Caffeine Increases DHT By Enhancing 5-alpha Reductase

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by haidut, Apr 9, 2014.

  1. haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,713
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    I know many people who have taken drugs like Finasteride for hair loss and prostate enlargement (BPH). The mechanism of action of those drugs is inhibition of the enzyme 5-alpha reductase (5-AR) and thus lowering levels of DHT, since DHT is blamed for the hair and prostate issues. Actually, DHT is the very reason for all masculine features of adult males and is used in France as a treatment for BPH. So, just like tianeptine DHT seems to work by doing the exact same things the pharma industry would have you believe are bad for you (i.e. tianeptine is a SSRE as opposed to SSRI like Prozac). In addition, and perhaps even more worrisome, by inhibiting that enzyme you also lower your levels of pregnenolone and DHEA. So, the 5-AR drugs seem to be a really, really bad choice!

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19655698

    "...In the course of finasteride treatment the decrease of the concentration of circulating steroids with known inhibitory activity on GABA-ergic excitation in the brain is very probably an important factors contributing to the development of the symptoms of depression seen in some isolated cases of finasteride administration."

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18758053

    "...The animal study using these methods demonstrated that FIN dose-dependently inhibits the stress-induced elevation of the brain AP (allopregnanolone), a potent positive modulator of the gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) type A receptors, and a 10 mg/kg dose of FIN can almost completely deplete AP in the brains."

    I posted a study on relatively low doses of caffeine raising T and DHT levels. I suspected that this may occur through the enhancement of 5-AR and did some digging. There is in fact a study that supports my thinking, and it seems caffeine is in fact a 5-AR enhancer. If true, this is really good news b/c in addition to raising DHT caffeine should also raise the levels of pregnenolone, DHEA and progesterone in the brain, which is exactly what most people with neurological and mental issues need.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/477622

    "...Diencephalon 5 alpha-reductase activity showed a highly significant increase (p less than 0.01) after a single administration of carbamazepine, reserpine, diazepam, phenytoin, phenobarbital or disulfiram. A significant increase (p less than 0.05) was also found after a single administration of methylphenidate, caffeine or methamphetamine."
     
  2. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,713
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    After reading the study I just wanted to point out that caffeine increased 5-AR activity by more than 30%, while other agents used like phenytoin and diazepam increased 5-AR activity by more than 2-fold. If niacinamide is a true benzodiazepine drug like Diazepam (as many Russian studies claim), then I wonder if niacinamide would also have the same activity - i.e. enhance 5-AR and increase DHT...
     
  3. jaguar43

    jaguar43 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,310
    I wonder what Dr. Peat would have to say ? This post is pretty interesting.
     
  4. Nabati

    Nabati Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2014
    Messages:
    6
    haidut, thanks for posting this. I really wish someone would ask Peat about drugs like finasteride and put forward some pointed questions like you have here.

    If you get the chance, have you known anyone who took a 5-alpha reductase inhibitor and then ditched it for a Peat-inspired health plan? Obviously Danny Roddy has that story, but are there any others?
     
  5. sladerunner69

    sladerunner69 Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    3,033
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Econ Student
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    This is a really interesting post. I've made an almost-full recovery from PFS the past few years, and coffee has always been a love-hate sort of thing with me. My symtoms seem to get worse with large amounts of coffee.

    You see, while coffee may or may not be a mild 5-AR catalyst, it undoubtedly has a strong progesterone effect. Progesterone opposes DHT, and in the male body it is ideal to keep these two hormones in a balanced ratio. I think that in a healthy individuals body, these two effects will synergize and benefit without problems. However, with a pfs sufferer, the DHT is already low, so the increase from coffee will be proportionally less, while the progesterone effect will remain just as strong.

    The bottom line is that for someone dealing with PFS, copious amounts of coffee (like ray's suggested 5+cups per day) are not going to help sensitize your body to DHT. I would stick with a cup or two max, if you feel like it benefits you.

