Even Intermittent Fasting Reduces Insulin Sensitivity (in The Obese)

haidut

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The study was in diabetic patients (Type II) so probably does not apply to all healthy people. However, it is still pretty telling that skipping only breakfast has such a potent and long lasting (post- lunch and dinner) effect on insulin sensitivity.

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/conten ... 1.abstract

"...Skipping breakfast increases PPHG after lunch and dinner in association with lower iGLP-1 and impaired insulin response. This study shows a long-term influence of breakfast on glucose regulation that persists throughout the day. Breakfast consumption could be a successful strategy for reduction of PPHG in type 2 diabetes. "
 
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charlie

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Eat early and eat often. :P
 

Parsifal

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Why do some people have very good improvements to their health issues while fasting?
 

tara

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Parsifal said:
post 99198 Why do some people have very good improvements to their health issues while fasting?
Maybe:
- they got a break from a particular food that was aggravating them (might have been able to get this by just eliminating the offending food)
- they got a reduced endotoxin load in the short term
- they got increased stress hormones, which reduced inflammation somewhere that was bothering them
- they got increased stress hormones, which made them feel better
- they thought losing weight was a health improvement in itself
- they had unstable blood sugar management before, and when they stopped eating their system supplied stable blood sugars by way of chronically elevated (catabolic) cortisol
- they got some temporary relief of symptoms, but eventually they ran their metabolism down from insufficient nutrition, and then things got worse, but they didn't report back to the same blog/thread etc where they published their initial apparent improvements
- they really did benefit from fasting temporarily to give their system a break to recover from something specific
 
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Is it true that animals fast when sick? Or is this something we observed from pets who are just tired of eating crappy dog food?
 

haidut

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Hugh Johnson said:
post 99245 Are these women?

When I did intermittent fasting, I found that the research showed often opposite effects for males and females. This was with both mice and men.

No, they were a mix.
"...The study enrolled 26 individuals who habitually ate breakfast, with 22 participants completing. The period of recruitment and follow-up was between October 2012 and January 2014. After the first all-day meal test, four dropped out (1 of NoB and 3 of YesB) because of difficulties to arrive to the clinic. Twenty-two patients (12 men and 10 women) completed the study."
 
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haidut

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Parsifal said:
post 99624 Fructose doesn't need insulin to be metabolized right?

Nope, and also it gets used by ALL organs and not just liver like medical "gurus" claim. The liver just has the biggest use for it since it is the most effective replenisher of glycogen.
 
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narouz

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I've had occasion recently to experience the bad effects from fasting until later in the day.
I've been hellbent on consuming a LOT of caffeine here lately,
targeting the liver.
And if I wake up and have a couple cups of coffee,
and start doing stuff,
it is easy for me to forget to eat for a while.
(Coffee does seem to reduce appetite, it seems.)

So...I've forgotten on a couple of days in the last few weeks.
When that has happened,
I don't feel real good,
and it's hard to get my temps up where they should be.
I do much better when I go to work and my routine is to eat a pretty big protein meal first thing.
 

haidut

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narouz said:
post 99637 I've had occasion recently to experience the bad effects from fasting until later in the day.
I've been hellbent on consuming a LOT of caffeine here lately,
targeting the liver.
And if I wake up and have a couple cups of coffee,
and start doing stuff,
it is easy for me to forget to eat for a while.
(Coffee does seem to reduce appetite, it seems.)

So...I've forgotten on a couple of days in the last few weeks.
When that has happened,
I don't feel real good,
and it's hard to get my temps up where they should be.
I do much better when I go to work and my routine is to eat a pretty big protein meal first thing.

Caffeine does suppress appetite, and this is one of the reasons people lose weight even on lower doses of caffeine (~300mg daily), which is not thermogenic enough to explain the extra weight loss. The good news is that since caffeine makes your liver very capable of recovering glycogen stores when you refeed most of the carbs will go toward glycogen replacement and not fat storage.
 
