughs you have had.

    That VoS thread was one of the first things I read on this forum, got me super pumped. But I have found that those dosages of the supplements are too high for me, and actually most people from what I have read.

    Here is the thing, are you going to take aspirin at 1g a day for the rest of your life? Let's say just 10 years? 18 cups of coffee? 1g+ of niacinamide? 5g of calcium and 2g of Magnesium? I have actually tried these amounts, and they are great for awhile but they seriously imbalance you overtime. My time-frame is years, and while you may take those amounts for awhile, your body will just not let you take those high dosages for years. Besides, if you can slam those amounts of supplements above and not become super unstable, your health is probably not as bad as you think.

    The theory is that the basis for longer term success at liver clearance and living a better life is going to come from the kidneys and the adrenals, and addressing those.

    So it comes a bit from my knowledge of Chinese medicine, and talking to practitioners of that field. They tend not to zero in as much on liver, and talk about how the organs effect each other. They have this thing called kidney chi, which is basically the vitality of the person. One thing I have learned is that to cleanse the liver puts stress on the kidneys, or lowers kidney chi. You can see this with something like fasting, or juice cleanses, or too much caffeine. It will cause a liver cleanse, but weaken the person. And if they continue chronically, they get dark circles under their eyes, too skinny, and wreck their metabolism.

    My conclusions comes from observing this, and people on this forum, who should have clean livers that enable a great metabolism...but don't...I don't have the science chops to frame it in a better way, but it's like the kidneys enable the liver to cleanse, and the lifestyle enables the kidneys.

    I agree, often people lacking calcium have large amounts of calcium in their blood.
     
  13. A.R

    A.R Member

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    This is very interesting because I'm experiencing kidney pain now after using antibiotics/glycine/k2.

    So would you suggest a person focuses more on kidney health rather than liver? And how so?

    Thank You
     
  14. Diokine

    Diokine Member

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    @Tarmander

    Understanding of how the kidneys function in metabolism is very important and I think tending to that tree will bring very good fruit. Chinese medicine has great descriptions of some of the different kinds of interactions between systems. Explanations given by practitioners of qi gong or tai chi are very helpful. I think it's safe to say that qi or chi is a very real thing and could be described as the electric field that maintains proper healthy tissue. It is something you can definitely feel.

    The kidneys are influenced heavily by the sacrum in some of these descriptions, and when the sacrum or pelvis are rigid and not generating chi correctly it will cause great disturbance. This can be described by the interaction of the kidneys with the autonomic nervous system, of which acetylcholine plays a substantial role. Imagining the relations between the sympathetic spinal nerves and their relation to the enteric nervous sytem of the gut is no real stretch. So some gut disruption (or really any disruption, nicotine, too much sympathetic activity from caffeine, etc.,) can grossly distort the ability of chi to manifest in living tissue by disruption of the nervous system that supports it.

    The situation with the liver is exactly the same, the liver is controlled largely by the nervous system.
     
  15. Dante

    Dante Member

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    @Tarmander ,
    " One thing I have learned is that to cleanse the liver puts stress on the kidneys " ---- Makes sense, as the liver makes toxins water soluble and then it's up to the kidneys to filter them out.


    " calcium seems to be stimulating on its own without enough vitamin A." ---- Could you clarify on this? I thought vit D, vit K, Mg were enough for proper utilization of calcium.
     
  16. Dante

    Dante Member

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    I remember Charlie was peeing out kidney stones after taking high amount of vitamin k2.
     
  17. oneZero

    oneZero Member

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    What leads you to believe you have liver issues in the first place? ie. what are your symptoms and why do you feel you are not making progress? Sounds like you have followed all of Peat's recommendations for liver health, however you haven't specified what it is exactly that is going on that makes you feel you still have liver issues that need addressing....
     
  18. ivy

    ivy Member

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    @Tarmander

    I've been Peating for a few months now and, even though I've seen improvements, most of my enduring symptoms seem to be liver/digestion related. The period when I did feel best, though, was when I supplemented with a custom made TCM formula. The original one is a classic herbal remedy known as Chai Hu Shu Gan Wan.

    The modified powder formula I took for about 5 weeks, 2-3 times a day, was made specifically to address the excruciating breast pain I was having, which was likely estrogen related. But even before that, I had structural and temperamental signs of liver imbalance - abdominal distension, for instance, and a tendency for anger arising from unspoken feelings. RP always points out that hypothyroid people have poor digestion and low stomach acidity. Well, TCM adds to that by proposing Liver-Qi invasion and PMS Liver-Qi invasion! So yes, I'll second your view on the valuable insights of TCM, which for me connected these dots. If you happen to live in the US, I can refer you to the practitioner who helped me and/or the dispensary where the herbs were prepared.

    I hear your concern about how impractical and burdensome the purported supplements might be long-term. There's possibly a convenient TCM maintenance formula, one I've tried on occasion is known as Soothe the Liver:

    Plum Flower Soothe Liver Teapills - Shu Gan Wan

    I haven't been able to discern its effects consistently, but it's cheap, and seems milder than the other one I mentioned (less prone to cause diarrhea). I'd say it's worth a shot!
     
  19. Wagner83

    Wagner83 Member

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    There are some things that I do not understand yet, if despite eating no fat and high carb one is still stuck in "fat burning mode", if muscles burn fat at rest (which is most of the time), and if one has to continuously take drugs to inhibit fat oxidation and drive glucose oxidation on then maybe the body knows better and we actually do need to burn (and eat) some fat? Could the levels of physical and brain activity play a part in how much carbs we need? What about the importance of nutrients? Is there somewhere along the way an ideal diet that will solve issues so that caffeine works fine or does it simply does not work for some of us? I read that people have stopped having blood sugar issues when they quit caffeine/coffee, or that their health improved weeks after stopping consuming it.
     
  20. theLaw

    theLaw Member

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    Agreed. Blood tests are great tools to get a good overview, but will not show all of the problems.

    Yes, Peat mentions both aspirin and niacinamide for this purpose. I was just pointing out that he doesn't always bookend his other general nutritional suggestions with this info which is vitally important to keeping ffas from being released into the blood stream and burned.

    As for the milk + oj, Peat dodges the question a bit in the quote above, but I think that he's said that those were in addition to a normal diet at first (Herb Doctor's show). I assume this is mainly for the calories, calcium, protein, and vitamins for someone who has been underfed. He has also stated that someone can live off of OJ + skim Milk as the base of their diet and lose weight.

    Great points Tara!:cool:
     
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