DHT Causes Hair Loss, You Sure About That?

[JKX]

you got a better solution Einstein ?

My you come across as a nice fellow. Although not entirely surprising. Its an attitude that appears common in those unfortunate enough to be experiencing hair loss. I doubt that is coincidence.

Do you believe those suffering hairloss are suffering from a finasteride deficiency? Im not aware of its requirement for hair growth in say children or teenagers or other youthful individuals.

This whole forum is based around the metabolic theory of health and for the moment it's the most convincing set of ideas I personally have come across. The fact that seems to grate with you so much is just a reflection of your own personal bias. Surely you recognise that? And the fact it is a reflection of your clinical training? Thats fine, we all preconceptions. Im bias towards thyroid, pregnonolone and progesterone in the same way. Personally the one drug cure for each disease idea is gettting a little old dont you think?

Wouldnt you rather live in a world where medicine evolved in to something which at least attempts to restore optimal health rather than pushing a system which traps the vulnerable into a lifetime of drug use, treatments and surgery often just kicking the can down the road. Why not attempt to be part of something world changing? Doesnt that sound infinately more hopeful than the alternative?

If you truly wish to understand hairloss I'd suggest starting with your gut. Increased endotoxin drives a multitude of diseases and is a foundation player in hairloss. For example, there's a study using rats which were given antibiotics. They developed an increased amount of streptavidin producing bacteria post treatment. Streptavidin binds to biotin to prevent host use. The native bacteria are actively slowing the rats metabolism for their own gain. The rats lost their fur. Fur growth was restored using biotin injections. Just one example of many. And there are many...

Ray has repeatedly stated that good thyroid and its downstream products protect against the effects of a disordered gut. Its no coincidence that pregnenolone and progesterone are both TLR4 antagonists and are directly capable of binding to endotoxin, rendering it harmless (several studies on the forum and elsewhere if you care to search).

The gut truly is the cause of all disease IMO. Hippocrates was way ahead of his time. I'd suggest focusing your efforts there, rather than choosing to chemically castrate oneself for the sake of fur maintenance. But, each to their own of course.

 

[mrchibbs]

We cant consider women to have the same underlying cause for mpb. In cushings for example women are more often likely to bald but men with cushings tend to have juvenile hairlines

I don't see why not to be honest. The women of reproductive age experiencing temporal recession/vertex thinning in MPB fashion have the same hormonal profile (PCOS) as do men with "AGA", this was shown by Sanke et al. in 2016. Elevated prolactin, cortisol, aldosterone and DHEA. If that's not a sign of the same underlying cause I don't know what is. I suspect these women would also test for ''elevated DHT" in the scalp simply as a consequence of the circulating DHEA.

We don't have much good research comparing both sexes and testing tissue levels etc., I have so many ideas for interesting things to dig into. but I think it's pretty clear the same thing is happening, at least to me.

In both sexes the key characteristic is the hypothyroid state driving hypogonadism (testicles in men, ovaries in women). By virtue of their menstrual cycle, unless the PCOS is extremely severe, women have the benefit of breaking cycles of stress and degeneration every month, with the sweeping increases in E2 and P4. And still, the menstrual problems and missed cycles which are extremely common in today's generation means many young women have wispy thin hair and need hair extensions at an early age.

To @schultz point, women, especially if they have had healthy pregnancies, will keep on producing a little progesterone in their ovaries even decades past menopause. If the ovarian failure is relatively complete, however, you'll see exactly the same type of rapid onset balding you see in men. Many post-menopausal women wear wigs. Regarding estrogen, old men can have higher estrogen than women, and often will be producing more estrogen than ever before in their lives by virtue of the loss of muscle mass and near-absence of DHT and other hormones to oppose it.

 

[mrchibbs]

My you come across as a nice fellow. Although not entirely surprising. Its an attitude that appears common in those unfortunate enough to be experiencing hair loss. I doubt that is coincidence.

Do you believe those suffering hairloss are suffering from a finasteride deficiency? Im not aware of its requirement for hair growth in say children or teenagers or other youthful individuals.

This whole forum is based around the metabolic theory of health and for the moment it's the most convincing set of ideas I personally have come across. The fact that seems to grate with you so much is just a reflection of your own personal bias. Surely you recognise that? And the fact it is a reflection of your clinical training? Thats fine, we all preconceptions. Im bias towards thyroid, pregnonolone and progesterone in the same way. Personally the one drug cure for each disease idea is gettting a little old dont you think?

Wouldnt you rather live in a world where medicine evolved in to something which at least attempts to restore optimal health rather than pushing a system which traps the vulnerable into a lifetime of drug use, treatments and surgery often just kicking the can down the road. Why not attempt to be part of something world changing? Doesnt that sound infinately more hopeful than the alternative?