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narouz

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haidut said:
Caffeine does suppress appetite, and this is one of the reasons people lose weight even on lower doses of caffeine (~300mg daily), which is not thermogenic enough to explain the extra weight loss. The good news is that since caffeine makes your liver very capable of recovering glycogen stores when you refeed most of the carbs will go toward glycogen replacement and not fat storage.

Caffeine:
Release the Kraken!
:D
 

Parsifal

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haidut said:
Caffeine does suppress appetite, and this is one of the reasons people lose weight even on lower doses of caffeine (~300mg daily), which is not thermogenic enough to explain the extra weight loss. The good news is that since caffeine makes your liver very capable of recovering glycogen stores when you refeed most of the carbs will go toward glycogen replacement and not fat storage.

That's cool and interesting! I definitely feel the positive effects of coffee since I've started taking it (I felt jittery before following instructions on the Functionalps website).

I also wondered what is the difference between glycogen and pyruvate (and maybe other metabolic molecules that I don't know)? There are some people that say that fructose if converted into pyruvate and MCT too, and it seems that Peatarians don't like Pyruvate because (if I remember well) it blocks respiration and put the metabolism in glycolisis mode?
 

haidut

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Parsifal said:
post 99644
haidut said:
Caffeine does suppress appetite, and this is one of the reasons people lose weight even on lower doses of caffeine (~300mg daily), which is not thermogenic enough to explain the extra weight loss. The good news is that since caffeine makes your liver very capable of recovering glycogen stores when you refeed most of the carbs will go toward glycogen replacement and not fat storage.

That's cool and interesting! I definitely feel the positive effects of coffee since I've started taking it (I felt jittery before following instructions on the Functionalps website).

I also wondered what is the difference between glycogen and pyruvate (and maybe other metabolic molecules that I don't know)? There are some people that say that fructose if converted into pyruvate and MCT too, and it seems that Peatarians don't like Pyruvate because (if I remember well) it blocks respiration and put the metabolism in glycolisis mode?

Glucose does have to go through pyruvate to get metabolized. I think all sugars do. Pyruvate is the first step in glucose metabolism. Pyruvate is fine as long as it gets properly oxidized and not converted into lactate due to excessive glycolysis. There are even studies with pyruvate for increasing athletic performance but it only works when combined with a strong stimulator of metabolism like thyroid.
 
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Parsifal

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haidut said:
Glucose does have to go through pyruvate to get metabolized. I think all sugars do. Pyruvate is the first step in glucose metabolism. Pyruvate is fine as long as it gets properly oxidized and not converted into lactate due to excessive glycolysis. There are even studies with pyruvate for increasing athletic performance but it only works when combined with a strong stimulator of metabolism like thyroid.

"However, glycolysis and the products of glycolysis, lactate and pyruvate, have been found to have a causal role in the suppression of respiration; it is both a cause and a consequence of the respiratory shutdown, though nitric oxide, calcium, and fatty acids are closely involved.”

“Glycolysis produces both pyruvate and lactate, and excessive pyruvate produces almost the same inhibitory effect as lactate; since the Crabtree effect involves nitric oxide and fatty acids as well as calcium, I think it is reasonable to look for the simplest sort of explanation, instead of trying to experimentally trace all the possible interactions of these substances; a simple physical competition between the products of glycolysis and carbon dioxide, for the binding sites, such as lysine, that would amount to a phase change in the mitochondrion. Glucose, and apparently glycolysis, are required for the production of nitric oxide, as for the accumulation of calcium, at least in some types of cell, and these coordinated changes, which lower energy production, could be produced by a reduction in carbon dioxide, in a physical change even more basic than the energy level represented by ATP The use of Krebs cycle substances in the synthesis of amino acids, and other products, would decrease the formation of CO2, creating a situation in which the system would have two possible states, one, the glycolytic stress state, and the other, the carbon dioxide producing energy-efficient state.”

