On Iron, Copper And Phlebotomy

Discussion in 'Health' started by jyb, Jan 30, 2013.

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  1. jyb

    jyb Member

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    1) RP mentions briefly that regular phlebotomy (blood removal, eg by blood donation) is beneficial to reduce iron. I understand donating dilutes the serum iron, but what happens to iron stores in the liver?

    2) Is the damage caused to veins in the process (phlebotomy every 2 or 3 months) problematic? I often hear that repeated need insertion causes damage (eg in drug users). It seems like its related to frequency, so do it heal properly over time? I also read anecdotal opinions that donating might be bad because it also removes other beneficial things like immunity factors.

    3) RP's quote on iron accumulation and loss of copper makes it sounds like one has some stores of copper which empty out as we age. Does simply eating more copper replenish the stores? If it is so important, why isn't supplementing copper advocated - unless liver or oysters once a week are enough?
     
  2. SheilaHelm1

    SheilaHelm1 Member

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    Hi Jyb, can't answer your questions but fwiw I fill a copper cup with water in the morning put it by my bed and by the time I go to bed the water has accumulated enough daily copper and I use it to down my NDT at bed time.
    This is apparently an Ayurvedic way to get enough copper, I've seen it on a lot of ayurvedic websites. I got my copper cup from an indian hardware shop in the UK.
     
  3. OP
    jyb

    jyb Member

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    That's interesting. Even on Amazon, where those Ayurvedic cups are available, these health properties are advertised.

    IIRC RP also does something similar, cooking with a copper pan.

    Do you have any references or evidence relating to this practice? Need to know for example if the copper quantity you'd get is significant, what happens if you put boiling water (don't need to wait as long to get the same quantity?) etc
     
  4. Cathi

    Cathi Member

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    This would seem like a simple way to get copper. It does get absorbed even though its a metal? Definitely going to check into it.
     
  5. pboy

    pboy Member

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    make mushroom broths to get copper, and if you didnt know 1oz dark chocolate has about 55% daily value copper! (one of the highest natural sources). I think you'll get enough on a typical peat diet for the most part. From what I understand about iron is that non supplemental iron is relatively well regulated by your body and you wont absorb more than you need unless you hyperdose which is really hard to do with food.
     
  6. narouz

    narouz Member

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    I've got sky-high ferritin,
    so I've been meaning to start regular blood donation for a while.
    I kinduv hate it, so I think I've been subconsciously procrastinating. :oops:
     
  7. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Need me to hold your hand, narouz? :rolling

    I for one thought we were getting plenty of copper on this diet. And IIRC Ray Peat said that the thyroid regulates copper.
     
  8. OP
    jyb

    jyb Member

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    Re copper: drinking water out of a copper cup seems easier than making mushroom borth ;)

    Re iron: RP recommends coffee and/or milk at the same time as iron rich foods, to reduce absorption. I think the body will always absorb some iron, even if it has stores, which is why caution is needed with iron rich food in the context of improving metabolism.
     
  9. OP
    jyb

    jyb Member

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    With lots of chocolate possibly. But commercial chocolate bars give me mild acne, even quality stuff like Green & Blacks (free of soy lecithin). I'm sure about it, I don't have acne otherwise on a Peat diet.
     
  10. pboy

    pboy Member

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    indeed...if only I had one. I eventually wanna get a copper pot but they're like 1-300 dollars!

    Sorry if this is a newbie question...but how does iron effect metabolism? Like...do you want as little as possible or is some necessary but just very little. I eat a lot of greens and total probably around 200% daily iron req each day, and about 100% copper or a little less. Could I stand to benefit from reducing iron intake? And how does iron effect metabolism...does it just bog your system down by becoming oxidized or is there some other mechanism?
     
  11. Asimov

    Asimov Member

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    Donating blood twice a year will do absolutely no damage to your veins. The venipuncture is usually healed within a few days. The reason junkies have problems collapsing veins is they're literally popping into the same veins multiple times a day.
     
  12. gretchen

    gretchen Member

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    That's a great suggestion, thanks.
     
  13. OP
    jyb

    jyb Member

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    Maybe a good reason to investigate the copper glass suggestion, should be much cheaper.

    Re iron: if not already I suggest you read RP's article on iron. And on vegetables too since you are eating greens ;)
    My vague understanding is that iron can oxidize and also displace the copper in the key respiratory enzymes.

    It also accumulates in the brain along with other heavy metals in Alzheimers. (So does copper though?)
     
  14. OP
    jyb

    jyb Member

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    I wanted to get an idea of how much copper you'd get from water left overnight in a copper glass.

    It seems like you get a 10-30mg copper from a liver meal.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312355/

    This means an overnight water in copper pot gets about 0.1 mg/L of copper. So, even drinking a litre of that water (excessive), one gets a negligible amount compared to liver (but apparently enough to kill bacteria in the water).


    Peat mentions getting copper from his copper cooking utensils. I'm guessing this means copper leaches more with heat and/or acidic food. Wikipedia seems to agree

    and even says it leaches toxic amounts. Would leaving an acidic beverage like coca-cola or coffee overnight in a copper glass give a reasonable amount (significant but not excessive)?
     
  15. OP
    jyb

    jyb Member

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1951709/

    has a few relevant experiments measuring copper in beverages left in copper tube. When pressure if applied, OJ gets < 10 ppm copper, a bit more for a carbonated cola drink (equiv to coca cola?).

    One might probably get less when leaving a cup sit in a room (no pressure).
     
  16. OP
    jyb

    jyb Member

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    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/67/5/1098S.short

    Mentions the story of people getting copper toxicity (symptoms were temporary digestion issues) after preparing a cocktail in a copper shaker.

    The acidic ingredients is what enhanced copper leaching, in this case whiskey and lemon juice (other ingredients, sugar, eggwhite, water). I'm guessing the lemon juice is what really matters (lowest pH).

    It seems like 10mg was enough to make them ill (the nurses on 5mg did not get ill). However, this is less than what you get in a liver meal, and from 2L of pipe water when water is acidic in some areas of the US.

    From this it seems like squeezing some lemon into a copper cup filled with water and left in the fridge for 2 hours might get a significant amount of copper.

    From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1951709/ a non-carbonated solution of pH range 3.50-3.66 seems to give a significant yet non-toxic amount.

    This should help the right dosage of lemon juice. It has pH of 2-3, so for a cup of water maybe a few drops of juice is enough.
     
  17. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Jyb I appreciate you pulling all this information together.

    Do you really think we need to go about getting more copper like this? I have not concentrated on this subject yet so I just do not know. Like I said above, I thought Peating would have enough.
     
  18. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Is there a certain amount of copper we are shooting for?

    And IIRC, I thought Ray Peat said the thyroid regulates copper. So definitely want to have good thyroid function too.
     
  19. OP
    jyb

    jyb Member

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    Well, the RDA for copper is 2mg. I don't know if its something we should be aiming for daily. I don't think I get the RDA as I don't eat loads of chocolate, at least the days I don't eat shellfish or liver. This seems like a simple alternative, simpler than cooking with an expensive copper pan.
     
  20. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    Ok, I guess I need to check into whether I am getting enough.

    So much to think about! :lol:
     
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