    Also, Danny Roddy did an article specifically about PFS! He's mentioned the subject before, but it was really nice to see him finally address it and give his thoughts.
    You can read it here http://www.dannyroddy.com/06-14
     
  6. j.

    j. Guest

    So coffee can be then a good diagnostic tool for your recovery process. The more you can drink it without problems, the more progress you've made.
     
  7. sladerunner69

    sladerunner69 Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    3,033
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Econ Student
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Yes, I suppose. I can certainly handle more coffee now than a year ago.

    Although I do feel somewhat that those who just crashed should stay away from caffiene altogether for a while.
     
  8. BingDing

    BingDing Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    923
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tennessee, USA
    I was researching allopregnanolone and found some stuff relevant on the Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allopregnanolone. Allopregnanolone appears to be a good thing all around.

    5-AR catalyzes the first step in converting progesterone to allopregnanolone, that may be one of the general good effects of progesterone.

    Substitute Progest-E for OMP and it looks good.

    Also,

    Sorry if this is a non-sequitur to the thread, I didn't really follow the DHT part.
     
  9. BobbyDukes

    BobbyDukes Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Messages:
    345
    Haidut, did you ever come across any info on niacinamide being a 5ar enhancer?
     
  10. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,713
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    Unfortunately, I could not find anything on Pubmed related to niacinamide and 5-AR. Since the effects of niacinamide as a benzo are mostly recognized in Russia I doubt we'd see many/any studies on that.
     
  11. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2013
    Messages:
    7,368
    It's interesting that zinc and vitamin b6 can inhibit the 5-alpha-reductase.
     
  12. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,713
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    In higher doses though. In lower doses, zinc enhances 5-AR. Here is a human study showing increased testosterone and DHT from 60mg zinc daily for 45-50 days.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7271365

    Most of the animal and human studies I have seen show zinc in doses <100mg daily is pro-testosterone and pro-DHT. In higher doses it reduces those hormones and interestingly it also increases prolactin. Here is one study on that as well.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19881149
     
  13. kineticz

    kineticz Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2014
    Messages:
    496
    Occupation:
    Sitting on computer while magic fairy pays my bill
    Location:
    West Midlands, GB
    Just to confirm, how does allopregnanolone relate to pregnenolone. Thanks
     
  14. paymanz

    paymanz Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2015
    Messages:
    2,654
    Gender:
    Male
    so caffeine increase or decrease DHT ?! DHT is not a good thing right?!
     
  15. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,713
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    In lower doses 200mg-400mg caffeine seems to increase DHT. In higher doses, caffeine raises progesterone and that likely opposes DHT.
    As far as DHT being good or bad - I think it is considered by Peat to be a "good" steroid but progesterone is preferable to him. Somebody asked him if it would be OK to supplement with DHT and he said "Yes, as long as it is clear of any bad excipients".
     
  16. RPDiciple

    RPDiciple Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2015
    Messages:
    257
    haidut: i was wondering about the caffeine for cleaning the liver. You said that caffeine forces the liver to clean/get ridd of the fat. When i take a big hit of caffeine esp on empty stomach etc i get really fatigued, tired etc. Is this because the liver dumps its stored fat into the bloodstream?

    I know its the FFA that is causing this feeling since rp told me as well. But i never asked him where the FFA came from. So thats why i was asking you if it was the stored liver fat that was getting dumped out? or just stored FFA in general thats getting released from different places
     
  17. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2013
    Messages:
    16,713
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA / Europe
    It's quite possible that the amount of liver fat is released is big enough to be causing the fatigue, but much more fat from adipose tissue will be released as well if glycogen stores are low. So, make sure you take caffeine with enough sugar. The studies show that it will clear the liver fat even if you are primarily burning sugar.
     
  18. RPDiciple

    RPDiciple Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2015
    Messages:
    257
  19. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    11,173
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA
  20. Fetch

    Fetch Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2015
    Messages:
    117
    Do you think combining topical caffeine with pregnenolone and/or DHEA would help with it's conversion into DHT? or other androgens? If there is a concern with aromatization?
     
Loading...