DHT Causes Hair Loss, You Sure About That?

[mrchibbs]

i guess we are going to restart the condescending and evidenceless dance of hating on the guy for pointing out fin is the only approach that consistently demonstrates results.

I mean come on man.

in entire "ray peat/danny roddy" sphere have been like 2 guys who got "regrowth". Half of whom had a severe vitamin D deficiency they corrected.

Offering some compelling evidence of why fin doesn't work, or why something else does work, would be productive.

Saying lololo im right you're wrong isn't productive.

With all due respect we have offered and debated a lot of evidence on this forum.

The only thing that's not productive is people coming here and dismissing all of that on the basis of the baseless mainstream androgen sensitivity theory.

Do you have any idea how many times we've had to repeat this process because people are not bothered to search for previous threads?

You are free to use finasteride, nobody is stopping you. But if thats all you're trying to bring to the discussion, dont bother.

 

[TiltMaster]

Okay fair enough, apparently I'm a fool for "buying into" the androgen sensitivity theory and fimasteride does not work. I disagree but whatever.

Can someone show me evidence of people regrowing hair with just scalp massages/supplements/diet/whatever and is not a shill? Like someone (preferably someone who has no monetary interest in good results) who documented their hair loss journey.

Also, I saw a post about zix a page ago and people on here approved of zix. Zix contains zinc, and the way it can work against hair loss is through downregulating expression of AR. People have been using it as a topical for a while and getting decent results.

 

[TiltMaster]

I'm not going to get into an argument again, but Rob English has plenty of pictures of regrowth from lifestyle+massages and yes he's 100% trustworthy, even if I don't agree with everything he says.

I looked up this Rob English and even he states on his website perfecthairhealth.com:

"So I decided to write a manuscript detailing my hypotheses on the causes on androgenic alopecia, its rate-limiting recovery factors, and why DHT-reducing drugs are mainly limited to stopping the progression of hair loss (rather than fully reversing it)."

So he acknowledges that blocking DHT indeed is helpful in stopping hair loss. Btw, steer clear of people selling books regarding hair loss (like this guy). It has happened time and time again in the hair loss community and it's always a scam to some degree. Also watch out for people that are affiliated with certain companies/amazon products. They are sometimes not even scammers per se (Derek from MorePlatesMoreDates seems legit) but some will definitely hype up how well a certain product or treatment regime worked for them.

 

[Zigzag]

So he acknowledges that blocking DHT indeed is helpful in stopping hair loss.

Because it obviosuly is. It doesn't mean that DHT is the cause though. There might be some other massive cascade and DHT is just a symptom of it. But hey, we'll probably never know because finasteride is $$$.

 

[Inaut]

VItamin D in the navel for the win. I won’t take it orally ever again. No hair regrowth though...

 

[mrchibbs]

Rob English has a paid site now, but a few years ago he had a written a book and documented a dozen regrowth stories from guys using massage approach and pro-thyroid lifestyle changes. Since then he has published academic articles in mainstream and he is a fulltime researcher and coach. And yeah he believes like the consensus says DHT is part of the downstream process. Like I said I dont agree with all of his ideas but he's a great guy and totally trustworthy. His 2016 book is still excellent, just as good as Hair like a fox.

 

[mrchibbs]

VItamin D in the navel for the win. I won’t take it orally ever again. No hair regrowth though...

Do you know what your levels are?

 

[mrchibbs]

@TiltMaster

No one called you a fool.

The point was that you don't seem to have read much of the previous threads on hair loss in this forum.

Did you even watch the excerpt @JKX posted. Danny and Georgi discuss this very idea you mentioned.

And regarding Zix, Ive said it before, I think its a very good topical. It probably does a lot of good things: zinc lowers prolactin (zinc is deficient in AGA), b6 increase dopamine, lowers cortisol, increases conversion of tryptophan to niacin , together they increase progesterone.

So yeah, pretty good stuff.

