Even Intermittent Fasting Reduces Insulin Sensitivity (in The Obese)

chispas

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Have a look at these videos for an example of what I mean:

240kg deadlift (slow):

240kg clean and jerk (fast):

Unfortunately, you can't get good at the latter by training the former. It also works the other way, with jerk weight increasing while strict press weight decreases. It's documented in Russian literature. I can post some if anyone's interested.
 
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It's good because muscle contraction will be fast. Hence faster velocity, and greater force production. Maybe even better balance.

But you will be making less CO2, more lactic acid, and have less total mitochondria.
 

sladerunner69

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Maybe:
- they got a break from a particular food that was aggravating them (might have been able to get this by just eliminating the offending food)
- they got a reduced endotoxin load in the short term
- they got increased stress hormones, which reduced inflammation somewhere that was bothering them
- they got increased stress hormones, which made them feel better
- they thought losing weight was a health improvement in itself
- they had unstable blood sugar management before, and when they stopped eating their system supplied stable blood sugars by way of chronically elevated (catabolic) cortisol
- they got some temporary relief of symptoms, but eventually they ran their metabolism down from insufficient nutrition, and then things got worse, but they didn't report back to the same blog/thread etc where they published their initial apparent improvements
- they really did benefit from fasting temporarily to give their system a break to recover from something specific

So you asser that stress hormones can make you feel better? Do you believe there is a balance between low and high stress hormones that is ideal for mood? Or do you thinkt hat stresshormones wor momentarily but not for long?

I think fasting does have some beneficial effects but maintaining a strong metabolism is not one of them.
 

chispas

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But you will be making less CO2, more lactic acid, and have less total mitochondria.

Only temporarily, during the training phase. Post training, I'm hypothesizing I could use aspirin or glycine or some other suitable substance to recover appropriately.
 
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Only temporarily, during the training phase. Post training, I'm hypothesizing I could use aspirin or glycine or some other suitable substance to recover appropriately.

But you are training that kind of fiber which is poor in mithochondria... so you will end up with less and less of the other fibers.
 

kayumochi

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The study was in diabetic patients (Type II) so probably does not apply to all healthy people. However, it is still pretty telling that skipping only breakfast has such a potent and long lasting (post- lunch and dinner) effect on insulin sensitivity.

http://care.diabetesjournals.org/conten ... 1.abstract

"...Skipping breakfast increases PPHG after lunch and dinner in association with lower iGLP-1 and impaired insulin response. This study shows a long-term influence of breakfast on glucose regulation that persists throughout the day. Breakfast consumption could be a successful strategy for reduction of PPHG in type 2 diabetes. "

It's an acute response that ends with refeeding. How it should be done, rather than via chronic VLC or Keto.
 
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It's an acute response that ends with refeeding. How it should be done, rather than via chronic VLC or Keto.

Yes, but what is the point of doing this to start with? Even intermittent fasting lowers thyroid levels.
 
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You must be aware of the many benefits of IF that are touted so loudly these days ...

I am, but these benefits usually have to do with losing weight. I have not seen any long term studies with IF and things like all-cause mortality, CVD, cancer, etc. Just because something made these people lose some weight does not mean it is automatically good for them. As I posted in another study, it is RMR that is most strongly correlated with health, not BMI or even blood glucose levels. Recent studied found that lowering HbA1c found higher mortality. As usual, the biomarker that the med industry is after is just a symptoms, not something that is beneficial when manipulated.
Glycated hemoglobin - Wikipedia
"...In diabetes mellitus, higher amounts of glycated hemoglobin, indicating poorer control of blood glucose levels, have been associated with cardiovascular disease, nephropathy, neuropathy, and retinopathy. A trial on a group of patients with Type 1 diabetes found that monitoring by caregivers of HbA1c led to changes in diabetes treatment and improvement of metabolic control compared to monitoring only of blood or urine glucose.[3] However, a trial designed specifically to determine whether reducing HbA1c below the normal 6% would reduce the rate of cardiovascular events in Type 2 Diabetes found higher mortality—the trial was terminated early.[4]"
 

tara

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So you asser that stress hormones can make you feel better?
This is how it seems to me.

Yes, at least for a while. They serve to maintain or raise energy supply when it is needed. If energy is not being well supplied by thyroid metabolism, then stress hormones can provide a lift.

[Edit to add:] Also, I think cortisol has some anti-inflammatory effects. So if one is suffering from inflammation, raising cortisol may make one feel better in the short term?