If you truly wish to understand hairloss I'd suggest starting with your gut. Increased endotoxin drives a multitude of diseases and is a foundation player in hairloss. For example, there's a study using rats which were given antibiotics. They developed an increased amount of streptavidin producing bacteria post treatment. Streptavidin binds to biotin to prevent host use. The native bacteria are actively slowing the rats metabolism for their own gain. The rats lost their fur. Fur growth was restored using biotin injections. Just one example of many. And there are many...

Ray has repeatedly stated that good thyroid and its downstream products protect against the effects of a disordered gut. Its no coincidence that pregnenolone and progesterone are both TLR4 antagonists and are directly capable of binding to endotoxin, rendering it harmless (several studies on the forum and elsewhere if you care to search).

The gut truly is the cause of all disease IMO. Hippocrates was way ahead of his time. I'd suggest focusing your efforts there, rather than choosing to chemically castrate oneself for the sake of fur maintenance. But, each to their own of course.

Great post.

In the end, everyone is free to choose to use any drug they want, but considering the epidemic of early-onset alopecia, even in teenagers these days, I find it much more interesting and worthwhile to explore the real causes of what is happening. If hair loss was totally uncorrelated with other pathologies, and happened totally randomly or due to "genetics", I could see wanting to use some medication, but I think it's pretty clear that's not the case.

Your point about gut health is very apt. Danny said recently that every guy he's consulted with about hair loss was dealing with gut problems, vitamin D deficiency, and hypothyroidism. Of course all three are interrelated to some extent, but you're right, it definitely is a better area of focus. For instance, finasteride, possibly because of its synthesis from progesterone, has very interesting, and rarely explored properties:

Finasteride Activity Against Candida Albicans

 

[tallglass13]

On the YouTube interview with Ray Peat and strong.sisters, @ 1:06, Ray describes that in PCOS, the adrenals don't turn cholesterol into progesterone, and turn more into the androgens that caused the problems in PCOS. I found that interesting because he has said that before in another interview about estrogen stimulating the adrenals to produce excess of the androgens. I tried to copy and paste the interview but I couldn't from my phone.
I find that quite interesting because that would mean that the androgens are linked to the PCOS problems, they may not be the cause, however they are linked because they are elevated. I think this is one of Ray's roundabout ways of explaining things without saying specifically.
The metabolic theory I'm sure has lots of validity, as Ray is a genius. However let's take a look at someone with a noted very high metabolic rate, TCA 300, even he has had trouble thickening his hair, and has resorted to trying to kill poofa or mites on his scalp. I really think that we need to take an unbiased look at this, and no offense to anyone here.
Trying to grow hair seems to be the hardest thing in the world, we can fake putting a man on the moon, we build cars and planes, but we can't grow hair on a head without using toxic drugs or surgery. Hair growth is the biggest topic on this forum even above vitamin A toxicity, as some are trying vitamin A elimination to see if their hair grows. I appreciate all of you smart individuals trying to crack this code, that includes Danny and Georgie of course.

 

[Kenny]

For the record, topical glutathione completely stops my hair loss and induces modest regrowth. Only problem is, it gives me pain in the groin area just like most antioxidants (NAC, astaxanthin, topical zinc, even oral Vitamin C in high dose).

If I could somehow get around that, I'd be golden. But antioxidants in general seem really helpful against AGA, especially applied topically right to the hair follicle. It's probably the most bang-for-the-buck thing I've used that isn't an anti-androgen. I'm surprised the hair loss community didn't pick up on it.

wait topical zinc and vitamin C caused you groin pain?

and you said topical gluthione induced regrowth? Would you be willing to share pictures? I would love to learn more about that substance

 

[mrchibbs]

@tallglass13

Well it is hard because of the pathological changes that have taken place in the scalp after several years of the process of accelerated balding (microvascular deficiency, fibrosis, calcification). You don't reverse these changes simply by bringing back metabolism to "normal", much like a fibrotic ankle won't revert back to 100% just by sitting on the couch with a high metabolism. You need to actively stimulate and work with the tissues. But first you have to completely deal with the situation which has caused this degeneration in the first place and 99% of guys don't do that, they just try to massage or dermaroll the heck out of their scalp, while the process is still happening. This just creates more inflammation and makes things worse. Maybe if we could get back to the metabolism of a 10 year old, the scalp would rejuvenate itself like the regrown finger tips, but let's be honest, our environments are too bad, it's not possible to get back to that level of metabolic intensity. So we need a bit of an extra stimuli.

