DHT Causes Hair Loss, You Sure About That?

[TiltMaster]

All this chat about blocking DHT makes me sad. Blocking a hormone. To those considering it I'd say please don't. If not for yourself then how about for some random guy on Ray Peat Forum...like me. Pretty please? No actually please do it for yourself.

The DHT lowering aspect of fin is just one aspect of a drug that could have multiple actions. For example the candida fighting quality @mrchibbs posted earlier in the thread. Yeast produce several toxic substances such as oxylipins which actively slow metabolism. They can also decrease calcium absorbtion. Interestingly enough progesterone seems to possess this same yeast fighting quality.

A question I continually ask my medical profession friends is "Do you think the human body is stupid? Or do you think it reacts to a given problem in a biochemically intelligent way?" I'm still waiting on a satisfactory answer. I don't think it's coming.

If a hormone is elevated, it's because your body requires it to be elevated, in response to a problem, at the particular time it is elevated.

The reason fin causes problems for so many guys is the above. You cannot simply jump to the end stage of a problem and circumvent dealing with the stages that led to the development of that problem in the first place.

If you believe achieving optimal health is multifactorial, why would the creation of a health problem be any different? The one drug one disease mantra will never prove fruitful as a true and complete solution to any health problem, because it can't. Multiple disease pathways will never be resolved through the use of a single drug.

My opinion: Why would hair loss be any different?

The general consensus already is that an approach of multiple angles is the way to go regarding hair loss, but the science is simply not there yet. There are already quite a bunch of theories that all tackle a different aspect (prostaglandin theory, sonic hedgehog pathway, activation of Wnt signalling, etc) but we're so incredibly in the dark regarding almost everything (compound to use, dosage, frequency, etc). Some pathways we can tackle using existing compounds, but most are expensive (they're research chemicals) and for some pathways there are just no viable compounds yet.

Also, once we really get into the pathways that promote hair growth we are probably going to worry about cancer as a possible side effect as well.

But imo, most people trying to tackle aggressive hair loss aren't just inhibiting DHT. Even if you just use minoxidil and finasteride, you are already approaching hair loss from multiple angles.

Btw are you saying that male pattern baldness is a disease? Because I have never seen it like that.

 

[JKX]

The general consensus already is that an approach of multiple angles is the way to go regarding hair loss, but the science is simply not there yet. There are already quite a bunch of theories that all tackle a different aspect (prostaglandin theory, sonic hedgehog pathway, activation of Wnt signalling, etc) but we're so incredibly in the dark regarding almost everything (compound to use, dosage, frequency, etc). Some pathways we can tackle using existing compounds, but most are expensive (they're research chemicals) and for some pathways there are just no viable compounds yet.

Also, once we really get into the pathways that promote hair growth we are probably going to worry about cancer as a possible side effect as well.

But imo, most people trying to tackle aggressive hair loss aren't just inhibiting DHT. Even if you just use minoxidil and finasteride, you are already approaching hair loss from multiple angles.

Btw are you saying that male pattern baldness is a disease? Because I have never seen it like that.

Those are fair points.

I'm not sure I'd see it as a disease, perhaps more of a symptom of disease with the disease being metabolic decline.

Mind you, I just searched for the definition of disease and the search came up with this:

"a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury."

 

[TiltMaster]

Those are fair points.

I'm not sure I'd see it as a disease, perhaps more of a symptom of disease with the disease being metabolic decline.

Mind you, I just searched for the definition of disease and the search came up with this:

"a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury."

I don't have any evidence for this but it does seem like men are balding earlier nowadays compared to, say, 80 years ago. That could have something to do with diet, air quality, level of fitness, or whatever. Perhaps metabolic decline is more prevalent these days.

But here's the main thing for me. Even if the root cause was metabolic, there is not enough evidence for me that doing everything perfect regarding diet/exercise/supplements is going to help me maintain or regrow hair. There are studies pointing towards that direction but there are not enough people documenting good results. I really care about keeping my hair so I rather use AA's/5ARI's. Even though I know that androgens are not the root cause of hair loss, AA's/5ARI's have such a good track record that it makes them by far the safest bet as far as efficacy goes.

Btw if mpb would come from metabolic problems, how would the aspect of it being hereditary fit in?

 

[rr1]

I don't have any evidence for this but it does seem like men are balding earlier nowadays compared to, say, 80 years ago. That could have something to do with diet, air quality, level of fitness, or whatever. Perhaps metabolic decline is more prevalent these days.

But here's the main thing for me. Even if the root cause was metabolic, there is not enough evidence for me that doing everything perfect regarding diet/exercise/supplements is going to help me maintain or regrow hair. There are studies pointing towards that direction but there are not enough people documenting good results. I really care about keeping my hair so I rather use AA's/5ARI's. Even though I know that androgens are not the root cause of hair loss, AA's/5ARI's have such a good track record that it makes them by far the safest bet as far as efficacy goes.

Btw if mpb would come from metabolic problems, how would the aspect of it being hereditary fit in?