Do you believe there is a balance between low and high stress hormones that is ideal for mood?
Maybe, or maybe it is about them coming up briefly to handle acute stresses and then quickly subsiding again. I don't think I know the details of what would be ideal.
Some level of cortisol, adrenaline, serotonin, etc is probably necessary to keep functioning well. I don't know what those levels would be. How much of these one would need to feel good would presumably depend on how well energy is being supplied by thyroid metabolism etc.

Or do you thinkt hat stresshormones wor momentarily but not for long?
Chronically elevated stress hormones would tend to have catabolic effects on organs, and are not great for getting good restorative rest and recovery etc, so they have their limitations.

I think fasting does have some beneficial effects but maintaining a strong metabolism is not one of them.
Seems likely to me too that fasting can sometimes have it's uses, but not generally great for raising or maintaining strong metabolism.
 
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sladerunner69

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This is how it seems to me.

Yes, at least for a while. They serve to maintain or raise energy supply when it is needed. If energy is not being well supplied by thyroid metabolism, then stress hormones can provide a lift.

[Edit to add:] Also, I think cortisol has some anti-inflammatory effects. So if one is suffering from inflammation, raising cortisol may make one feel better in the short term?


Maybe, or maybe it is about them coming up briefly to handle acute stresses and then quickly subsiding again. I don't think I know the details of what would be ideal.
Some level of cortisol, adrenaline, serotonin, etc is probably necessary to keep functioning well. I don't know what those levels would be. How much of these one would need to feel good would presumably depend on how well energy is being supplied by thyroid metabolism etc.


Chronically elevated stress hormones would tend to have catabolic effects on organs, and are not great for getting good restorative rest and recovery etc, so they have their limitations.


Seems likely to me too that fasting can sometimes have it's uses, but not generally great for raising or maintaining strong metabolism.

solid/interesting answers, thanks!
 

tara

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solid/interesting answers, thanks!
Just remembering also that there are natural cyclical fluctuations in cortisol levels, associated with circadian rhythm, but I think maybe also on shorter cycles too?
 

sladerunner69

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Have a look at these videos for an example of what I mean:

240kg deadlift (slow):

240kg clean and jerk (fast):

Unfortunately, you can't get good at the latter by training the former. It also works the other way, with jerk weight increasing while strict press weight decreases. It's documented in Russian literature. I can post some if anyone's interested.



HOLY TOLITO that is an icnredible amount of weight, especially for a guy who doesnt look heavier then 200lbs! I've literally never seen anything like that, not even in the olympics. All the guys doing around that kind of weight are usually shaped like bowling balls and have very large bellies. A lot his power is in his technique too, he dips down under the bar EXTREMELY fast, in fact he is hardly pulling the bar up at all, instead he is dropping tog et under it and then doing a front squat and a jerk (jerking this wieght is also extremely impressive)

The russian guy blows the bodybuilder's lift out fo the water, 530 lbs is nto even very much to deadlift. I can do 405 6 times and Im barely even dedicated to my lifting.
 

chispas

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But you are training that kind of fiber which is poor in mithochondria... so you will end up with less and less of the other fibers.

Yep. And this "having less" of slow twitch fibre is good, because it enables faster muscle contraction.

Personally, I'm not convinced anything truly lessens, but just that type 1 muscles acquire type 2 elements over time.

You can't seriously argue that greater muscle capacity and speed is somehow inferior.
 
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Yep. And this "having less" of slow twitch fibre is good, because it enables faster muscle contraction.

Personally, I'm not convinced anything truly lessens, but just that type 1 muscles acquire type 2 elements over time.

You can't seriously argue that greater muscle capacity and speed is somehow inferior.

Well I can, on this forum... we want exactly to maximize the production of carbon dioxide, and minimize the primitive use of glucose.
 

chispas

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Well I can, on this forum... we want exactly to maximize the production of carbon dioxide, and minimize the primitive use of glucose.

So many imperatives, and yet little appreciable muscular benefit.

You're falling into the logical trap of defending abstract concepts in light of demonstrable empirical advantages.

It would be prudent to reevaluate the system of understanding that provides you with certainty in light of the reproducible, experiental observations.

Also, I big assumption Ray Peat and others are making, is that all human health markers are in alignment. As if, as you say, high CO2 and ideal mitochrondrial function will flow on to cause a range of holistic benefits for the larger organism. You can trace the spirit of this concept to the Christian notion of "wholeness" that postmodernism takes severe issue with. It's not actually new or novel.