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2014/0 ... ric-oxide/ :|

Could explain why I "feel" that I have more NO since starting high carb diet?
 

jyb

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haidut said:
Glucose does have to go through pyruvate to get metabolized. I think all sugars do. Pyruvate is the first step in glucose metabolism. Pyruvate is fine as long as it gets properly oxidized and not converted into lactate due to excessive glycolysis. There are even studies with pyruvate for increasing athletic performance but it only works when combined with a strong stimulator of metabolism like thyroid.

How do you explain this account Brooks on lactate? He says you get bad performance when lactate builds up in excess, but good performer both produce and use it more (without build up). For sure Brooks and other recent findings on lactate are not very Peat compatible in the sense that they say that lactate has its use and is not all about acidosis and excess build up. He makes a distinction between different lactate metabolisms, only one of which is when tissues are oxygen deprived. That's for athletic performance, but it complements well Peter from Hyperlipid on his article on neuron fuel with balanced glucose+lactate when astrocytes are healthy. Perhaps we should note here that Peat is often referring to D-Lactic acid from gut bacteria, which is not relevant to this discussion.
 

haidut

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jyb said:
post 99665
haidut said:
Glucose does have to go through pyruvate to get metabolized. I think all sugars do. Pyruvate is the first step in glucose metabolism. Pyruvate is fine as long as it gets properly oxidized and not converted into lactate due to excessive glycolysis. There are even studies with pyruvate for increasing athletic performance but it only works when combined with a strong stimulator of metabolism like thyroid.

How do you explain this account Brooks on lactate? He says you get bad performance when lactate builds up in excess, but good performer both produce and use it more (without build up). For sure Brooks and other recent findings on lactate are not very Peat compatible in the sense that they say that lactate has its use and is not all about acidosis and excess build up. He makes a distinction between different lactate metabolisms, only one of which is when tissues are oxygen deprived. That's for athletic performance, but it complements well Peter from Hyperlipid on his article on neuron fuel with balanced glucose+lactate when astrocytes are healthy. Perhaps we should note here that Peat is often referring to D-Lactic acid from gut bacteria, which is not relevant to this discussion.

I think people who handle lactate well are the ones that metabolize enough glucose into CO2 and that allows them to re-metabolize lactate or at least prevent it from suffocating the cells.
 
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haidut

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Parsifal said:
post 99664
haidut said:
Glucose does have to go through pyruvate to get metabolized. I think all sugars do. Pyruvate is the first step in glucose metabolism. Pyruvate is fine as long as it gets properly oxidized and not converted into lactate due to excessive glycolysis. There are even studies with pyruvate for increasing athletic performance but it only works when combined with a strong stimulator of metabolism like thyroid.

"However, glycolysis and the products of glycolysis, lactate and pyruvate, have been found to have a causal role in the suppression of respiration; it is both a cause and a consequence of the respiratory shutdown, though nitric oxide, calcium, and fatty acids are closely involved.”

“Glycolysis produces both pyruvate and lactate, and excessive pyruvate produces almost the same inhibitory effect as lactate; since the Crabtree effect involves nitric oxide and fatty acids as well as calcium, I think it is reasonable to look for the simplest sort of explanation, instead of trying to experimentally trace all the possible interactions of these substances; a simple physical competition between the products of glycolysis and carbon dioxide, for the binding sites, such as lysine, that would amount to a phase change in the mitochondrion. Glucose, and apparently glycolysis, are required for the production of nitric oxide, as for the accumulation of calcium, at least in some types of cell, and these coordinated changes, which lower energy production, could be produced by a reduction in carbon dioxide, in a physical change even more basic than the energy level represented by ATP The use of Krebs cycle substances in the synthesis of amino acids, and other products, would decrease the formation of CO2, creating a situation in which the system would have two possible states, one, the glycolytic stress state, and the other, the carbon dioxide producing energy-efficient state.”

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2014/0 ... ric-oxide/ :|

Could explain why I "feel" that I have more NO since starting high carb diet?

