DHT Causes Hair Loss, You Sure About That?

[jonnytrigger]

Would you be willing to give any information about yourself? Things like your age, lifestyle, DIET, what an average day has looked like for you since your hair loss started and even what an average day has looked like for you over the last few years even before you noticed hair loss if you can remember. And things like how much do you sit at a desk on a computer/phone every day? How is your posture? Are you around EMFs? Do you get sunshine? How much social interaction? Stress levels? Drug use? Any diets you tried like fasting or no carb? Have you had blood tests? Any other thyroid tests like waking temp or pulse? Do you walk much? Tight neck/skull muscles or clicking jaw, or any other illnesses or things you have noticed about yourself? Are you able to move and pinch the skin on your scalp? How are your breathing patterns, hyperventilating or slow controlled breathing? Do you use styling products in your hair? How is your digestion? Food allergies/intolerances? Do you over train in gym, or running?

Or better yet, don't answer these questions on the forum, but write them down and answer for yourself, research about each one, and then many more. All of the things I mentioned above can be, in my opinion, just some of the causes of hair loss. There are endless questions like those that you need to think about. There are just too many variables for a one answer solution to hair loss. I believe that your whole life up until you start losing hair was the reason for hair loss. Once again, I'm no expert, but from everything I've read and researched, and my own personal experience, I believe that you could put the exact same baby from birth until they are 30 years old into a number of different scenarios(meaning their whole life is different; country, lifestyle, upbringing all different) and in the end some would have perfect hair and some wouldn't.

Currently you seem like you're in a state of helplessness, refusing to believe that hair loss can be stopped, and it was just bad luck, too bad now, too late, nothing you can do about it now except for taking drugs that will turn you into a b****. I used to be the same, and it's a dark path to go down. If someone is actually believing this, its probably not going to be possible for them to fix their hair loss. You need to change your outlook.

Like I said, I believe it can be little things that you were doing or foods that you were eating(or not eating) or certain habits that you didn't even know about, from since you were born until now, that are impacting your overall health and hair. What you need to do is find out as much about your own body as you can, since everyone is different. Improve your lifestyle in all area's possible, and then take supplements if needed.

Since starting to do this for myself, I have discovered so many things and habits I have been doing my whole life that were affecting me negatively health wise. I can also safely say that any hair loss I was experiencing has stopped and my hair is noticeably thicker now, along with many other health benefits.

I'm 23 and have always ate relatively healthy from very young age. very active different sports etc. And just do homework outs now due to covid. Im relatively educated I have a MSc in a science subject. I've had lots of blood tests and all have been considered normal by GPs. I do have some sorta fluctuating inflammation affecting joints tho. I have a norwood 2 with some diffuse thinning from minoxidil use years ago.

You're getting too technical and vague. Because those variables you mentioned don't all cause hairloss. Jaw clicking? In clinical decision making you look for very relevant and realistic factors that could affect hair. Can't just include everything and anything, cos we might as well talk about god, daily wind speed, sleeping position etc.

I'm not helpless I'm in the process of fixing things and maybe will in a year or 2 since new things are on the pipeline in hairloss treatment.

Would you be willing to show some pictures of your hair progress tho. You can paint your face and completely hide identity. It's not difficult, when I've asked others in the past I get told you just have to believe me, but they don't believe research and systematic reviews to be valid.

 

[Broken man]

In the past I've heard georgi say dht actually grows hair and its high in hair loss sufferers because oestrogen is too high. He also says taurine grows hair better than finastride, note this study was in an insect less than the size of an ant. I have never seen any case report with proof than any of his supplements working as well as finastride, minoxidil and dht blockers whilst on the contrary there is plenty of amazing results with the dht theory.


Here is one this guy literally regrew his whole head of hair.

Finasteride decreases some interleukin man. If you will block Interleukin 17 you can change color of your hair from grey or regrow some.

 

[rr1]

jonnytrigger Even if I showed you perfect before and after photos of the best hair transformation you've ever seen, what would change? You should be constantly seeking to improve your health for your own reasons, not because some random person on the internet showed you a before and after photo.