The vertex of the scalp is already vulnerable because it doesn't have major artery blood support (as opposed to the sides and back). This is even evident in many women, their hair is much thinner on top. If you get into a degenerative state, and that goes on for years, there is chronic tension of the occipito-frontalis muscles, leaving the entire galea (top of the head) rock solid, and the hypoxia from decreased blood flow and hypothyroidism creates an inflammatory reaction to try to restore function, and Danny goes into depth in his past youtube videos, but then basically you get the mast cells generating inflammatory prostaglandins D2 (intensity defined by the presence of the PUFAs) in the tissues. This creates a constant degenerative, inflammatory state and is compounded by things like vitamin D deficiency which spikes hair cortisol, and progesterone deficiency, which allows aldosterone to rise, or calcium deficiency, leading to elevated prolactin. It's pure madness to try to identify a single causal agent in baldness. Progesterone does much to quiet these processes and healthy women have a consistent source of progesterone throughout their lives.

But a little exogenous progesterone is not enough to counteract these changes. Sometimes, it's successful in transgender stories but typically these people take 300mg daily + a progestin like cyproterone acetate or spironolactone, so it's a massive progestogenic effect.

I don't get what you mean by taking an unbiased look at this. This is the full picture of hair loss, not "DHT" and finasteride. Elevated DHEA (and then tissue DHT) is just a feature of stress. Our adrenals can't produce progesterone, so they produce DHEA to compensate for the chronic catabolic effects of cortisol. If we didn't have that extra DHEA, we would die of tissue wasting very quickly. Yes DHT is elevated in balding scalps, but so is cortisol, prostaglandins, mast cells, prolactin, aldosterone etc. It makes no sense to say, yep, DHT is the reason hair stops growing, and not, oh I don't know, a clear pattern of energy failure which creates a terrible condition for the hair follicles. Never has DHT or testosterone been applied to scalps and led to hair loss. Quite the contrary. Georgi knows of several people who've applied androgens with either some regrowth or no effect, but certainly not hair loss.

Regrowing hair is indeed a tall order for most men, especially when it's been many years in the making. You have to undo many layers of degeneration. But it starts with the basics: high temperature, sun exposure, optimal vitamin D levels, good digestion, good spirits. Then you can add aspirin and loads of vitamin K to try to increase circulation and reduce calcification, use red light to activate ATP and restorative processes in the scalp, use careful massages to stimulate and relax the scalp muscles and the galea, apply progesterone/steroids/T3 to the scalp etc.

It's a huge mess, and there is no clear "protocol", and while it gets incredibly complicated when you dig into it, the solution is rather straightforward. It just takes some serious willingness, good judgment and commitment.

 

[tallglass13]

@mrchibbs great post. Put a lot of things in perspective
I only wanted to share that Ray mentioned that androgens were up in PCOS, and that the adrenals are pushed and make extra androgens.
I fully agree with your post it makes the most sense in a bioenergetic point of view. Being that I fully agree and understand what Danny, you and Georgie are saying, I still have a question on how something like RU4881, which is an androgen receptor blocker, working to grow hair. The more plates more dates dude had a video just a couple of days ago on someone growing hair using that alone. Also to note, is that the progesterone does all sorts of great things, but one of them is to counter testosterone and the androgens. Ray talked about that with Patrick timpone on the YouTube video "Progesterone and Strokes" @23:25

 

[DhtAssassin]

......... and the shilling continues.

Keep understating the risks for the purposes of SHORT-TERM hair loss cessation bud.

So what else do you recommend? I haven't seen anyone in this forum who managed to get any hair growth without using normal, proven stuff.

 

[JKX]

@mrchibbs great post. Put a lot of things in perspective
I only wanted to share that Ray mentioned that androgens were up in PCOS, and that the adrenals are pushed and make extra androgens.
I fully agree with your post it makes the most sense in a bioenergetic point of view. Being that I fully agree and understand what Danny, you and Georgie are saying, I still have a question on how something like RU4881, which is an androgen receptor blocker, working to grow hair. The more plates more dates dude had a video just a couple of days ago on someone growing hair using that alone. Also to note, is that the progesterone does all sorts of great things, but one of them is to counter testosterone and the androgens. Ray talked about that with Patrick timpone on the YouTube video "Progesterone and Strokes" @23:25

Progesterone Is Androgenic

I think that's dose dependant. The male testes produce around 2-3mg per day in a healthy individual.

The first time I tried it the hair on the last 2 inches of my legs regrew which would suggest an increase in androgens. Muscle mass also increased with no change to my twice weekly 30-40min workouts.

I believe progesterone improves the body's ability to lower or raise androgens as necessary and in response to environmental factors. Im sure Haidut has covered this in a post or during one of the chats with Danny. It should probably be viewed as the primary hormone of systemic health first and foremost.

 

[JKX]

Great post.

In the end, everyone is free to choose to use any drug they want, but considering the epidemic of early-onset alopecia, even in teenagers these days, I find it much more interesting and worthwhile to explore the real causes of what is happening. If hair loss was totally uncorrelated with other pathologies, and happened totally randomly or due to "genetics", I could see wanting to use some medication, but I think it's pretty clear that's not the case.