 

[JDreamer]

i guess we are going to restart the condescending and evidenceless dance of hating on the guy for pointing out fin is the only approach that consistently demonstrates results.

I mean come on man.

in entire "ray peat/danny roddy" sphere have been like 2 guys who got "regrowth". Half of whom had a severe vitamin D deficiency they corrected.

Offering some compelling evidence of why fin doesn't work, or why something else does work, would be productive.

Saying lololo im right you're wrong isn't productive.

As opposed to randomly jumping into the conversation and accusing the forum of being "miles behind on their HL knowledge"?

C'mon bud, thicken up that skin of yours. When they make statements like that and puke up the same old "DHT Bad! Fin good!" dogma it's likely to get push back here.

 

[mrchibbs]

As opposed to randomly jumping into the conversation and accusing the forum of being "miles behind on their HL knowledge"?

C'mon bud, thicken up that skin of yours. When they make statements like that and puke up the same old "DHT Bad! Fin good!" dogma it's likely to get push back here.

Exactly. And I'm not even opposed to discussing finasteride or DHT, in fact I think for instance that @Pablo Cruise brought an interesting point about topical/liposomal finasteride at 0.25% which apparently doesn't affect serum hormones, so who am I to dismiss that if it is effective?

I don't think finasteride is particularly effective. But that's not the point.

All we want is for people not to take a big dump on everything we talk about on this forum just to shift the conversation back to DHT and finasteride. I think we've accumulated enough evidence to deserve a little bit of consideration in that regard.

The discussion Danny and Georgi have from 30:00-45:00 in the video shared by @JKX above is insightful and I think highlights the reductionism of the mainstream understanding of hair loss.

 

[Ignoramus]

Warning: I'm the dumbest member on here; this post is worthless and you should definitely ignore it:

I swear I have regrown my hair and changed my whole face shape just by 'choosing' to do so. I meditate and really choose to believe that I am a certain beautiful person (or a better version of myself). My breathing slows down and my tongue naturally goes to the roof of my mouth. My scalp relaxes and I feel a loving energy spread through me. It's not just about being 'good looking', but being 'good'; embodying pureness and beauty as it means to you. After practising this I started to understand so many things about good looking people: why they are often picky eaters, don't exercise so much, are often smokers, and other ideas that contradict what we are told about health. Things started to make sense to me intuitively about what I should eat, how I should think and who I should be in order to be beautiful, healthy and successful. Vibe is everything, and we are trying to polish the surface instead of healing the core. It sounds crazy, but try being something else and you will become it!

Ok, now back to the sensible discussion...

 

[mrchibbs]

Warning: I'm the dumbest member on here; this post is worthless and you should definitely ignore it:

I swear I have regrown my hair and changed my whole face shape just by 'choosing' to do so. I meditate and really choose to believe that I am a certain beautiful person (or a better version of myself). My breathing slows down and my tongue naturally goes to the roof of my mouth. My scalp relaxes and I feel a loving energy spread through me. It's not just about being 'good looking', but being 'good'; embodying pureness and beauty as it means to you. After practising this I started to understand so many things about good looking people: why they are often picky eaters, don't exercise so much, are often smokers, and other ideas that contradict what we are told about health. Things started to make sense to me intuitively about what I should eat, how I should think and who I should be in order to be beautiful, healthy and successful. Vibe is everything, and we are trying to polish the surface instead of healing the core. It sounds crazy, but try being something else and you will become it!

Ok, now back to the sensible discussion...

As long as you're respectful about sharing, nothing is dumb. I believe your experience. Having a calm and relaxed perspective on life can make all the differences. A series of stressful life experiences is often what triggers hair loss. Ray said a new insight is sometimes capable of completely changing the physiology. Thanks for sharing!

 

[TiltMaster]

Okay my initial post could've been more thoughtful, my apologies. I have not read any threads regarding hair loss on this forum, I've read a lot on other forums though.

I guess we just disagree on the topic and that is fine :)

 

[mrchibbs]

Okay my initial post could've been more thoughtful, my apologies. I have not read any threads regarding hair loss on this forum, I've read a lot on other forums though.

