Haidut On Iron And Copper

[TNT]

I was asking someone about how to deal with iron overload and copper imbalance without going through Morley Robbins' protocol. They suggested I look up what @haidut has said in this forum about iron and copper. I did a search, and it's like looking through a needle in a haystack. Could someone please point me to the right thread where I can learn about this?

 

[ecstatichamster]

Copper imbalance?

 

[TNT]

Yeah, copper imbalance is where you're deficient while also having too much. Copper toxicity, but the copper you have isn't bioavailable, so you're copper toxic and deficient at the same time.

 

[sunraiser]

Yeah, copper imbalance is where you're deficient while also having too much. Copper toxicity, but the copper you have isn't bioavailable, so you're copper toxic and deficient at the same time.

Maybe it's better not to think of it as a "condition you must fix" so to speak i.e. don't call it copper toxicity. You're simply not metabolising copper properly. Once you start metabolising copper properly, you'll no longer have unbound copper.

Your body WILL resolve any excess copper - it's designed to remove unneeded metals and toxins, though perhaps once you have energy you can help it through tolerable and enjoyable exercise.

If at all possible try to get a ceruloplasmin blood test just to see where you are.

Here's a thread that discusses it:

Help. I Am Taking Copper And Still Have Deficiency!

I have found iodine plays a role in this particular area as well in that it seems to be a limiting factor for both metabolic health but also allowing metabolism of T3 conversion cofactors (i.e. if you're not taking in enough iodine your body will restrict zinc/magnesium/selenium and this will impact your uptake of copper and iron. If you don't eat non organic dairy or seafood very regularly then a small (150-250mcg) iodine supplement is an option.

It's generally irresponsible of me to suggest stuff because I don't and can't know your full personal context, I just wanted to state having SOME iodine intake is very important in general :)

 

[TNT]

Thank you, @sunraiser . But do you happen to know where I can read what @haidut has said about this issue?

 

[sunraiser]

Thank you, @sunraiser . But do you happen to know where I can read what @haidut has said about this issue?

can't help with that one!

 

[empoweredliving]

I was asking someone about how to deal with iron overload and copper imbalance without going through Morley Robbins' protocol. They suggested I look up what @haidut has said in this forum about iron and copper. I did a search, and it's like looking through a needle in a haystack. Could someone please point me to the right thread where I can learn about this?

I do hair tissue mineral analysis & many health authorities put hair tissue test down because they DON"T know how to read it. It took me 5 years to learn how to read any hair test & know the patterns. It is not something you learn in a book or seminar. Hair Tissue analysis saved me and hundreds of my clients who do protocols without understanding how food supps affects their NERVOUS System. Copper affects our nervous system big time! Copper overload is related to malfunctioning liver which is also deficient in minerals and vitamins. One of which is Vitamin A retinol. Some people come to Peat after years of low carb nuts or vegetarians nuts and grains. This leads to copper imbalance. It requires a hair test to pinpoint the exact ratio between copper and zinc. In fact, it is all the ratios put together that shows the exact biochemical blueprint of the individual. I have seen many miserable stories on this forum like any other forum and Facebook group & as a nutritional researcher I gather these statistics. Why some people do well and others don't is BIOCHEMICAL individuality. Hair Tissue Test is the best for pinpointing exactly where the person has been & where they are going. I work with women who recently had hysterectomies & when I do their hair test I see why. They all had HIGH COPPER which is toxic copper and it is also BIO-Unavailable. Copper is needed for Thyroid hormones it is needed for 300 biochemical processes including making bones. High copper is the classic estrogen dominance pattern due to sluggish malfunctioning Liver and mineral deficiency. BTW I don't agree with Dr Lawrence Wilson's protocol & I do my own but the actual hair test is PRICELESS if you wait for blood tests to show you what is going on, it can be too late. When things DO show up on BLOOD tests & you need to do SO many of them to gather some picture. it is usually a pronounced disease condition. I have watched people die this way slowly doing protocols. I do hair tissue analysis worldwide & have interviewed Ray Peat in 2009 most people MISS what he says about Vitamin A. In Wellness!

 

[Dobbler]

While hair testing is probably incredible helpful, the prices for the testing and supps are ridiculous. But if you can spend like 400 dollars every month + keep sending new hair + ordering new supps every second month, go for it. It feels to me like a big ******* scam.

 

[vulture]

I also started taking a look at the subject and it's not a test I can perform on a lab at my city, seems like a pretty close industry that even makes you hire a third party, you seem to be unable to send the hair to the lab, they have some subscribed professionals and they are intermediary between you and the lab, kinda fishy for me and I haven't seen any serious evidence about why shall we perform such tedts

 

[TNT]

Thank you, @empoweredliving . I have already done a hair test, but that's not what I'm asking about. I'm asking what @haidut has said about iron overload and copper imbalance.

 

[Mito]

Should I treat my high cortisol?
“In your case I would actually supplement iron, not copper. Copper can bring iron down even more, as they are antagonistic in a sense. Have you had your copper tested, as well as ceruloplasmin? I would not supplement copper without knowing where I stand on that. With iron levels that low your copper may be high and the neurological symptoms you have may be related to that copper excess. Also, copper excess is well known to elevate cortisol, which I think you also had issues with. Did you find out what is the reason for the high cortisol? Did you have a dexamethasone suppression test? Furthermore, if copper is high it suggests your estrogen is also high. You can do a blood test and use this information to correlate it to tissue levels.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7509&p=95287&hilit=estrogen+ratio+luteal#p95287
Finally, 8mg of copper daily is too much. The human studies found symptoms of copper toxicity at doses above 4mg, especially in women.
As a rule of thumb, whenever you test iron it should always be combined with serum copper and ceruloplasmin, zinc, and manganese. These metals have very intricate relationship and testing one without the others gives a very misleading picture.
Anyways, I think in your case even Ray would be OK with supplementing iron. Your case is one of the few real cases of iron deficiency anemia in adults. Have you asked him about it?
Btw, try to get the copper, zinc and manganese tests I mentioned before supplementing iron. It will tell you how much you need to supplement.”

