On Iron, Copper And Phlebotomy

jyb

Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,771
Location
UK
The accumulation of iron and other heavy metals, and of unsaturated fats, and the progressive loss of copper under the influence of the stress of darkness, are probably the central events in the process of aging.

For about 50 years, it has been known that blood transfusions damage immunity, and excess iron has been suspected to be one of the causes for this. People who regularly donate blood, on the other hand, have often been found to be healthier than non-donors, and healthier than they were before they began donating.

1) RP mentions briefly that regular phlebotomy (blood removal, eg by blood donation) is beneficial to reduce iron. I understand donating dilutes the serum iron, but what happens to iron stores in the liver?

2) Is the damage caused to veins in the process (phlebotomy every 2 or 3 months) problematic? I often hear that repeated need insertion causes damage (eg in drug users). It seems like its related to frequency, so do it heal properly over time? I also read anecdotal opinions that donating might be bad because it also removes other beneficial things like immunity factors.

3) RP's quote on iron accumulation and loss of copper makes it sounds like one has some stores of copper which empty out as we age. Does simply eating more copper replenish the stores? If it is so important, why isn't supplementing copper advocated - unless liver or oysters once a week are enough?
 

SheilaHelm1

Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2012
Messages
81
Age
51
Location
Lancashire UK
Hi Jyb, can't answer your questions but fwiw I fill a copper cup with water in the morning put it by my bed and by the time I go to bed the water has accumulated enough daily copper and I use it to down my NDT at bed time.
This is apparently an Ayurvedic way to get enough copper, I've seen it on a lot of ayurvedic websites. I got my copper cup from an indian hardware shop in the UK.
 

jyb

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,771
Location
UK
SheilaHelm1 said:
Hi Jyb, can't answer your questions but fwiw I fill a copper cup with water in the morning put it by my bed and by the time I go to bed the water has accumulated enough daily copper and I use it to down my NDT at bed time.
This is apparently an Ayurvedic way to get enough copper, I've seen it on a lot of ayurvedic websites. I got my copper cup from an indian hardware shop in the UK.

That's interesting. Even on Amazon, where those Ayurvedic cups are available, these health properties are advertised.

IIRC RP also does something similar, cooking with a copper pan.

Do you have any references or evidence relating to this practice? Need to know for example if the copper quantity you'd get is significant, what happens if you put boiling water (don't need to wait as long to get the same quantity?) etc
 

Cathi

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
6
This would seem like a simple way to get copper. It does get absorbed even though its a metal? Definitely going to check into it.
 

pboy

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
make mushroom broths to get copper, and if you didnt know 1oz dark chocolate has about 55% daily value copper! (one of the highest natural sources). I think you'll get enough on a typical peat diet for the most part. From what I understand about iron is that non supplemental iron is relatively well regulated by your body and you wont absorb more than you need unless you hyperdose which is really hard to do with food.
 

narouz

Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
4,429
I've got sky-high ferritin,
so I've been meaning to start regular blood donation for a while.
I kinduv hate it, so I think I've been subconsciously procrastinating. :oops:
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,770
Location
USA
Need me to hold your hand, narouz? :rolling

I for one thought we were getting plenty of copper on this diet. And IIRC Ray Peat said that the thyroid regulates copper.
 

jyb

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,771
Location
UK
pboy said:
make mushroom broths to get copper, and if you didnt know 1oz dark chocolate has about 55% daily value copper! (one of the highest natural sources). I think you'll get enough on a typical peat diet for the most part. From what I understand about iron is that non supplemental iron is relatively well regulated by your body and you wont absorb more than you need unless you hyperdose which is really hard to do with food.

Re copper: drinking water out of a copper cup seems easier than making mushroom borth ;)

Re iron: RP recommends coffee and/or milk at the same time as iron rich foods, to reduce absorption. I think the body will always absorb some iron, even if it has stores, which is why caution is needed with iron rich food in the context of improving metabolism.
 

jyb

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,771
Location
UK
Charlie said:
Need me to hold your hand, narouz? :rolling

I for one thought we were getting plenty of copper on this diet. And IIRC Ray Peat said that the thyroid regulates copper.

With lots of chocolate possibly. But commercial chocolate bars give me mild acne, even quality stuff like Green & Blacks (free of soy lecithin). I'm sure about it, I don't have acne otherwise on a Peat diet.
 

pboy

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
jyb said:
pboy said:
make mushroom broths to get copper, and if you didnt know 1oz dark chocolate has about 55% daily value copper! (one of the highest natural sources). I think you'll get enough on a typical peat diet for the most part. From what I understand about iron is that non supplemental iron is relatively well regulated by your body and you wont absorb more than you need unless you hyperdose which is really hard to do with food.

Re copper: drinking water out of a copper cup seems easier than making mushroom borth ;)

Re iron: RP recommends coffee and/or milk at the same time as iron rich foods, to reduce absorption. I think the body will always absorb some iron, even if it has stores, which is why caution is needed with iron rich food in the context of improving metabolism.


indeed...if only I had one. I eventually wanna get a copper pot but they're like 1-300 dollars!