I say jaw clicking because there are underlying reasons for this, which for me was grinding my teeth because of being highly serotonin-dominant, and partly because of poor posture which has taken nearly 6 months just to calm down my sternocleidomastoid muscle. This in turn was affecting my breathing. And on and on and on, like a domino effect. Who said anything about clinical decision making? I'm just a guy on the internet telling you what has worked for me. And what that is, is slowly learning as much as I can about my own body and looking to constantly improve my health.

And when you say you always ate relatively healthy, what does this even mean? I always thought I ate relatively healthy too, but in fact I couldn't have been further from the truth. Also I recommend to do consider the blood test normal yourself, through the endless research online. I've seen some GP's say a TSH of over 3 is normal, and vitamin D at the bottom of the range was normal, when in fact both of these are very suboptimal.

I think you need to do some more perceiving, thinking and acting. Or you can keep holding on for some magical hair loss cure, but just so you know, that may never come.

 

[MitchMitchell]

@MitchMitchell

Well we simply disagree. Merck made this exact argument in 1996-1997; arguing that 5-alpha enzymes are "useless" and therefore there was no harm in inhibiting their expression. To my reading the evidence shows that to be completely wrong and, more so, dangerous.

Much like DHEA or the Taurine/Glycine ratio are elevated in stress, or DHT is elevated in inflamed tissues, I think the up-regulation of the 5-alpha reductase enzyme is probably an adaptive trait, not causative to the problem itself and not something we want to suppress or inhibit.

I’m not saying they’re useless, where am I saying this? I’m saying the 5ar activity shouldn’t be elevated in a healthy person. I agree they’re an adaptive trait. But I’d want to inhibit the elevation because of immediate damage being done by having those 5a reduced hormones permanently elevated, and I’d try to work on the root cause behind their elevation which is lifestyle related.

The stress response (which elevates 5ar) is healthy but it ceases to be healthy when it’s active 24/7. It’s interesting how everybody here is so adamant about aromatase being such a “bad” enzyme and 5ar a wonderful thing. Both enzymes should remain under control, which means good insulin sensitivity, stable blood sugar, a host of things really.

 

[MitchMitchell]

Effect of Testosterone Supplementation With and Without a Dual 5α-Reductase Inhibitor on Fat-Free Mass in Men With Suppressed Testosterone Production A Randomized Controlled Trial

the relationship of testosterone concentrations with these outcomes did not differ between the dutasteride and placebo groups despite substantial differences in DHT concentrations. Thus, the inhibition of testosterone’s conversion to DHT by dutasteride had no significant effect on the ability of testosterone to exert its effects on muscle mass and strength, sexual function, erythropoiesis, plasma lipid levels, prostate volume, and sebum production. Instead, over the range of testosterone concentrations that were achieved (and which spanned the entire physiological male range and extended well into the subphysiological and supraphysiological range for men), testosterone was able to subserve all androgen-dependent functions that were studied herein, including maintenance of prostate volumes, PSA levels, and sebum production.

Why then did the steroid 5α-reductase system evolve for androgens? Forty-six XY males with steroid 5α-reductase deficiency exhibited ambiguous or female external genitalia at birth and poor prostate development, but underwent normal muscle and bone development during pubertal transition.6,7,39 The phenotype of these patients suggests that steroid 5α-reductase plays an essential role in the development of prostate and phallus by providing local amplification of an androgenic signal without systemic hyperandrogenemia during critical periods of sexual differentiation, illustrating nature’s extraordinary ingenuity in creating mechanisms for tissue-selective amplification during development.

We speculate that in adult men, in whom this tissue-specific amplification is not essential because the circulating testosterone concentrations are substantially higher than those in the fetus, testosterone and DHT can interchangeably subserve many androgenic functions. When circulating testosterone concentrations are low, intraprostatic DHT formation may become important in maintaining prostate growth, thus buffering the effects of decreasing testosterone levels, which has been suggested by Marks et al.

@tankasnowgod the bold part is probably the most accurate theory to why future parents shouldn’t be taking this drug (see: Ashton Kutcher)

Our model predicts that there may be an interaction between testosterone concentrations and administration of 5α-reductase inhibitors such that in men with low testosterone, inhibition of testosterone’s conversion to DHT may impair erectile function. Consistent with this model, men with benign prostatic hyperplasia who were receiving dutasteride and who had low testosterone concentrations were more likely to report sexual dysfunction than those with normal testosterone concentrations.38 Although young men in our trial and in a previous trial42 who received dutasteride reported satisfactory sexual intercourse, older men with low testosterone concentrations (the likely recipients of these drugs) may be at risk for developing erectile dysfunction when treated with 5α-reductase inhibitors.