It's about as simple as thinking that because the sun is shining, all the plants in my garden are doing well.
 
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So many imperatives, and yet little appreciable muscular benefit.

You're falling into the logical trap of defending abstract concepts in light of demonstrable empirical advantages.

It would be prudent to reevaluate the system of understanding that provides you with certainty in light of the reproducible, experiental observations.

Also, I big assumption Ray Peat and others are making, is that all human health markers are in alignment. As if, as you say, high CO2 and ideal mitochrondrial function will flow on to cause a range of holistic benefits for the larger organism. You can trace the spirit of this concept to the Christian notion of "wholeness" that postmodernism takes severe issue with. It's not actually new or novel.

It's about as simple as thinking that because the sun is shining, all the plants in my garden are doing well.

You started with the can'ts, I just followed up with the cans. I am glad you have found a school of philosophy that works for you and that has a name. Have you tried super slow weight lifting? It feels really great.
 

chispas

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You started with the can'ts, I just followed up with the cans. I am glad you have found a school of philosophy that works for you and that has a name. Have you tried super slow weight lifting? It feels really great.

I don't subscribe to any school of philosophy. I am just doubtful.

Slow exercise produces slow performance. That is not my goal.
 
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The title of this thread is misleading because the patients were obese. That should be in the title:

"These patients were 56.9 6 1.0 years old and had controlled type 2 diabetes for 8.4 6 0.7 years, 7.7 6 0.1% (61 6 0.8 mmol/mol) HbA1c, and were overweight or obese, with an average BMI of 28.2 6 0.6 kg/m2."

The diet was 20% fat and 7% fiber, I wouldn't expect to get good results with that either, and it doesn't even say exactly what they ate:

"The energy and content of all test meals had the same macronutrient content and compo- sition (701 6 8 kcal; 20% fat, 54% carbo- hydrates, 26% protein, 7% fiber)."

And because it misuses the word "fasting." Intermittent "fasting" is not really fasting. It's a reduced calorie diet/feeding "window."

Ketogenic diets, intermittent "fasting" and medically supervised water only fasting in appropriately selected individuals are not all the same thing. They are all completely different and should not be lumped together. That's unscientific.

Only "dry" fasting and water-only fasting are true fasts but dry fasting is only done by weird hippies who lie about what they are really doing because it's impossible to do a dry fast for more than a few days. Water is needed for hydration and elimination of metabolic waste products through the kidneys. Intermittent "fasting" won't do anything for insulin resistance if one continues to eat high fat.

Energy usage of the body comes in 5 stages:
  1. Directly from the food in your stomach/GI.
  2. Glycogen from your liver.
  3. Glycogen from your muscles.
  4. Ketosis: from your adipose tissues (fat deposits).
  5. Starvation: from your vital organs and tissues.
We take 2-3 days to reach stage 4 and that’s when actual fasting begins. To reach stage 5, it takes the typical person 40 days, depending on body reserves, and we would look anorexic from having lost most of our fat. There is a temporary loss of some protein before stage 4 begins. Water only fasting at stage 4 is a powerful way to restore insulin sensitivity but it most likely needs a few more days, about 10, which is really about 7 days from when stage 4 began.

Fasting is not "starving." Starvation only begins once labile fat reserves are depleted and muscle and organ tissue is then catabolized for sugar (glucose).

"Fasting is a scientific method of ridding the system of diseased tissue, and morbid matter, and is invariably accompanied by beneficial results. Starving is the deprivation of the tissues from nutriment which they require, and is invariably accompanied by disastrous consequences. The whole secret is this: fasting commences with the omission of the first meal and ends with the return of natural hunger, while starvation only begins with the return of natural hunger and terminates in death. Where the one ends the other begins. Whereas the latter process wastes the healthy tissues, emaciates the body, and depletes the vitality; the former process merely expels corrupt matter and useless fatty tissue, thereby elevating the energy, and eventually restoring the organism that just balance we term health."-Hereward Carrington

Medically Supervised Water-only Fasting In The Treatment Of Hypertension

Low Fat Diet/fasting Reverses 42 Yr Old Woman's Cancer, Published In British Medical
Jounral


Man Lives Off His Fat Stores For 382 Days

.
 
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I don't subscribe to any school of philosophy. I am just doubtful.

Slow exercise produces slow performance. That is not my goal.

By adjusting the load you can reach failure just as in any other weight lifting. But you can do it more accurately and go less into the overtraining zone. The slow speed gives you control.
 

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