Caffeine Increases DHT By Enhancing 5-alpha Reductase

[haidut]

post 104238 Do you think combining topical caffeine with pregnenolone and/or DHEA would help with it's conversion into DHT? or other androgens? If there is a concern with aromatization?

Given how androgenically DHEA is metabolized when administered topically I am not sure why you would want to increase that further. The goal is to restore proper steroid levels without activating negative feedback mechanisms. Search the forum for "DHEA androgenic" for more info.
The pregnenolone in Pansterone is there to keep the aromatization in check. Caffeine may force faster downstream steroid synthesis from DHEA but I don't have any info on it affecting how much DHEA will convert into DHT.
Try it out and let me know, it would be an interesting experiment.

 

[docall18]

post 72871

haidut: i was wondering about the caffeine for cleaning the liver. You said that caffeine forces the liver to clean/get ridd of the fat. When i take a big hit of caffeine esp on empty stomach etc i get really fatigued, tired etc. Is this because the liver dumps its stored fat into the bloodstream?

I know its the FFA that is causing this feeling since rp told me as well. But i never asked him where the FFA came from. So thats why i was asking you if it was the stored liver fat that was getting dumped out? or just stored FFA in general thats getting released from different places

It's quite possible that the amount of liver fat is released is big enough to be causing the fatigue, but much more fat from adipose tissue will be released as well if glycogen stores are low. So, make sure you take caffeine with enough sugar. The studies show that it will clear the liver fat even if you are primarily burning sugar.

Caffeine also makes me fatigued/lethargic. After a large dose of caffeine all i want to do is snooze. I dont get the adrenaline symptoms some get.

Is there any way to stop this? The caffeine is doing me alot of good. It makes me more relaxed, temperatures are increased, am sleeping better and I believe i have always had a bad liver.

I always take plenty of sugar with the caffeine. Would aspirin, niacinamide, taurine help/worsen the fatigue? Thnx.

 

[haidut]

post 117086

post 72871

haidut: i was wondering about the caffeine for cleaning the liver. You said that caffeine forces the liver to clean/get ridd of the fat. When i take a big hit of caffeine esp on empty stomach etc i get really fatigued, tired etc. Is this because the liver dumps its stored fat into the bloodstream?

I know its the FFA that is causing this feeling since rp told me as well. But i never asked him where the FFA came from. So thats why i was asking you if it was the stored liver fat that was getting dumped out? or just stored FFA in general thats getting released from different places

It's quite possible that the amount of liver fat is released is big enough to be causing the fatigue, but much more fat from adipose tissue will be released as well if glycogen stores are low. So, make sure you take caffeine with enough sugar. The studies show that it will clear the liver fat even if you are primarily burning sugar.

Caffeine also makes me fatigued/lethargic. After a large dose of caffeine all i want to do is snooze. I dont get the adrenaline symptoms some get.

Is there any way to stop this? The caffeine is doing me alot of good. It makes me more relaxed, temperatures are increased, am sleeping better and I believe i have always had a bad liver.

I always take plenty of sugar with the caffeine. Would aspirin, niacinamide, taurine help/worsen the fatigue? Thnx.

Taking some niacinamide may help. The fatigue could be from increased FFA in the blood.

 

[docall18]

post 117092

post 117086

post 72871

haidut: i was wondering about the caffeine for cleaning the liver. You said that caffeine forces the liver to clean/get ridd of the fat. When i take a big hit of caffeine esp on empty stomach etc i get really fatigued, tired etc. Is this because the liver dumps its stored fat into the bloodstream?

I know its the FFA that is causing this feeling since rp told me as well. But i never asked him where the FFA came from. So thats why i was asking you if it was the stored liver fat that was getting dumped out? or just stored FFA in general thats getting released from different places

It's quite possible that the amount of liver fat is released is big enough to be causing the fatigue, but much more fat from adipose tissue will be released as well if glycogen stores are low. So, make sure you take caffeine with enough sugar. The studies show that it will clear the liver fat even if you are primarily burning sugar.

