DHT Causes Hair Loss, You Sure About That?

[MitchMitchell]

My issue with isolated researchers is that they aren’t immune to resorting to low quality studies to try and prove a point.

There have been many reviews of stuff like PFS, and in all high quality studies there’s no differences between control and 5ar groups, whereas in studies where guys are recruited on cesspits like hairloss forums then yeah - very bad stuff happens 75% of the time.

Skepticism goes both ways. 2% of guys for whom something bad may have happened still remains a decent number of people. Minorities can be very loud, they’re still minorities.

 

[mrchibbs]

My issue with isolated researchers is that they aren’t immune to resorting to low quality studies to try and prove a point.

There have been many reviews of stuff like PFS, and in all high quality studies there’s no differences between control and 5ar groups, whereas in studies where guys are recruited on cesspits like hairloss forums then yeah - very bad stuff happens 75% of the time.

Skepticism goes both ways. 2% of guys for whom something bad may have happened still remains a decent number of people. Minorities can be very loud, they’re still minorities.

I don't think this research is low quality. Moreover the body of research on 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors is getting larger every year. It's not easy to be a dissenting voice after decades of widespread use of these drugs. To me, it's self-evident that finasteride can be extremely dangerous, while even a drug like spironolactone is probably safer (not to say I recommend it). For sure, everyone has their own set of biases, but I think it's important to underline this research. There is no basis for saying it's safe outright.

 

[jonnytrigger]

@jonnytrigger

If you want to try finasteride yourself, it's perfectly in your rights. But minimizing the risk of 5-alpha-reductase inhibitors is completely irresponsible.

Saying things like ''only 2% have side effects'' is pure outdated Merck propaganda and is completely inconsistent with the literature over the past decade.

You cannot say these things when its abundantly clear these medications affect things like fundamental neurological pathways, brain chemistry, cardiovascular system on top of sexual function. Abdulmaged M Traish is the foremost researcher in this field and his output over the last 5-6 years is pretty unequivocal:

Traish AM - Search Results - PubMed

Focusing on scalp hair in isolation is an extremely slippery slope.

Risks exist with everything even with methelene blue which haidut thinks is super safe but can be very dangerous for some, I was an example. Even vitamins can be dangerous. But we can't just ignore the 90% plus success either.

I've tried fin didn't work that well although I mentioned why. But there must be a mechanism involved with dht that affects hair cycles. Or something else if not dht. Similar to thyroid being the regulator of metabolism you can't fix low metabolism by drinking coffee all day for instance.

 

[BigYellowLemon]

Lol I actually saw your comment on the video yesterday when this was posted.

 

[jonnytrigger]

My issue with isolated researchers is that they aren’t immune to resorting to low quality studies to try and prove a point.

There have been many reviews of stuff like PFS, and in all high quality studies there’s no differences between control and 5ar groups, whereas in studies where guys are recruited on cesspits like hairloss forums then yeah - very bad stuff happens 75% of the time.

Skepticism goes both ways. 2% of guys for whom something bad may have happened still remains a decent number of people. Minorities can be very loud, they’re still minorities.

That's right I still haven't properly recovered from the shed I got from minox three years ago. But I can't say it's useless and garbage and too dangerous for anyone to try because so many people see great results. I had many existing health issues which probably didn't go well with minoxidil.

 

[jonnytrigger]

Lol I actually saw your comment on the video yesterday when this was posted.

Hahah

Some guys here think dereks bro science and just trying sell his supplements. Haidut on the other hand seems quack

 

[mrchibbs]

Risks exist with everything even with methelene blue which haidut thinks is super safe but can be very dangerous for some, I was an example. Even vitamins can be dangerous. But we can't just ignore the 90% plus success either.

I've tried fin didn't work that well although I mentioned why. But there must be a mechanism involved with dht that affects hair cycles. Or something else if not dht. Similar to thyroid being the regulator of metabolism you can't fix low metabolism by drinking coffee all day for instance.