Unless there is new biochemistry that I don't know about, glycolysis is unavoidable as it is the first step in oxidation of glucose.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK21624/
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-glucose-oxidation.htm
The issue is excessive glycolysis - i.e. oxidation of glucose to pyruvate, which then does NOT progress through the Krebs cycle, which metabolizes pyruvate into water and CO2. So, it is the buildup of pyruvate (excessive glycolysis) that is problematic since it indicates that the Krebs cycle is not working, not pyruvate itself. If glycolysis is shut down completely the organism can die. This is why drugs like DCA are toxic since they can inhibit glycolysis too much. What is needed is an agent that metabolizes pyruvate. Thiamine is one such agent since it stimulates pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH) and consumes the pyruvate produced by glycolysis.
 
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Kasper

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I know people who do very bad when fasting.
My mother and my older brother for example.

But ... some people do really well when fasting.
Me, for example, my father as well.

So I have a bit mixed feelings about this ...

I am now doing for 2 and a half week, every day, no eating (no colories) until 3 o'clock. Sometimes even until 5 o'clock or 6 o'clock.
I do drink coffee (5 cups or something). I drink some fresh mint tea. I put estroban/stressnon on my skin. I take energin with some water.

When I come home from study I make a very big meal.
2kg potatoes, much fruit, goat milk, vegetables (onions/squashes/ginger/turmeric)/ meat/eggs gelatin/bcca etc.
I eat this meal during the rest of the evening.

I do feel very good with this (better then when I eat all day). I don't know. I feel very concentrated during study in this way. I don't feel stressed in any way. At university I do from 11-1pm o clock, 2 hours of yoga/meditating/sauna(infrared)/also cold showers. That is probably contributing in the fact I feel so free of stress. I do this also every day for the last 2 and a half week.

Intuitively, I think fasting is very good for me. That is just the signal my body is giving me. I think it has to do with serotonin being low when not eating. And probably my body has just very healthy glycogen stores, as I don't feel like having low sugar.

About this study, caffeine and fasting work in similar ways as it comes to autophagy: http://www.anti-agingfirewalls.com/2013 ... s-aging-2/

Basicly, how I understand it autophagy makes you mitochondria more efficient. Interestingly, caffeine has also been shown to make people insulin insensitive in the short term, but long term that is not the case, maybe that is the same for fasting @haidut ?

One thing that I want to stress, I don't say we should all fast, I only want to say that fasting feels very beneficial to my body, but maybe that is very specific to my body.
 

jyb

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Kasper said:
post 99756 I know people who do very bad when fasting.
My mother and my older brother for example.

But ... some people do really well when fasting.
Me, for example, my father as well.

So I have a bit mixed feelings about this ...

I am now doing for 2 and a half week, every day, no eating (no colories) until 3 o'clock. Sometimes even until 5 o'clock or 6 o'clock.
I do drink coffee (5 cups or something). I drink some fresh mint tea. I put estroban/stressnon on my skin. I take energin with some water.

I would say that the ability to fast without stress depends more on your diet and habits rather than the person. This is what I conclude from my own experience but also conceptually it makes sense. For example if you get your energy from constant sugar feeding, you are more sensitive to insulin and may get into stress or hypoglycaemia faster when not getting your next meal. When you have more balanced towards saturated fatty acids as energy, the insulin sensitivity is decreased and the body is used to keeping blood sugar stable by distributing glucose to organs who prefer it only and fatty acids to the rest. Ultimately you don't react well if you suddenly change your energy supply, and that seems more likely to happen when you're on frequent carb meals because less is stored, or when you're deficient in calories (whether fats or glucose). It is interesting to notice that we fast every day when we go to bed. If we wake up stressed with an urge to go to kitchen, that looks like severe energy deficiency and inability to do fasting without damage. That used to happen to me but it is completely avoidable. The same can be same about physical exercise, probably.
 
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