Caffeine also makes me fatigued/lethargic. After a large dose of caffeine all i want to do is snooze. I dont get the adrenaline symptoms some get.

Is there any way to stop this? The caffeine is doing me alot of good. It makes me more relaxed, temperatures are increased, am sleeping better and I believe i have always had a bad liver.

I always take plenty of sugar with the caffeine. Would aspirin, niacinamide, taurine help/worsen the fatigue? Thnx.

Taking some niacinamide may help. The fatigue could be from increased FFA in the blood.

I will try the niacinamide. I have been taking it occasionally at 2-300mg/day. I will up that to 500mg/day and see how it goes.

I currently take Aspirin (1g/day), Taurine (2g/day), B1 (1g/day), K2, vit E, Glycine, b6, biotin. None of them seem to help with the tiredness from caffeine. T3 does help a bit however.

The lethargy/sleepiness feels similar to the effects i get from high dose progesterone and i know caffeine increases progesterone. Also, i have low Dhea with which to balance out extra progesterone. Is it possible that increased progesterone is the cause of the sleepiness?

 

[Brandon]

I know many people who have taken drugs like Finasteride for hair loss and prostate enlargement (BPH). The mechanism of action of those drugs is inhibition of the enzyme 5-alpha reductase (5-AR) and thus lowering levels of DHT, since DHT is blamed for the hair and prostate issues. Actually, DHT is the very reason for all masculine features of adult males and is used in France as a treatment for BPH. So, just like tianeptine DHT seems to work by doing the exact same things the pharma industry would have you believe are bad for you (i.e. tianeptine is a SSRE as opposed to SSRI like Prozac). In addition, and perhaps even more worrisome, by inhibiting that enzyme you also lower your levels of pregnenolone and DHEA. So, the 5-AR drugs seem to be a really, really bad choice!

Finasteride treatment and neuroactive steroid formation. - PubMed - NCBI

"...In the course of finasteride treatment the decrease of the concentration of circulating steroids with known inhibitory activity on GABA-ergic excitation in the brain is very probably an important factors contributing to the development of the symptoms of depression seen in some isolated cases of finasteride administration."

Studies on neurosteroids XXV. Influence of a 5alpha-reductase inhibitor, finasteride, on rat brain neurosteroid levels and metabolism. - PubMed - NCBI

"...The animal study using these methods demonstrated that FIN dose-dependently inhibits the stress-induced elevation of the brain AP (allopregnanolone), a potent positive modulator of the gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) type A receptors, and a 10 mg/kg dose of FIN can almost completely deplete AP in the brains."

I posted a study on relatively low doses of caffeine raising T and DHT levels. I suspected that this may occur through the enhancement of 5-AR and did some digging. There is in fact a study that supports my thinking, and it seems caffeine is in fact a 5-AR enhancer. If true, this is really good news b/c in addition to raising DHT caffeine should also raise the levels of pregnenolone, DHEA and progesterone in the brain, which is exactly what most people with neurological and mental issues need.

Sex hormones metabolism in the brain: influence of central acting drugs on 5 alpha-reduction in rat diencephalon. - PubMed - NCBI

"...Diencephalon 5 alpha-reductase activity showed a highly significant increase (p less than 0.01) after a single administration of carbamazepine, reserpine, diazepam, phenytoin, phenobarbital or disulfiram. A significant increase (p less than 0.05) was also found after a single administration of methylphenidate, caffeine or methamphetamine."

Why do these "DHT inhibiting drugs" on the market seem to (at least initially) work? Why are there results in the first place?

 

[mayweatherking]

I will try the niacinamide. I have been taking it occasionally at 2-300mg/day. I will up that to 500mg/day and see how it goes.

I currently take Aspirin (1g/day), Taurine (2g/day), B1 (1g/day), K2, vit E, Glycine, b6, biotin. None of them seem to help with the tiredness from caffeine. T3 does help a bit however.