This whole ED / sexual issue a low T problem. Maybe. Perhaps hair loss is a low T/(DHT+E2) problem. That’s why I’m not too surprised if restoring the T/metabolites ratio (with testosterone administration) seemed to work well in a 1960 study. As long as patients don’t have exaggerated enzyme activities

 

[jonnytrigger]

jonnytrigger Even if I showed you perfect before and after photos of the best hair transformation you've ever seen, what would change? You should be constantly seeking to improve your health for your own reasons, not because some random person on the internet showed you a before and after photo.

I say jaw clicking because there are underlying reasons for this, which for me was grinding my teeth because of being highly serotonin-dominant, and partly because of poor posture which has taken nearly 6 months just to calm down my sternocleidomastoid muscle. This in turn was affecting my breathing. And on and on and on, like a domino effect. Who said anything about clinical decision making? I'm just a guy on the internet telling you what has worked for me. And what that is, is slowly learning as much as I can about my own body and looking to constantly improve my health.

And when you say you always ate relatively healthy, what does this even mean? I always thought I ate relatively healthy too, but in fact I couldn't have been further from the truth. Also I recommend to do consider the blood test normal yourself, through the endless research online. I've seen some GP's say a TSH of over 3 is normal, and vitamin D at the bottom of the range was normal, when in fact both of these are very suboptimal.

I think you need to do some more perceiving, thinking and acting. Or you can keep holding on for some magical hair loss cure, but just so you know, that may never come.

I see what you're tryna say but you can't link everything to seretonin and thyroid like ray says he's not a medical doctor nor does he know everything health related. Now I'm not tryna discredit him but honestly you have to realise human physiology is lot more complex than thyroid and seretonin. And you have to accept peat isn't god and understands everything because everyone here seems to use his quotes as bible and reference him as if he's right in everything.

Clinical decision making is extremely important, some say as important as understanding how the body works or what pathology you're treating. When you become a clinician that is what's used to assess, diagnose and treat them etc, can't just pull out random strings or biases.

This is what wrong here no one uses a methodological or systematic way of assessing things but rather hope it's thyroid or seretonin or oestrogen. These things exist because they have a role in the body and crushing them won't make you healthier but unhealthy.

I didn't ask pictures for nothing I wanted to see whether what you say works. That's the whole point of it mate

 

[jonnytrigger]

Finasteride decreases some interleukin man. If you will block Interleukin 17 you can change color of your hair from grey or regrow some.

It may but, Georgi has even recommended an oestrogen blocker lol, he's absolutely a quack saying that would help grow hair in men who have normal levels of oestrogen. Can't just become a doctor and recommend nasty ***t when all of a sudden he became interested in science when he was a quote on quote computer geek

 

[Broken man]

It may but, Georgi has even recommended an oestrogen blocker lol, he's absolutely a quack saying that would help grow hair in men who have normal levels of oestrogen. Can't just become a doctor and recommend nasty ***t when all of a sudden he became interested in science when he was a quote on quote computer geek

He is researcher, dont understand your post man, what do you want to achieve with your post? I mean Georgi is trying and has some good points, nobody is perfect.

 

[MitchMitchell]

He is researcher, dont understand your post man, what do you want to achieve with your post? I mean Georgi is trying and has some good points, nobody is perfect.

he’s making embarrassing recommendations and interpretations of low quality studies, and his anti mainstream science stance is only echoed here in a day and age where people are losing confidence in western medicine because “alternatives” are gaining ground. When in reality it’s just inferior solutions that want their slice of the big lucrative health pie.

“they’re all wrong I know better” getting old. Youtubers burn out quick when their hypothesis never stand the test of time.

 

[jonnytrigger]

He is researcher, dont understand your post man, what do you want to achieve with your post? I mean Georgi is trying and has some good points, nobody is perfect.

What bothers me is that he is so confidently saying things that are wild or untrue. He finds anything under a rock to support the use of his supplements with big claims that don't really match the real data. Everyone else according to him even likes of david sinclair is this and that whilst hes the better more knowledgeable man in their speciality. There's things he doesn't understand and is misleading people.