Your point about gut health is very apt. Danny said recently that every guy he's consulted with about hair loss was dealing with gut problems, vitamin D deficiency, and hypothyroidism. Of course all three are interrelated to some extent, but you're right, it definitely is a better area of focus. For instance, finasteride, possibly because of its synthesis from progesterone, has very interesting, and rarely explored properties:

Finasteride Activity Against Candida Albicans

Thats interesting and not something I was aware of. Candida activity tends to increase during winter months. Reduced sunlight exposure is a big factor but it all fits in nicely with metabolism.

Increased pathogenic bacteria and fungus activity, increased endotoxin and serotonin, lowered metabolism.

I definately notice a huge difference in my hair during the summer months.

 

[tallglass13]

Progesterone Is Androgenic

I think that's dose dependant. The male testes produce around 2-3mg per day in a healthy individual.

The first time I tried it the hair on the last 2 inches of my legs regrew which would suggest an increase in androgens. Muscle mass also increased with no change to my twice weekly 30-40min workouts.

I believe progesterone improves the body's ability to lower or raise androgens as necessary and in response to environmental factors. Im sure Haidut has covered this in a post or during one of the chats with Danny. It should probably be viewed as the primary hormone of systemic health first and foremost.

Actually you're right and I agree with you, Ray has said in an interview that progesterone puts everything right down the middle, basically putting things where it needs to be. It does the same for me as well at 1 mg in DMSO. Ray in the Timpone interview stated up to 5 mg. it has been shown though however 20 mg can lower testosterone in some people. Of course that is only temporary and sometimes necessary.

 

[mrchibbs]

Thats interesting and not something I was aware of. Candida activity tends to increase during winter months. Reduced sunlight exposure is a big factor but it all fits in nicely with metabolism.

Increased pathogenic bacteria and fungus activity, increased endotoxin and serotonin, lowered metabolism.

I definately notice a huge difference in my hair during the summer months.

I think that goes for everyone. To me it seems like the pathology of baldness (serotonin, slow digestion, low vitamin D, hair in telogen etc.) is an indication of the body being in permanent winter/hibernation metabolism.

You need to break that cycle, and find ways to get vitamin D in winter and optimize light exposure, along with eating very very well and taking adaptogens to offset the stress of winter.

 

[Pablo Cruise]

Is there something new here? Look, based on my experience Fin by itself can do amazing things but I find at younger ages, ie, less than 40-45 yrs of age. Much is said of the addition of Minoxidil. I think RU is bull. I believe getting to 60 yrs of age hormonal changes make Fin pretty much useless. Derminator? Well try it but I am not a believer in micro needling but I do believe laser helmuts work....this topic here is a repeat of everything we know. Taurine works? Good.

 

[Yggr]

Yes it's a rehash and mark my words it'll be brought up endlessly.

 

[TiltMaster]

I only read the first two pages of this thread but it seems like this forum is miles behind on hair loss knowledge. Obviously DHT in itself does not cause hair loss, some guys cycle themselves up to absurd T levels (and thus DHT levels) without any kind of 5ARI and are fine hair loss wise.

The root of the problem is in the fact that hair follicles in the scalp of balding men get more and more sensitive to androgens over time. Obviously blocking DHT systemically is far from ideal, but it works very well in most people.

To add: there are a lot of complex pathways involved in hair loss and you might be able to stop hair loss without any anti androgen (be it topical or oral), but you'd have to really nail that formulation and the science for that is just not there yet. For those interested, check out this post. Down below this post is a screenshot of a potential hair loss cocktail that attacks all (known) angles.

https://www.hairlosscure2020.com/creating-the-ultimate-hair-loss-drug-cocktail/

I know it's not feasible to make such a topical due to stability, due to the fact it would cost an ungodly amount of money and due to the fact that some ingredients might interact with each other. But it's interesting to see nonetheless

 

[mrchibbs]

I only read the first two pages of this thread but it seems like this forum is miles behind on hair loss knowledge. Obviously DHT in itself does not cause hair loss, some guys cycle themselves up to absurd T levels (and thus DHT levels) without any kind of 5ARI and are fine hair loss wise.

The root of the problem is in the fact that hair follicles in the scalp of balding men get more and more sensitive to androgens over time. Obviously blocking DHT systemically is far from ideal, but it works very well in most people.

lolll you should be a comedian

 

[mrchibbs]

Yes it's a rehash and mark my words it'll be brought up endlessly.

Every few months like clockwork.

 

[Mister]

Someone here use zix? (zinc + vit b6)

 

[mrchibbs]

Someone here use zix? (zinc + vit b6)

I don't use it but I think it's good stuff.

 

[TiltMaster]

lolll you should be a comedian

Like it or not, people with moderate to aggressive MPB are simply not going to maintain without some sort of anti-androgen or 5ARI, whether it's topical or systemical.