Now this is more reasonable.

You're perfectly right, we have to explore the mechanism of finasteride and minoxidil as they offer cues to understanding the physiology of hair. We can't "ignore" these drugs exist, and we haven't. They've been discussed in depth elsewhere on this forum.

Doesn't mean they should be used, or recommended however. We're not talking about 90%+ safety either. In terms of effectiveness, it's documented that we're talking about a 10% regrowth of hair, on average. I've cited the sources for this in other threads. Some young guys benefit greatly, and regrow 30% of their hair. Most men, as the problem sets in more deeply, experience negligible or no results at all on finasteride. An average of 10% regrowth is no cure, nor is it indicative that DHT is the main driver of hair loss, considering how effective finasteride is at tanking DHT levels.

With the work of Danny, and countless discussions on this forum, and very substantial evidence, we know that hair loss is a systemic problem. I personally am more interested in looking at it from a holistic perspective.

We know that finasteride is synthesized from progesterone. So it has to share some characteristics with its parent molecule. But there is very little research going deeper into this.

Minoxidil is also a bit nebulous, and we don't understand its mechanism too well. It might increase NO, but it's not clear. We do know however, that it blocks collagen formation and therefore can potentially have an anti-fibrotic effect when applied topically. The problem is what is it doing systemically? I don't think it's good at all. Its anti-collagen effect occurs by blocking lysyl hydroxylase and I think this effect builds up and can affect the body chemistry for years after ceasing its use.

Massage is safer if you want to break up fibrosis and increase circulation, but you need good thyroid function for it to work, without sufficient tissue energy, inflammation will go on and on and the fibrosis and calcification process just get worse.

We can have discussions on the minutae and try to have a civilized exchange on hair loss, but there is a lot of great content from brillant people to be found on the topic, scattered around the forum.

 

[jonnytrigger]

Now this is more reasonable.

You're perfectly right, we have to explore the mechanism of finasteride and minoxidil as they offer cues to understanding the physiology of hair. We can't "ignore" these drugs exist, and we haven't. They've been discussed in depth elsewhere on this forum.

Doesn't mean they should be used, or recommended however. We're not talking about 90%+ safety either. In terms of effectiveness, it's documented that we're talking about a 10% regrowth of hair, on average. I've cited the sources for this in other threads. Some young guys benefit greatly, and regrow 30% of their hair. Most men, as the problem sets in more deeply, experience negligible or no results at all on finasteride. An average of 10% regrowth is no cure, nor is it indicative that DHT is the main driver of hair loss, considering how effective finasteride is at tanking DHT levels.

With the work of Danny, and countless discussions on this forum, and very substantial evidence, we know that hair loss is a systemic problem. I personally am more interested in looking at it from a holistic perspective.

We know that finasteride is synthesized from progesterone. So it has to share some characteristics with its parent molecule. But there is very little research going deeper into this.

Minoxidil is also a bit nebulous, and we don't understand its mechanism too well. It might increase NO, but it's not clear. We do know however, that it blocks collagen formation and therefore can potentially have an anti-fibrotic effect when applied topically. The problem is what is it doing systemically? I don't think it's good at all. Its anti-collagen effect occurs by blocking lysyl hydroxylase and I think this effect builds up and can affect the body chemistry for years after ceasing its use.

Massage is safer if you want to break up fibrosis and increase circulation, but you need good thyroid function for it to work, without sufficient tissue energy, inflammation will go on and on and the fibrosis and calcification process just get worse.

We can have discussions on the minutae and try to have a civilized exchange on hair loss, but there is a lot of great content from brillant people to be found on the topic, scattered around the forum.

Energy metabolism probably can effect hair but doesn't help to stop further hairloss as much as fin does. That's why fin and hair stimulants work better combined. There was one study on twins using dutastrude and u can guess the dut group grew hair back to he controls didn't so dht deffo has a role.

Future research in twins may provide better understanding of these drugs and hair interventions really.