 

[GorillaHead]

I think everyone here is losing each other in translation.

this may or may not be because people dont understand that the skin is an organ capable of steroidgenesis. Localized steroids is very different than serum.


Many studies have found high levels of dht in inflammatory conditions.

i mean you can easily pull up a study that shows bph tissur has high copper. Does that mean copper causes bph.


Dht is most likely a mediator in a much larger cascade.

while one can use arguments and say women who use finasteride often dont see benefits. I will say that there are multiple different pathways that present themselves in the same way.


Ive seen. Pcos. Extreme hypothyroidism and cushings all present a symptom that looks exactly like mpb yet different solutions worked


The more you try to go deeper in the cascade the more you will blame substances in the body for hairloss that if inhibited could wreak catastrophe on the body.

for example did u know pgd2 is needed for sperm development.

 

[Broken man]

he’s making embarrassing recommendations and interpretations of low quality studies, and his anti mainstream science stance is only echoed here in a day and age where people are losing confidence in western medicine because “alternatives” are gaining ground. When in reality it’s just inferior solutions that want their slice of the big lucrative health pie.

“they’re all wrong I know better” getting old. Youtubers burn out quick when their hypothesis never stand the test of time.

This is not true at all, more and more people are using DHEA and pregnenolone for anti aging... his view about estrogen and prolactin and general health is also true and I know this from myself, I have blood tests done and this forum and especially him helped me alot but I needed to change it little bit. You seems like angry guy who is trying to show that Georgi is bad but he isnt, if you want, try finasteride and you will see man.

 

[mrchibbs]

You give thyroid way too much credit in terms of hair loss. Most people with full heads of hair don't have ray peat accredited thyroid scores.

This study showed better wound healing from aloe vera over t3.

A comparative study of the effects of topical application of Aloe vera, thyroid hormone and silver sulfadiazine on skin wounds in Wistar rats

There are a lot of good forum threads on the topic for you to read. The case has been made many times, and overlooking the importance of thyroid function for hair is likely to lead to reductionist approaches which tackle the problem from incoherent perspectives:

Bodó, E., et al. Human female hair follicles are a direct, nonclassical target for thyroid-stimulating hormone. J Invest Dermatol. 2009 May;129(5):1126-39. “Hair follicles (HFs) represent one of the most hormone sensitive tissue interaction systems in the mammalian body and are exquisitely thyroid hormone-sensitive. It has been known for decades that thyroid disorders that lead to elevated or decreased thyroid hormone serum levels are associated with altered human skin and hair structure as well as function. This includes, for example a higher telogen rate altered hair diameter, dry, brittle, coarse hair, reduced hair bulb cell proliferation, in hypothyroidism, as well as increased hair bulb cell proliferation, and hair loss, and hair loss in hyperthyroidism.”

Vidali, S., et al. Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Thyroid Axis Hormones Stimulate Mitochondrial Function and Biogenesis in Human Hair Follicles. J Invest Dermatol. 2013 Jun 27. “The current data also provide clinically relevant pointers to how (Hair Follicle) aging and disease correlated with declining mitochondrial function might be effectively counteracted in the future by endogenous neurohormones produced in the human epithelium, e.g., TRH and TSH. This also applies to THs [thyroid hormones], which have long been known to modulate hair shaft quality and/or pigmentation. Both TRH and T4 are administered routinely in thyroid medicine and are FDA-approved agents with a well-known toxicity profile. Therefore, regulatory hurdles to reposition these hormones for novel ‘mitochondrial hair medicine’ approaches are relatively low.”

James, M.B., et al. Prevalence of Thyroid Abnormality Associated with Hair Loss. Hair Research. 1981. pp 358-362 “Our dermatology practice, having a population bias due to its location in an historic ‘goitre belt’ of the Midwest United States, has placed special emphasis upon problems of hair growth for over 20 years. Our records have been totally computerized for about 8 years, facilitating a retrospective study of 500 consecutive cases presenting with a chief complaint of hair loss of any kind. The information entered into this analysis consisted in part of the results of a survey which we utilize in the evaluation of all hair loss patients. We have included within this survey the significant parameters of family history along with those of personal habits and health. Preliminary results of the study presented to the North American Clinical Dermatologic Society included two important findings: * The first of these was the finding that hypothyroidism was present in the majority (65%) of all cases independent of all other factors. * The second was a 23% incidence of unrecognized hypothyroidism in males over 30 years of age with typical pattern baldness.”


