On Iron, Copper And Phlebotomy

[jyb]

Ok, I guess I need to check into whether I am getting enough.

So much to think about!

I honestly don't know if its important. I just read about it on this forum, and people eating enough chocolate to get enough of it, I also read Peat trying to get more copper with copper pans in one of his experiments. Since I don't eat chocolate, and meat/shellfish occasionally, this seems to apply.

 

[charlie]

No worries jyb. You just got me thinking that maybe I need to look into to because like you said Ray Peat even supplemented it at one time.

 

[narouz]

Lost track of this interesting thread (I always forget to click "Subscribe Topic"!)

It is important to be careful with the copper-thing, I think.
My iron--for whatever reason--is very high.
I finally started donating blood a few days ago.

But earlier last year my strategy was to get plenty of copper
in order to clear the iron.
So I was taking a combo supplement of 15mg zinc/2mg copper.
Obviously, from my lab tests, that strategy didn't work.
My ferritin, for one thing, was sky high.

I asked Cr. Peat about it,
and he said the ferritin lab might be skewwed
because zinc can also make one's ferritin lab go up
(he send me a study showing this--will post it over on the Peat Advice Repository soon).

Also, I was eating a lot of oysters to get the copper.
Peat reminded me that oysters also have a lot of iron.
He said I only needed to eat "some" every 2 weeks or so--
not every week
(I think I started stuffing them down because I had heard reports,
I think by Danny R., that Peat ate like a can of oysters per day--
so I figured: if Peat does it it must be good!)

So...I think it's good to be careful about zeroing in on one nutrient,
especially a potentially toxic mineral like copper,
and getting fixated on it as a potential answer to all of one's problems.
That approach can backfire and make things worse. :)

 

[narouz]

And since we're on the subject of Iron,
here is an interesting data point I don't really know quite what to make of.

I've been doing the straight T3 regime for a couple of weeks
under the hypothesis that I may have some form of thyroid resistance.

Well, when I donated blood about 5 days ago in the early afternoon,
for the rest of that day,
and the next day,
and then the first half of the third day after...
I hardly needed any thyroid supplement at all.
Indeed, I couldn't take it because it made me feel really hyper and I couldn't sleep.
I monitor my temps and pulses under this nascent T3 regime
to tell me when to increase my dosage.
I had been at around 45mcg T3.
After the blood donation
my temps and pulses were staying high--like 99+degrees and over 90bpm--
with almost no thyroid supplementation for those next 2 or 3 days.

On that third day afterwards
my temps and pulses showed me that I need thyroid supplementation.
So now it looks like I'm heading quickly back to my pre-donation daily dosage levels.

Like I say: don't know how to evaluate the phenomenon.
Did I lose enough of my heavy iron burden through one donation
to temporarily allow me to utilize the thyroid that was in/being made by my body?
Was it just a stress reaction to the donation?

I have found some scant mention about the web
that thyroid resistance can be caused by high iron.

 

[jyb]

Lost track of this interesting thread (I always forget to click "Subscribe Topic"!)

It is important to be careful with the copper-thing, I think.
My iron--for whatever reason--is very high.
I finally started donating blood a few days ago.

But earlier last year my strategy was to get plenty of copper
in order to clear the iron.
So I was taking a combo supplement of 15mg zinc/2mg copper.
Obviously, from my lab tests, that strategy didn't work.
My ferritin, for one thing, was sky high.

I don't think you can clear the iron contrary to zinc and copper? You'd need phlebotomy.

 

[narouz]

Lost track of this interesting thread (I always forget to click "Subscribe Topic"!)

It is important to be careful with the copper-thing, I think.
My iron--for whatever reason--is very high.
I finally started donating blood a few days ago.

But earlier last year my strategy was to get plenty of copper
in order to clear the iron.
So I was taking a combo supplement of 15mg zinc/2mg copper.
Obviously, from my lab tests, that strategy didn't work.
My ferritin, for one thing, was sky high.

I don't think you can clear the iron contrary to zinc and copper? You'd need phlebotomy.

I was operating under the idea that a copper deficiency could be a cause of iron accumulation,
because enough copper is necessary for the body to deal with iron appropriately
(like getting rid of excess).
But I've also read that too much iron can lead to a copper deficiency,
so...a Catch-22 situation (if true).

 

[supernature]

I've been doing the straight T3 regime for a couple of weeks
under the hypothesis that I may have some form of thyroid resistance.

Well, when I donated blood about 5 days ago in the early afternoon,
for the rest of that day,
and the next day,
and then the first half of the third day after...
I hardly needed any thyroid supplement at all.
Indeed, I couldn't take it because it made me feel really hyper and I couldn't sleep.

I was operating under the idea that a copper deficiency could be a cause of iron accumulation,
because enough copper is necessary for the body to deal with iron appropriately
(like getting rid of excess).
But I've also read that too much iron can lead to a copper deficiency,
so...a Catch-22 situation (if true)

It looks like both scenarios are possible as they antagonize each other.
Except the fact in possibility of genetic predispositions of both elements on a personal body level, it would be valuable for one to account which one is more harmful.
I guess the lower and upper values of each are indicative enough so one could be able to determine.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think that's the stress reaction from the needle and the blood volume.

 

[michael94]

Further, reduced Cu availability was suggestive of inducing increased iron stores via decreased ferroportin-1 expression and ceruloplasmin ferroxidase activity thus blocking liver iron export in Cu deficient adults [76].Thus, since the Cu-dependent ferroxidase ceruloplasmin facilitates the release of iron from hepatic cells [77], low concentrations may lead to iron retention and may thereby augment oxidative stress

The Potential Role of Iron and Copper in Pediatric Obesity and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease

Eat your 90% choc people

http://sci-hub.io/http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.clnu.2011.11.005


Edit: So coffee and chocolate seems like good therapy for iron excess in the liver and I suppose a bit of zinc of you're deficient in it ? The zinc seems to lower serum ferritin but I'm not sure about hepatic iron.

 

[supernature]

The psychological effect is a real thing, but one cant deny the feeling when you take out 200mg of pure Iron from the system in just one sitting and im pretty sure the lightness its not only from the difference of the lost volume, esp when there are strong indications of too much Iron circulating already.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Volume is restored in less than a week, which is similar in duration to these feelings... also donation makes us lose copper as well...

 

[supernature]

The Potential Role of Iron and Copper in Pediatric Obesity and Nonalcoholic Fatty Liver Disease

I assume thats how it all begins, NAFLD with no particular reason (too much of a bad food etc.), unless somebody is not aware already of some facts regarding potential imbalance of those two elements. I did have such condition few years ago, reverse it with better nutrition via food, however there wasnt too much difference in serum levels back then, except for little low Ceruloplasmin.

 

[supernature]

Volume is restored in less than a week, which is similar in duration to these feelings... also donation makes us lose copper as well...

The logic is saying that is possible to loose not only iron but copper as well, thats why is wise to cover nutrition well while on self-appointed blood drawing therapy, however there is some specificity.

"Serum ceruloplasmin and liver copper in HFE hemochromatosis.
The serum concentrations of ceruloplasmin are decreased in iron-loaded HFE hemochromatosis homozygotes, and return to normal values after iron depletion. Regardless, serum ceruloplasmin measurement is not a useful phenotypic test for the diagnostic evaluation of individuals who are suspected to have hemochromatosis, nor does it provide useful prognostic or management information. Early investigators reported that levels of copper are increased in some patients who die of hemochromatosis and iron overload. The pathogenesis of this phenomenon is incompletely understand.
Therapeutic phlebotomy is ineffective in removing copper. - J. Barton, C. Edwards"

 

[Such_Saturation]