The problem I have with hollistic approach is it can get really vague and we might as well include holly spirits and psyche stuff, danny comes up with fancy theories that may sound good but not really practical. With his approach we should have grown full heads of hair by taking aspirin and correcting thyroid with diet

 

[mrchibbs]

Energy metabolism probably can effect hair but doesn't help to stop further hairloss as much as fin does. That's why fin and hair stimulants work better combined. There was one study on twins using dutastrude and u can guess the dut group grew hair back to he controls didn't so dht deffo has a role.

Future research in twins may provide better understanding of these drugs and hair interventions really.

The problem I have with hollistic approach is it can get really vague and we might as well include holly spirits and psyche stuff, danny comes up with fancy theories that may sound good but not really practical. With his approach we should have grown full heads of hair by taking aspirin and correcting thyroid with diet

I disagree. I don't think lowering DHT is the reason for regrowth.But fine,

And energy metabolism is closely linked with hair. The process of scalp hair cycles, which last years, is incredibly energy-intensive (compared to eyebrows or body hair cycles, which are short). Scalp hair growth requires excellent glucose metabolism, and is intimately linked to thyroid hormones, and vitamin D receptors, among other things.

These are also facts you cannot gloss over.

Correcting thyroid with diet alone is near impossible for many people. There is are many anti-thyroid factors in our environment, which we cannot come close to compensate by drinking milk and orange juice.

They're palliative measures, and I recommend Danny's aspirin video, aspirin is just part of lifestyle interventions.

It would be nice for sure to be able to regrow a full head of hair by taking aspirin once in a while, but I don't think that's the expectation.

 

[Kenny]

Now this is more reasonable.

You're perfectly right, we have to explore the mechanism of finasteride and minoxidil as they offer cues to understanding the physiology of hair. We can't "ignore" these drugs exist, and we haven't. They've been discussed in depth elsewhere on this forum.

Doesn't mean they should be used, or recommended however. We're not talking about 90%+ safety either. In terms of effectiveness, it's documented that we're talking about a 10% regrowth of hair, on average.
With the work of Danny, and countless discussions on this forum, and very substantial evidence, we know that hair loss is a systemic problem. I personally am more interested in looking at it from a holistic perspective.

Fin is for maintaining not for regrowing

 

[Zigzag]

Some people blast tren like there's no tomorrow and their hairlines stay intact others need to put estradiol on their scalps to see 10% regrowth. There's some hereditary factor that explains it for sure.

 

[mrchibbs]

Fin is for maintaining not for regrowing

Not really, it does regrow hair in men with relatively recent hair loss.

Moreover its effect diminishes after the 5 year mark, sometimes precipitously, so I don't see how you would argue it's for maintaining hair.

Minoxidil probably has a better track record of maintaining existing hair. (But things like topical caffeine, aspirin, zix, peppermint oil and licorice root extract are probably more effective and safer)

 

[mrchibbs]

Some people blast tren like there's no tomorrow and their hairlines stay intact others need to put estradiol on their scalps to see 10% regrowth. There's some hereditary factor that explains it for sure.

Hereditary yes, genetics no.

 

[Zigzag]

Hereditary yes, genetics no.

But what kind of factor. We don't really know. It might be only hair follicles that are affected or entire body and hair is just one symptom. I hope it's not the latter.

 

[jonnytrigger]

I disagree. I don't think lowering DHT is the reason for regrowth.But fine,

And energy metabolism is closely linked with hair. The process of scalp hair cycles, which last years, is incredibly energy-intensive (compared to eyebrows or body hair cycles, which are short). Scalp hair growth requires excellent glucose metabolism, and is intimately linked to thyroid hormones, and vitamin D receptors, among other things.

These are also facts you cannot gloss over.

Correcting thyroid with diet alone is near impossible for many people. There is are many anti-thyroid factors in our environment, which we cannot come close to compensate by drinking milk and orange juice.

They're palliative measures, and I recommend Danny's aspirin video, aspirin is just part of lifestyle interventions.