The lethargy/sleepiness feels similar to the effects i get from high dose progesterone and i know caffeine increases progesterone. Also, i have low Dhea with which to balance out extra progesterone. Is it possible that increased progesterone is the cause of the sleepiness?

Doesnt the caffeine basically boost your metabolism? Maybe your not eating enough with it?

 

[lvysaur]

In higher doses though. In lower doses, zinc enhances 5-AR.

This seems to say otherwise:
Inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin by zinc and azelaic acid. - PubMed - NCBI

When the three substances were added together at very low concentrations which had been shown to be ineffective alone, 90% inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity was obtained.

Before I discovered Peat, I noticed that my hair saw huge recovery from eating oysters and liver or meat around the same time. Do you know anything about the combination of zinc and B6 and progesterone levels? I have a suspicion that they have their effect through increasing progesterone.

 

[snowboard111]

Why do these "DHT inhibiting drugs" on the market seem to (at least initially) work? Why are there results in the first place?

Have you listen to the podcast on hair loss? Haidut and Danny hypothesize/talked about it...

Finasteride has a similar structure (isomer) to progesterone. Progesterone in large doses affect negatively the androgens but in smaller doses it does the opposite and progesterone does quite a lot of thing that in theory would be good for hair.

And btw, the various statements made by Merck and such are to be taken with a grain of salts and as far as I know, they do not promote 5AR inhibitor as being
able to regrow hair but halt the progression of hair loss...

 

[Brandon]

Have you listen to the podcast on hair loss? Haidut and Danny hypothesize/talked about it...

Finasteride has a similar structure (isomer) to progesterone. Progesterone in large doses affect negatively the androgens but in smaller doses it does the opposite and progesterone does quite a lot of thing that in theory would be good for hair.

And btw, the various statements made by Merck and such are to be taken with a grain of salts and as far as I know, they do not promote 5AR inhibitor as being
able to regrow hair but halt the progression of hair loss...

Thanks. Yes I've listened to that particular podcast. I need to back and re-listen, but I don't recall them speaking deeply and precisely about what is occurring at the hair follicle that. I'll go back though, it's been a minute.

 

[haidut]

Thanks. Yes I've listened to that particular podcast. I need to back and re-listen, but I don't recall them speaking deeply and precisely about what is occurring at the hair follicle that. I'll go back though, it's been a minute.

I posted a study somewhere on the forum about it. Finasteride is not only structurally similar to progesterone, it also seems to increase serum progesterone, possibly by blocking its metabolism into allopregnenolone via he 5-AR pathway. The 5-AR pathway seems to be the preferred route for progesterone conversion and this is why a lower dose progesterone is considered for approval as an effective way to praise allopregnenolone and thus treat a number of conditions such as anxiety disorders, PTSD, post-finasteride syndrome, etc.

 

[Brandon]

I posted a study somewhere on the forum about it. Finasteride is not only structurally similar to progesterone, it also seems to increase serum progesterone, possibly by blocking its metabolism into allopregnenolone via he 5-AR pathway. The 5-AR pathway seems to be the preferred route for progesterone conversion and this is why a lower dose progesterone is considered for approval as an effective way to praise allopregnenolone and thus treat a number of conditions such as anxiety disorders, PTSD, post-finasteride syndrome, etc.

Oh, okay. Thanks, I appreciate that. I'll read up and learn more.

 

[paymanz]

After reading the study I just wanted to point out that caffeine increased 5-AR activity by more than 30%, while other agents used like phenytoin and diazepam increased 5-AR activity by more than 2-fold. If niacinamide is a true benzodiazepine drug like Diazepam (as many Russian studies claim), then I wonder if niacinamide would also have the same activity - i.e. enhance 5-AR and increase DHT...

I looked at full paper,they also used olive oil ,saline,...I didn't get where it shows two fold increase in 5 alpha reductase.
Olive oil and saline showing similar increase too!

I also like to know how much does it effect on enzyme apply to other party's of body?