Safer, J.D., et al. Topical triiodothyronine stimulates epidermal proliferation, dermal thickening, and hair growth in mice and rats. Thyroid. 2001 Aug;11(8):717-24. “The skin is a classic target tissue for thyroid hormone action.” “There was a dose-dependent increase in epidermal proliferation, dermal thickening, and hair growth in T3-treated animals.” “Thus, topically applied thyroid hormone has dramatic effects on both skin and hair growth. These observations offer a new strategy for developing thyroid hormone and its analogues for treating disorders of skin and hair growth.”

If you understand the relationship between thyroid hormone and lipid profiles:

Kim MW., et al. Lipid profile in patients with androgenetic alopecia: a meta-analysis. J Eur Acad Dermatol Venereol. 2016 Oct 7. “AGA patients showed statistically significant abnormal lipid profiles, and this might partly explain the association between AGA and cardiovascular diseases.”

This is just an example of the mountain of evidence which has been presented on this forum over the years. You can all find it if you start searching.

 

[GorillaHead]

There are a lot of good forum threads on the topic for you to read. The case has been made many times, and overlooking the importance of thyroid function for hair is likely to lead to reductionist approaches which tackle the problem from incoherent perspectives:

Bodó, E., et al. Human female hair follicles are a direct, nonclassical target for thyroid-stimulating hormone. J Invest Dermatol. 2009 May;129(5):1126-39. “Hair follicles (HFs) represent one of the most hormone sensitive tissue interaction systems in the mammalian body and are exquisitely thyroid hormone-sensitive. It has been known for decades that thyroid disorders that lead to elevated or decreased thyroid hormone serum levels are associated with altered human skin and hair structure as well as function. This includes, for example a higher telogen rate altered hair diameter, dry, brittle, coarse hair, reduced hair bulb cell proliferation, in hypothyroidism, as well as increased hair bulb cell proliferation, and hair loss, and hair loss in hyperthyroidism.”

Vidali, S., et al. Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Thyroid Axis Hormones Stimulate Mitochondrial Function and Biogenesis in Human Hair Follicles. J Invest Dermatol. 2013 Jun 27. “The current data also provide clinically relevant pointers to how (Hair Follicle) aging and disease correlated with declining mitochondrial function might be effectively counteracted in the future by endogenous neurohormones produced in the human epithelium, e.g., TRH and TSH. This also applies to THs [thyroid hormones], which have long been known to modulate hair shaft quality and/or pigmentation. Both TRH and T4 are administered routinely in thyroid medicine and are FDA-approved agents with a well-known toxicity profile. Therefore, regulatory hurdles to reposition these hormones for novel ‘mitochondrial hair medicine’ approaches are relatively low.”

James, M.B., et al. Prevalence of Thyroid Abnormality Associated with Hair Loss. Hair Research. 1981. pp 358-362 “Our dermatology practice, having a population bias due to its location in an historic ‘goitre belt’ of the Midwest United States, has placed special emphasis upon problems of hair growth for over 20 years. Our records have been totally computerized for about 8 years, facilitating a retrospective study of 500 consecutive cases presenting with a chief complaint of hair loss of any kind. The information entered into this analysis consisted in part of the results of a survey which we utilize in the evaluation of all hair loss patients. We have included within this survey the significant parameters of family history along with those of personal habits and health. Preliminary results of the study presented to the North American Clinical Dermatologic Society included two important findings: * The first of these was the finding that hypothyroidism was present in the majority (65%) of all cases independent of all other factors. * The second was a 23% incidence of unrecognized hypothyroidism in males over 30 years of age with typical pattern baldness.”


Safer, J.D., et al. Topical triiodothyronine stimulates epidermal proliferation, dermal thickening, and hair growth in mice and rats. Thyroid. 2001 Aug;11(8):717-24. “The skin is a classic target tissue for thyroid hormone action.” “There was a dose-dependent increase in epidermal proliferation, dermal thickening, and hair growth in T3-treated animals.” “Thus, topically applied thyroid hormone has dramatic effects on both skin and hair growth. These observations offer a new strategy for developing thyroid hormone and its analogues for treating disorders of skin and hair growth.”