It would be nice for sure to be able to regrow a full head of hair by taking aspirin once in a while, but I don't think that's the expectation.[/QUOT

Taking taking thyroid drugs doesnt help either tho, many here think they need to get a perfect thyroid score otherwise their hair wouldn't grow, when really this isn't the case. How many people have you seen grow hair by taking thyroid orally or topically.

My tsh, was around 1.2 and my t3 quite high but losing alot of hair. Don't think thyroid is the manic cure to everything. Lots of fat people have good hair and lots of starved people that are pretty much fasting all the time also have very good hair. So I don't think perfect thyroid scores is the driver

 

[mrchibbs]

But what kind of factor. We don't really know. It might be only hair follicles that are affected or entire body and hair is just one symptom. I hope it's not the latter.

It's never just hair. Danny has never consulted with a guy or women losing hair over the past 7 years who said, "my temperature is 98.6F the second I wake up, I feel great my life is amazing, no problem it's just my hair" Every single one had subpar basal temperature and also had other symptoms like depression, gastro-intestinal issues, sexual problems. Sometimes it's not obvious to them, but their quality of life is very bad.

The hereditary factor is a transgenerational effect and differs from one person to another. It can involve cross-generational mineral deficiency. I have an article written on it that I never posted because I wasn't perfectly happy with it, but maybe I'll share it here.

 

[jonnytrigger]

Not really, it does regrow hair in men with relatively recent hair loss.

Moreover its effect diminishes after the 5 year mark, sometimes precipitously, so I don't see how you would argue it's for maintaining hair.

Minoxidil probably has a better track record of maintaining existing hair. (But things like topical caffeine, aspirin, zix, peppermint oil and licorice root extract are probably more effective and safer)

The saying is that dht apparently continues to miniturise hair follicles so that may explain why.

What's interesting is some guy grew a full beard with minoxidil but didn't lose any hair after stopping it why do you think that might be. Let's say dht doesn't affect beard hair growth

 

[mrchibbs]

My tsh, was around 1.2 and my t3 quite high but losing alot of hair. Don't think thyroid is the manic cure to everything. Lots of fat people have good hair and lots of starved people that are pretty much fasting all the time also have very good hair. So I don't think perfect thyroid scores is the driver

It sure makes more sense than DHT.

 

[mrchibbs]

The saying is that dht apparently continues to miniturise hair follicles so that may explain why.

What's interesting is some guy grew a full beard with minoxidil but didn't lose any hair after stopping it why do you think that might be. Let's say dht doesn't affect beard hair growth

Yeah I've known some people who grew beards with minoxidil. Two differences, beard hair is metabolically different than scalp hair, with a much shorter cycle. Also, the blood supply to the jaw and face is quite good compared to the vertex, which is the end of the main arteries, and the top of the scalp is basically fed by a gazillion small capillaries. If that surface gets fibrotic and calcified, it becomes very hard to grow hair.

 

[jonnytrigger]

Yeah I've known some people who grew beards with minoxidil. Two differences, beard hair is metabolically different than scalp hair, with a much shorter cycle. Also, the blood supply to the jaw and face is quite good compared to the vertex, which is the end of the main arteries, and the top of the scalp is basically fed by a gazillion small capillaries. If that surface gets fibrotic and calcified, it becomes very hard to grow hair.

I really would like to get deeper into this but have a whole dissertation to write with other things to do. I might have to change career and do hair loss research lol. Anyone on here an actual researcher? Not just in internet.

I've used stemoxydine with better results than almost everything I've tried in the past with zero initial shed. I'm planning on mixing adenosine to stemoxydine for topical application. Also looking into MNM too it seems to have some merits that may benefit hair loss.

Im planning on trying RU just for the sake. But might wait for CB3001 since it's close to being fda approved and safer than RU.

Someone really needs to research the energy pathway of hair tho I bet its more complicated than just apply this or eat this drug or vitamin.