 

[paymanz]

The diazepam effect on 5 alpha should be through gaba effect.

i may start taking clonazepam for a while to see how it work,for increasing my DHT levels.it seems safe and fun as long as you dont get addicted to it.(just my personal opinion)
also valerian,melissa officianalis should have similar effects as benzo.

anyone knows what ray thinks about benzo drugs?

 

[paymanz]

i found some info never seen before,take a look. The Concept of Gender Specific Meals

Beef Fat
The fat from a cow contains oleyl alcohol. This compound actually increases DHT production. In addition to this compound, beef fat contains the perfect types of fatty acids for natural DHT production.

Modern Butter
Butter contains the right types of fatty acids to produce natural DHT levels. In contrast, Grass Finished butter actually causes a decrease in DHT production due to its higher omega 3 fatty acid content. The best type would be from cows with no added hormones because often they use estrogen to fatten up the cow and this carries into the butter.

Extra Virgin Olive Oil
Olive Oil is the least safe fat source for men. Olive Oil does in fact lower DHT formation due to its high Oleic acid content. It is unique in that it counter acts this inhibition. A chemical in olive oil called Oleuropein increases testosterone as well as lowers estrogens creation.

Celery
This stalk is very good for DHT production. It is the highest source of a hormone called androsterone. This is a DHT precursor and will lead to increased DHT levels.

Chicken Heart
This food is a perfect food for DHT. Chicken heart contains one of the highest sources of phosphatidylserine. This chemical has been found increase DHT production in the body.

Potatoes
This starch is perfect to maintain DHT levels. It doesn't impact DHT levels to the extent that other carbohydrate sources do. When made into fries, the best oil would be olive oil.

Eggs
Chicken eggs are great for DHT. They contain cholesterol which is a building block of DHT. Non Grass fed chickens are better because they contain less DHA which is a DHT inhibitor.

i just not sure how legit are those claims. androsterone level in plants probably is too tiny to make any change to body.but im not sure again.

 

[TubZy]

This is a really interesting post. I've made an almost-full recovery from PFS the past few years, and coffee has always been a love-hate sort of thing with me. My symtoms seem to get worse with large amounts of coffee.

You see, while coffee may or may not be a mild 5-AR catalyst, it undoubtedly has a strong progesterone effect. Progesterone opposes DHT, and in the male body it is ideal to keep these two hormones in a balanced ratio. I think that in a healthy individuals body, these two effects will synergize and benefit without problems. However, with a pfs sufferer, the DHT is already low, so the increase from coffee will be proportionally less, while the progesterone effect will remain just as strong.

The bottom line is that for someone dealing with PFS, copious amounts of coffee (like ray's suggested 5+cups per day) are not going to help sensitize your body to DHT. I would stick with a cup or two max, if you feel like it benefits you.

Also, Danny Roddy did an article specifically about PFS! He's mentioned the subject before, but it was really nice to see him finally address it and give his thoughts.
You can read it here http://www.dannyroddy.com/06-14

The thing is though, most people who have/had PFS have normal hormone DHT and T levels. Even normal estrogen and prolactin which makes it so confusing to treat. That is why a lot of people believe it's down to the receptor level.

 

[TheArtofHealth]

Super interesting study about the gender specific foods... Was recentl reading about how Native Americans similarly ate according to the needs of men/ women.

Anyone else able to speak to the validity of that study posted above?

 

[sladerunner69]

The thing is though, most people who have/had PFS have normal hormone DHT and T levels. Even normal estrogen and prolactin which makes it so confusing to treat. That is why a lot of people believe it's down to the receptor level.

Yeah I have read that on the pfs forums before, although I am not sure I believe it. In my own experience, the year after my crash I had really ridiculously bad blood panel results. My testosterone was below 50, my prolactin was in the 30's, my dht was non existant, my estrogen and cortisol were high, my tsh was low, my cholestrol was really high, etc etc etc.

Danny Roddy did a generative energy episode with Haduit about PFS, I highly recommend you listen tot he whole thing if you havent because there is a lot of great informaiton shared in that, and Danny explained that he gets questions all the time from guys looking for help and they always have something that could use serious improvement on their blood tests.