I guess we just disagree on the topic and that is fine :)

That is more than fine! Feel free to present articles and question our narrative, but we should all try to be receptive, that's the whole point. :) You'll find that the threads on this forum are rather different than the common narrative, to say the least.

Doesn't mean we are right about everything, but the idea is to try to look at evidence and come up with links/theories anecdotes and try to keep a quality level of discussion and debate, and stay respectful, which is not a given on hair loss forums lol.

Glad to have you on board. Have you taken finasteride/dutasteride yourself?

 

[DhtAssassin]

Let's see what we got for androgens causing hairloss theory:
1. Multiple valid studies for drugs targeting androgens or AR receptor (RU588, flutamide, clascoterone, finasteride, dutasteride).
2. Many people have confirmed results from these drugs with pictures.
3. Studies confirming that natural androgen receptor antogist levels are for some reason 5 times lower in balding scalp/follicles. (i.e. https://www.researchgate.net/public...uctase_as_Indicators_of_Male-Pattern_Baldness)
4. Studies confirming estrogen has positive effect on pathways which are connected to hair loss. (i.e. Ectodysplasin-A2 induces dickkopf 1 expression in human balding dermal papilla cells overexpressing the ectodysplasin A2 receptor - ScienceDirect - DKK1 as one of the factors which are elevated in balding scalp, and "by coincidence", estrogen inhibits it.)
5. Transplanted hairs from donor area remaining on top of the scalp while old hairs continue to miniaturize.
6. Multiple cases from people transition to female from male while nuking DHT and T levels.


What we have for estrogen causing hair loss theory:
1. Few random studies.
2. T levels going down with age, but MPB is more common as we age.

That's it. No pictures, not a single existing drug. In addition, multiple cases reporting aromatase inhibitors causing hair loss. Alternative theories are always welcome and interesting, but to say that we have alternate ways for fixing hair loss right now is just delusional and unscientific.

 

[mrchibbs]

Once again, @DhtAssassin to lighten up the mood.

You dismiss everything here, exactly why I don't want to engage you anymore. I have references contradicting or at the very least complicating every point you put out here. And we've had several of these exchanges in the past.

The exchange between Danny and Georgi in the video above should be enough to give you pause, but clearly it doesn't. I don't know what else to say.

The problem is not the points you're trying to make, it's your attitude.

 

[TiltMaster]

That is more than fine! Feel free to present articles and question our narrative, but we should all try to be receptive, that's the whole point. :) You'll find that the threads on this forum are rather different than the common narrative, to say the least.

Doesn't mean we are right about everything, but the idea is to try to look at evidence and come up with links/theories anecdotes and try to keep a quality level of discussion and debate, and stay respectful, which is not a given on hair loss forums lol.

Glad to have you on board. Have you taken finasteride/dutasteride yourself?

It is a very different narrative indeed. The reason of me coming across so aggressive is because I would hate it if people were losing hair because of wrong treatment regimes. There are a lot of studies on various supplements/growth factors/vitamins being beneficial for hair, but a lot are animal studies which don't always translate well to humans.

I'm going to get flamed for this but I've been on 0.5mg dutasteride for over 5 years now. Worked wonders for the first 4 years but I'm now back at baseline, probably slightly below. I'm actually looking at adding another topical AA, something like small doses of bicalutamide, fluridil, OH-flutamide (a metabolite of flutamide) or RU. But it's a maze out there. Are you on any hair loss medication?

I agree with the consensus that DHT overall is good for you and that dutasteride is poison but I worry so much about hair loss that it's an easy choice tbh. I initially joined this forum in my search to look for neuroprotective supplements/mood boosters that work in conjunction with dutasteride (and actually found haidut's 5a-DHP through this forum!) but it's interesting to see how differently people approach hair loss here as opposed to hair loss forum.

And yes most hair loss forums are not civil at all, but if you know the right ones then there really are hidden gems regarding hair loss knowledge.