Biomarker For Liver Iron Overload

 

[TNT]

Thank you, @Mito .

 

[Mito]

Not Haidut, but informative

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/02/03/manage-copper-status/

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/01/27/need-manage-iron-status/

 

[empoweredliving]

While hair testing is probably incredible helpful, the prices for the testing and supps are ridiculous. But if you can spend like 400 dollars every month + keep sending new hair + ordering new supps every second month, go for it. It feels to me like a big ******* scam.

Thank you, @empoweredliving . I have already done a hair test, but that's not what I'm asking about. I'm asking what @haidut has said about iron overload and copper imbalance.

To fix iron overload you need to REGENERATE your liver & improve VITAMIN A status. When I do hair testing I only do it for the Test not the diet or supps. It is not individualised enough hence people see it as a scam. Unless you have a genetic condition hemochromatosis an iron overload is a symptom of a mineral deficiency, a malfunctioning liver & a psychological state. It is most likely FINE on a blood test but in real life, it is not upto speed. There is also a psychological aspect to iron overload & that shows up on the test. IF the person does not make the mind/body emotional shift mineral pattern does not improve. I worked with a robust male who had iron overload low copper lots and lots of painful inflammation, injuries not healing after years of physio, digestive issues & he was ageing fast. After working with me the inflammation has gone iron went down minerals more balanced & more progress to go. The protocol was his & not Dr Wilson's. When I pointed out what the iron overload is it made sense & it was a pattern from his teenage years. That is HOW you read a hair test. Psychology, stress, trauma pushing minerals in direction of adaptations. This is how burnout happens. As Peat would say the Reductionist view is - to treat the body without the concept of energy is like treating dead matter.

 

[Mat_Eire]

@empoweredliving So what steps u recommend to follow to regenerate your liver and improve your vitamin A status?

 

[Dave Clark]

All this sounds like Morley Robbin's protocol to me, get retinol, bio-available copper, do HTMA tests, etc., etc. Not saying that testing isn't important, but I have yet to meet anyone who turned their health around specifically because of testing, they made changes that could of been made without testing just using good nutritional sense. I am not saying there aren't people out there, just that I have not met any, yet. I think part of the problem is that practitioners don't know what to do with the results. I had hair, blood, fecal urine, bio-energetic tests, etc. and none of them were useful to my doctors as far as treatments. It was changes that I intuitively made through the years that helped me.

 

[Mat_Eire]

All this sounds like Morley Robbin's protocol to me, get retinol, bio-available copper, do HTMA tests, etc., etc. Not saying that testing isn't important, but I have yet to meet anyone who turned their health around specifically because of testing, they made changes that could of been made without testing just using good nutritional sense. I am not saying there aren't people out there, just that I have not met any, yet. I think part of the problem is that practitioners don't know what to do with the results. I had hair, blood, fecal urine, bio-energetic tests, etc. and none of them were useful to my doctors as far as treatments. It was changes that I intuitively made through the years that helped me.

Ive noticed the same. May I ask which changes u noticed as more useful? seems vitamin A helps me

 

[Dave Clark]

Ive noticed the same. May I ask which changes u noticed as more useful? seems vitamin A helps me

I would say retinol, too, in particular for my allergy symptoms. I was already starting to experiment with the RCP, when I heard Robbins and Masterjohn talk about retinol helping allergies. I basically switched vitamin c to wholefood and less grams of it, added beef liver caps for copper and retinol, stopped taking high dose vitamin d and just use a Sperti D lamp, stopped taking zinc in supplemental form, etc. Pretty much of what I changed is the RCP, but I do not do cod liver oil because of the PUFAs. I have not done a hair analysis, I would think about it if I was confident in a practitioner properly evaluating it, but otherwise I am just monitoring my symptoms.

 

[TNT]

Why did you stop taking zinc supplements, @Dave Clark ?

 

[Dave Clark]

Why did you stop taking zinc supplements, @Dave Clark ?

Well, I felt based on my reading, that if I had a diet with adequate zinc, which most people have if they eat foods high in zinc like meat, etc. that additional zinc was going to suppress my bio-available copper and consequently my ceruloplasmin creating imbalance. Zinc stimulates a protein that can not only bind to copper, but to zinc. Ironically, I read all the time that people who have quit zinc supplements tested with higher levels of zinc, this could be the reason (the non-stimulation of this metallothionine, not sure of the spelling). I think a small amount of zinc in a supplement may be fine, but the doses seen in most formulas that are 30 mg and over may be causing more problems than they solve. Then of course if you add to that high doses of ascorbic acid (vitamin C), that can mess with copper metabolism as well. Lately, I am trying to get my minerals from food sources, with the exception of magnesium and some selenium. So, I guess in short, to answer your question, is that I am sort of cherry picking the RCP based on what seems to make sense to me, and since I eat things relatively high in zinc, I elected to eliminate it in supplement form and see how it goes.