Sorry if this is a newbie question...but how does iron effect metabolism? Like...do you want as little as possible or is some necessary but just very little. I eat a lot of greens and total probably around 200% daily iron req each day, and about 100% copper or a little less. Could I stand to benefit from reducing iron intake? And how does iron effect metabolism...does it just bog your system down by becoming oxidized or is there some other mechanism?
 

Asimov

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
162
Donating blood twice a year will do absolutely no damage to your veins. The venipuncture is usually healed within a few days. The reason junkies have problems collapsing veins is they're literally popping into the same veins multiple times a day.
 

gretchen

Member
Joined
Nov 30, 2012
Messages
816
SheilaHelm1 said:
Hi Jyb, can't answer your questions but fwiw I fill a copper cup with water in the morning put it by my bed and by the time I go to bed the water has accumulated enough daily copper and I use it to down my NDT at bed time.
This is apparently an Ayurvedic way to get enough copper, I've seen it on a lot of ayurvedic websites. I got my copper cup from an indian hardware shop in the UK.

That's a great suggestion, thanks.
 

jyb

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,771
Location
UK
pboy said:
jyb said:
pboy said:
make mushroom broths to get copper, and if you didnt know 1oz dark chocolate has about 55% daily value copper! (one of the highest natural sources). I think you'll get enough on a typical peat diet for the most part. From what I understand about iron is that non supplemental iron is relatively well regulated by your body and you wont absorb more than you need unless you hyperdose which is really hard to do with food.

Re copper: drinking water out of a copper cup seems easier than making mushroom borth ;)

Re iron: RP recommends coffee and/or milk at the same time as iron rich foods, to reduce absorption. I think the body will always absorb some iron, even if it has stores, which is why caution is needed with iron rich food in the context of improving metabolism.


indeed...if only I had one. I eventually wanna get a copper pot but they're like 1-300 dollars!

Sorry if this is a newbie question...but how does iron effect metabolism? Like...do you want as little as possible or is some necessary but just very little. I eat a lot of greens and total probably around 200% daily iron req each day, and about 100% copper or a little less. Could I stand to benefit from reducing iron intake? And how does iron effect metabolism...does it just bog your system down by becoming oxidized or is there some other mechanism?

Maybe a good reason to investigate the copper glass suggestion, should be much cheaper.

Re iron: if not already I suggest you read RP's article on iron. And on vegetables too since you are eating greens ;)
My vague understanding is that iron can oxidize and also displace the copper in the key respiratory enzymes.

It also accumulates in the brain along with other heavy metals in Alzheimers. (So does copper though?)
 

jyb

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,771
Location
UK
I wanted to get an idea of how much copper you'd get from water left overnight in a copper glass.

It seems like you get a 10-30mg copper from a liver meal.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312355/

Safety of leached copper does not appear to be an issue since studies have shown that the current WHO guideline of 2 mg Cu/L is safe (19,20), and the levels leached in the study were 1/20th of the permissible limits

This means an overnight water in copper pot gets about 0.1 mg/L of copper. So, even drinking a litre of that water (excessive), one gets a negligible amount compared to liver (but apparently enough to kill bacteria in the water).


Peat mentions getting copper from his copper cooking utensils. I'm guessing this means copper leaches more with heat and/or acidic food. Wikipedia seems to agree

When acidic foods are cooked in unlined copper cookware, or in lined cookware where the lining has worn through, toxic amounts of copper can leech into the foods being cooked

and even says it leaches toxic amounts. Would leaving an acidic beverage like coca-cola or coffee overnight in a copper glass give a reasonable amount (significant but not excessive)?
 

jyb

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,771
Location
UK
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1951709/

has a few relevant experiments measuring copper in beverages left in copper tube. When pressure if applied, OJ gets < 10 ppm copper, a bit more for a carbonated cola drink (equiv to coca cola?).

One might probably get less when leaving a cup sit in a room (no pressure).
 

jyb

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,771
Location
UK
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/67/5/1098S.short

Mentions the story of people getting copper toxicity (symptoms were temporary digestion issues) after preparing a cocktail in a copper shaker.

The acidic ingredients is what enhanced copper leaching, in this case whiskey and lemon juice (other ingredients, sugar, eggwhite, water). I'm guessing the lemon juice is what really matters (lowest pH).

It seems like 10mg was enough to make them ill (the nurses on 5mg did not get ill). However, this is less than what you get in a liver meal, and from 2L of pipe water when water is acidic in some areas of the US.

From this it seems like squeezing some lemon into a copper cup filled with water and left in the fridge for 2 hours might get a significant amount of copper.

From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1951709/ a non-carbonated solution of pH range 3.50-3.66 seems to give a significant yet non-toxic amount.

This should help the right dosage of lemon juice. It has pH of 2-3, so for a cup of water maybe a few drops of juice is enough.
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,770
Location
USA
Jyb I appreciate you pulling all this information together.

Do you really think we need to go about getting more copper like this? I have not concentrated on this subject yet so I just do not know. Like I said above, I thought Peating would have enough.
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,770
Location
USA
Is there a certain amount of copper we are shooting for?