If you understand the relationship between thyroid hormone and lipid profiles:

Kim MW., et al. Lipid profile in patients with androgenetic alopecia: a meta-analysis. J Eur Acad Dermatol Venereol. 2016 Oct 7. “AGA patients showed statistically significant abnormal lipid profiles, and this might partly explain the association between AGA and cardiovascular diseases.”

This is just an example of the mountain of evidence which has been presented on this forum over the years. You can all find it if you start searching.

I used to doubt alot of chibbs ideas on hair. But i have to stress the importance of this. Thyroid is most definitely related but its not so clear cut.

i have never seen a bald untreated hyperthyroid person. Cant even find documentation of one

 

[mrchibbs]

I’m not saying they’re useless, where am I saying this? I’m saying the 5ar activity shouldn’t be elevated in a healthy person. I agree they’re an adaptive trait. But I’d want to inhibit the elevation because of immediate damage being done by having those 5a reduced hormones permanently elevated, and I’d try to work on the root cause behind their elevation which is lifestyle related.

The stress response (which elevates 5ar) is healthy but it ceases to be healthy when it’s active 24/7. It’s interesting how everybody here is so adamant about aromatase being such a “bad” enzyme and 5ar a wonderful thing. Both enzymes should remain under control, which means good insulin sensitivity, stable blood sugar, a host of things really.

I just lumped what Merck was saying with your initial claim ''I don't see any essential 5-alpha-reduced hormones''. Sorry if that wasn't what you were saying. The reason for the adaptive systems, based on Ray's work, is stress-induced hypothyroidism and hypogonadism which turns on the adaptive systems. Your point regarding aromatase and 5a reduced is well taken, we do have a tendency to vilify aromatase and praise 5a reductase. That being said I may bias by the evidence I have seen regarding the effects of inhibiting. It's a field worth exploring, I recall reading that aromatase and 5a reductase are linked at some level, but I need to learn more about it.

 

[mrchibbs]

I used to doubt alot of chibbs ideas on hair. But i have to stress the importance of this. Thyroid is most definitely related but its not so clear cut.

i have never seen a bald untreated hyperthyroid person. Cant even find documentation of one

If that makes it better I used to greatly doubt this stuff too.

I've just seen so much evidence and it has shaped my view, clearly I'm bound to be wrong about a few things and I can overlook important cues, but I think there's enough evidence to make the case I'm making.

 

[mrchibbs]

It may but, Georgi has even recommended an oestrogen blocker lol, he's absolutely a quack saying that would help grow hair in men who have normal levels of oestrogen. Can't just become a doctor and recommend nasty ***t when all of a sudden he became interested in science when he was a quote on quote computer geek

Mockery says more about you than anything else. I don't think you're going to come close in contributing something with your life as Georgi has done and is doing.

 

[jonnytrigger]

he’s making embarrassing recommendations and interpretations of low quality studies, and his anti mainstream science stance is only echoed here in a day and age where people are losing confidence in western medicine because “alternatives” are gaining ground. When in reality it’s just inferior solutions that want their slice of the big lucrative health pie.

“they’re all wrong I know better” getting old. Youtubers burn out quick when their hypothesis never stand the test of time.

Someone that agrees with me lol

 

[MitchMitchell]

This is not true at all, more and more people are using DHEA and pregnenolone for anti aging... his view about estrogen and prolactin and general health is also true and I know this from myself, I have blood tests done and this forum and especially him helped me alot but I needed to change it little bit. You seems like angry guy who is trying to show that Georgi is bad but he isnt, if you want, try finasteride and you will see man.

Lol I’m not angry at all I just give it straight. I’ve already explained here that I’ve been using fin/dut on and off no problems just more watery semen which I found amusing.

And yeah some of his claims may be accurate, a broken clock can be right twice a day. So many wild inaccuracies though, I’m on a higher level of science than he is so it’s painfully obvious to me. But if his quackery suits your bias then good for you. In before “whatcha doin to contribute to life” well I work with stem cell researchers in the field of organ transplantation so let’s just say I’m used to pretty high standards in terms of what’s good research and publications.

 

[mrchibbs]

I’m on a higher level of science than he is so it’s painfully obvious to me. But if his quackery suits your bias then good for you.

To be honest, the only painful thing is your condescending and presumptuous tone.