 

[mrchibbs]

@TiltMaster

It's a maze for sure. But there is still a mountain of evidence linking hair loss in a coherent perspective of metabolic decline and general stress. Danny Roddy's articles on his website are examples of this. He provides more than enough evidence for his claims that he needs to be taken seriously.

We're discussing hair loss, freely. Nobody here is selling a hair loss supplement or telling people they should choose X or Y treatment regimes. We're only trying to discuss and understand the relationships and elements driving baldness, and some of the threads we've had on this forum in previous years generated really good and insightful perspectives.

Nobody will flame you for using dutasteride, the culture points us all towards these drugs. I'm not on any of these drugs, but several people on this forum discussing hair have used finasteride/dutasteride in the past. Personally, I used minoxidil for about a year about 5 years ago.

All we're saying is there is so much more to the hair loss story than DHT, and a lot of evidence that at the very least should have us questioning what's happening at a fundamental level, but it doesn't. And of course, this is not a hair loss forum, so we do see everything from the lens of Ray's ideas and a bioenergetic view of life in general. It clearly affects the discourse.

I'm sure there are good hair loss forums out there, I don't doubt it. I've been pretty horrified reading some of the threads through the years though haha

 

[JKX]

All this chat about blocking DHT makes me sad. Blocking a hormone. To those considering it I'd say please don't. If not for yourself then how about for some random guy on Ray Peat Forum...like me. Pretty please? No actually please do it for yourself.

The DHT lowering aspect of fin is just one aspect of a drug that could have multiple actions. For example the candida fighting quality @mrchibbs posted earlier in the thread. Yeast produce several toxic substances such as oxylipins which actively slow metabolism. They can also decrease calcium absorbtion. Interestingly enough progesterone seems to possess this same yeast fighting quality.

A question I continually ask my medical profession friends is "Do you think the human body is stupid? Or do you think it reacts to a given problem in a biochemically intelligent way?" I'm still waiting on a satisfactory answer. I don't think it's coming.

If a hormone is elevated, it's because your body requires it to be elevated, in response to a problem, at the particular time it is elevated.

The reason fin causes problems for so many guys is the above. You cannot simply jump to the end stage of a problem and circumvent dealing with the stages that led to the development of that problem in the first place.

If you believe achieving optimal health is multifactorial, why would the creation of a health problem be any different? The one drug one disease mantra will never prove fruitful as a true and complete solution to any health problem, because it can't. Multiple disease pathways will never be resolved through the use of a single drug.

My opinion: Why would hair loss be any different?

 

[JKX]

Let's see what we got for androgens causing hairloss theory:
1. Multiple valid studies for drugs targeting androgens or AR receptor (RU588, flutamide, clascoterone, finasteride, dutasteride).
2. Many people have confirmed results from these drugs with pictures.
3. Studies confirming that natural androgen receptor antogist levels are for some reason 5 times lower in balding scalp/follicles. (i.e. https://www.researchgate.net/public...uctase_as_Indicators_of_Male-Pattern_Baldness)
4. Studies confirming estrogen has positive effect on pathways which are connected to hair loss. (i.e. Ectodysplasin-A2 induces dickkopf 1 expression in human balding dermal papilla cells overexpressing the ectodysplasin A2 receptor - ScienceDirect - DKK1 as one of the factors which are elevated in balding scalp, and "by coincidence", estrogen inhibits it.)
5. Transplanted hairs from donor area remaining on top of the scalp while old hairs continue to miniaturize.
6. Multiple cases from people transition to female from male while nuking DHT and T levels.


What we have for estrogen causing hair loss theory:
1. Few random studies.
2. T levels going down with age, but MPB is more common as we age.

That's it. No pictures, not a single existing drug. In addition, multiple cases reporting aromatase inhibitors causing hair loss. Alternative theories are always welcome and interesting, but to say that we have alternate ways for fixing hair loss right now is just delusional and unscientific.

I think your username is the most apt on this forum.