And IIRC, I thought Ray Peat said the thyroid regulates copper. So definitely want to have good thyroid function too.
 

jyb

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,771
Location
UK
Charlie said:
Is there a certain amount of copper we are shooting for?

And IIRC, I thought Ray Peat said the thyroid regulates copper. So definitely want to have good thyroid function too.

Well, the RDA for copper is 2mg. I don't know if its something we should be aiming for daily. I don't think I get the RDA as I don't eat loads of chocolate, at least the days I don't eat shellfish or liver. This seems like a simple alternative, simpler than cooking with an expensive copper pan.
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,770
Location
USA
Ok, I guess I need to check into whether I am getting enough.

So much to think about! :lol:
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
michael94 Oysters Iron Copper Content Disparity Seafood 0
T Haidut On Iron And Copper Miscellaneous Health Discussions 21
T Dense Iron/Copper-Induced Blood Clots Linked To Brain, Eye, Heart, And Diabetic Diseases; Remedies Articles & Scientific Studies 2
D Low Copper, Iron And Ferritin Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 6
M Copper Without Iron Diet 5
S Anaemia/ Copper/ Iron Blood Work, Labs 2
S Vitamin C Fine With Zinc; Bad With Copper (or Iron) Macros & Micros 1
A Iron metabolism in aging Scientific Studies 0
J Am I good to eat red meat with H63D gene as long as i donate blood, eat iron rich foods with calcium Minerals 0
TacoVampire Blood work/ endo/ fatigue / low iron Blood Work, Labs 5
D Anemia in senior male - any iron metabolism Wizards / practitioners in here? Ask For Help or Advice 2
username I Need Help Understanding My TSH And Complete Iron Panel Blood Work, Labs 7
A Onions Increase The Amount Of Iron Absorbed From Grains Ask For Help or Advice 7
A Would Drinking Coffee Along With Turmeric Inhibit Iron Absorption? Ask For Help or Advice 5
A My Iron Levels Are Ok? Ask For Help or Advice 0
A Exposure Of Iron Knife With Food Ask For Help or Advice 14
haidut Alcohol Brain Damage Due To Iron Accumulation; Vitamin B1 To The Rescue Scientific Studies 3
ecstatichamster Ray Peat Interview #35: CO2, Ketosis, And Mitochondria | PUFA, Sugar, Iron, And AGEs | Progesterone And Cell Stabil Danny Roddy 21
Ms.Orchid Need Some Help Figuring Out Iron Labs Blood Work, Labs 1
S Symptoms Of Anemia Despite Iron Supplementation Female Issues 4
B Magnesium Fixed My Iron Overload Testimonials 12
Frankdee20 Good Dose Of Creatine ? Not For Pumping Iron Ask For Help or Advice 8
J Red Meat And Bad Sleep - Iron Overload? Insomnia, Sleep Issues 11
S High Iron Saturation, Normal Ferritin Blood Work, Labs 1
ampersand Ataxia, Iron, Methylene Blue, Niacinamide Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 2
S.Seneff Russia Compounds That Chelate Iron And Inhibits Potential Mitochlndrial Calcium Overload Scientific Studies 1
md_a IRON And Covid-19 Scientific Studies 0
md_a Vitamin C Helps Covid-19 Infected Patients By Regulating Iron? Scientific Studies 5
M Anti-Peat Dietary (organic) Iron Does Not Increase Tissue Iron Debate - Anti-Peat 40
md_a High Levels Of Iron In The Lung Linked To Increased Asthma Severity Scientific Studies 0
md_a Bacterial Endotoxin (lipopolysaccharide) Stimulates The Rate Of Iron Oxidation Scientific Studies 1
Jake sullivan Iron Bits Found In Refined Sugar? Sugar, Honey 12
Max. Drink White Grape.juice Can Increase Iron? Diet, Recipes 3
Such_Umami Fasting To Lower Iron Content? Ask For Help or Advice 2
Such_Umami Question Regarding Iron Ask For Help or Advice 1
T Please Help With Confusing Iron Test Blood Work, Labs 5
zarrin77 Glycine Completely Protects Liver Cells From Apoptosis Due To Iron Scientific Studies 1
postman What Foods Are The Lowest In Iron? Diet 0
Evgenij UVA Radiation Leads To An Immediate Increase In The Free Available Iron Scientific Studies 1
M Iron Lowering Effect Of Aspirin Ask For Help or Advice 5
Lokzo Does Vitamin E Chelate/Lower Iron Or Just Protect Against Excess? E 7
J Iron Ask For Help or Advice 2
Lokzo Look What I Did To My Iron Levels! Blood Work, Labs 40
B Iron Overload - What Could Be Causing This? Blood Work, Labs 13
haidut Two Common Iron Supplements May Cause (aggressive) GI Cancer Scientific Studies 5
G Low Iron With High Ferritin - How Do I Interpret This? Ask For Help or Advice 13
S Iron Intake Diet 1
T Iron Deficiency May Be Behind The Dangers Of Antipsychotic Drugs Scientific Studies 5
Luann Iron Oxides In Makeup? Body Care 2
olive Gelatin Enhances Non-gene Iron Uptake, Glycine Does Not Scientific Studies 3

Similar threads

Top