If my blood tests really were considerred optimal by our standards, then I would still focus on a solid diet and lifestyle plan that minimized stress and had low frequency weighttraining, light exposure, and even mental stress management int he form of meditation or yoga. The first guy who made a full recovery from propecia that I know of, did so on a paleo diet with tons of vegetables and fish, and a multivitamin. Not peaty by any means. He sweared off the pfs disaster forums because he cosniderred them depressing and opposed his mental stability. He really focussed on the mental stress aspect, he even moved to rural china and learned to meditate like the monks there, while focussing on vegetables and animal meat. After 3 years he said claimed he was fully healed, and started sharing his plan with others until his website was shutdown a couple years ago.

What I guess my point is, is that the human body is highly adaptive and can thrive on a number of different diet tequniques. Yes, I believe peat is absolutely correct in his nutrition approach of high metabolism being the optimal diet, but often here we negate the importance of sturdy mental health and positive productive thinking and emotional control. Meditation is probably a great tool for improving and being consistent with recovery from pfs.

 

[sladerunner69]

I posted a study somewhere on the forum about it. Finasteride is not only structurally similar to progesterone, it also seems to increase serum progesterone, possibly by blocking its metabolism into allopregnenolone via he 5-AR pathway. The 5-AR pathway seems to be the preferred route for progesterone conversion and this is why a lower dose progesterone is considered for approval as an effective way to praise allopregnenolone and thus treat a number of conditions such as anxiety disorders, PTSD, post-finasteride syndrome, etc.

I always looked at PFS as having a large high progesterone component that was opposing DHT. It never occured to me that progesterone could be converted into allapreg. This actually explains why some get results from supplementing progesterone.

I think I will give low dose progest a go, are there any particular sides I should look out for?

 

[bloom]

Hey haidut i have PFS and I am covinced that the problem is a downregulation of the 5ar in the Brain. Alot of guys report getting worse on TRT, DHT, Creatine, Sorghum flour. While getting better on subtances which enhance GABA activity (benzodiazepines, alcohol, marijuana) caffeine aswell, i also get huge improvements on high doses of Nicotinamide. I fall into the latter camp (the study states they observed an increase in the 5ar enzyme in the diencephalon). I've also noticed that high doses(500mg +) of Glycine improve my symptoms while low doses worsen my symptoms supporting my belief that it is predominately a 5ar depletion in the Brain. It seems as though increasing DHT levels peripherally (superficially), results in a negative feedback, on the HPG axis? i'm not sure. While increasing 5ar in the CNS circumvents this, and treats the problem more directly. The problem with using valium and other GABA enhacing substances is obvious, dependence ect. Its not a good long term solution. The other drugs mentioned will be hard to get from a Dr, especially for treating PFS. Can you think of anything else which might specifically increase 5ar in the brain? Thanks in advance.

 

[haidut]

Hey haidut i have PFS and I am covinced that the problem is a downregulation of the 5ar in the Brain. Alot of guys report getting worse on TRT, DHT, Creatine, Sorghum flour. While getting better on subtances which enhance GABA activity (benzodiazepines, alcohol, marijuana) caffeine aswell, i also get huge improvements on high doses of Nicotinamide. I fall into the latter camp (the study states they observed an increase in the 5ar enzyme in the diencephalon). I've also noticed that high doses(500mg +) of Glycine improve my symptoms while low doses worsen my symptoms supporting my belief that it is predominately a 5ar depletion in the Brain. It seems as though increasing DHT levels peripherally (superficially), results in a negative feedback, on the HPG axis? i'm not sure. While increasing 5ar in the CNS circumvents this, and treats the problem more directly. The problem with using valium and other GABA enhacing substances is obvious, dependence ect. Its not a good long term solution. The other drugs mentioned will be hard to get from a Dr, especially for treating PFS. Can you think of anything else which might specifically increase 5ar in the brain? Thanks in advance.

DHEA and androsterone increase 5-AR activity.