My understanding is that it isn't just in our genes that we will get mpb or not like most people believe. I think it has to do with the health of our parents and their parents before them. Things like was there any mineral deficiencies across generations, was there majorly stressful events that those people went through, and just the increase in bad environment (pollution/emf's) that has got worse and worse over time.

Just editing this with a post from mrchibbs that I just found:
"The explanation is probably the transgenerational effects of successive generations being exposed to more and more environmental stressors in the form of things like radiation in the 50s and 60s, health propaganda to move away from animal product consumption and towards vegetable oils in the 70s, environmental estrogens, light-deficient lifestyles and environment, contaminated food supply, birth control pills, SSRIs and GMOs in the 1990s, EMFs in the 00s and 10s, and more and more meaningless life choices. To me it's clear that the progressive decline in metabolic rate over the last century is caused by this accumulation of insults, and each successive generation gets less and less able to deal with it."

Ask yourself, do you really think its intended that some people should lose their hair? That someone in 100% perfect health should have all of their hair fall out because they have a gene that makes them more sensitive to some hormone? How does that not just sound ridiculous from the start?

 

[DhtAssassin]

My understanding is that it isn't just in our genes that we will get mpb or not like most people believe. I think it has to do with the health of our parents and their parents before them. Things like was there any mineral deficiencies across generations, was there majorly stressful events that those people went through, and just the increase in bad environment (pollution/emf's) that has got worse and worse over time.

Just editing this with a post from mrchibbs that I just found:
"The explanation is probably the transgenerational effects of successive generations being exposed to more and more environmental stressors in the form of things like radiation in the 50s and 60s, health propaganda to move away from animal product consumption and towards vegetable oils in the 70s, environmental estrogens, light-deficient lifestyles and environment, contaminated food supply, birth control pills, SSRIs and GMOs in the 1990s, EMFs in the 00s and 10s, and more and more meaningless life choices. To me it's clear that the progressive decline in metabolic rate over the last century is caused by this accumulation of insults, and each successive generation gets less and less able to deal with it."

Ask yourself, do you really think its intended that some people should lose their hair? That someone in 100% perfect health should have all of their hair fall out because they have a gene that makes them more sensitive to some hormone? How does that not just sound ridiculous from the start?

So what kind of magical power binds someone to his stress affected parents if it's not genes?Quantum mechanics? I just don't get why it's so hard to admit that it's genes. What else describes how your body works, how many T and estrogen do you produce, how tall you are and so on. It's genetics first and then comes the environment factor. Or are you trolling? That would explain it.

 

[JKX]

So what kind of magical power binds someone to his stress affected parents if it's not genes?Quantum mechanics? I just don't get why it's so hard to admit that it's genes. What else describes how your body works, how many T and estrogen do you produce, how tall you are and so on. It's genetics first and then comes the environment factor. Or are you trolling? That would explain it.

Genes first, environment second? Why? Why not environment first, genes second?

Based on your argument all the things discussed on this forum are secondary to genetics. Which would lead me to the question what interested you in Ray's work on metabolism? And why continually lurk in the hair related threads on this forum just to bash on those who present a different opinion to your own?

Why do you believe hormone production is governed by genetics? Yet hormone production can vary considerably in response to numerous different stressors.

If you accept genetic expression changes in direct proportion to metabolic factors then I would argue that genes are not the governing factor, the preceding metabolic factors are, because they exert direct influence over the way genes express themsleves.

 

[JKX]

I don't have any evidence for this but it does seem like men are balding earlier nowadays compared to, say, 80 years ago. That could have something to do with diet, air quality, level of fitness, or whatever. Perhaps metabolic decline is more prevalent these days.

But here's the main thing for me. Even if the root cause was metabolic, there is not enough evidence for me that doing everything perfect regarding diet/exercise/supplements is going to help me maintain or regrow hair. There are studies pointing towards that direction but there are not enough people documenting good results. I really care about keeping my hair so I rather use AA's/5ARI's. Even though I know that androgens are not the root cause of hair loss, AA's/5ARI's have such a good track record that it makes them by far the safest bet as far as efficacy goes.

Btw if mpb would come from metabolic problems, how would the aspect of it being hereditary fit in?

Do you inheretic genetic traits from your parents. Sure. But I think you equally inherit a level of health directly proportional to the health of both parents at the time of conception and the health of your mother during the period of gestation.

 

[Zigzag]

Do you inheretic genetic traits from your parents. Sure. But I think you equally inherit a level of health directly proportional to the health of both parents at the time of conception and the health of your mother during the period of gestation.

Through what mechanism do you inherit that "level of health"?

 

[JKX]

Things as simple as pregnenolone or progesterone have been demonstrated to have a significant effect on sperm quality, why wouldnt the 'health' of a sperm or egg exert an effect on the resulting offspring? If something like a mother smoking or drinking excessive amounts of alcohol can exert an effect of offsping then surely diet and nutrient status of the mother also would?

I sometimes get the feeling some of the users on the forum haven't bothered to read Ray's articles. It's a logical place to start. You can then make up your own mind as to whether you agree or not.

 

[Waynish]

Sebum is clearly accumulating in the scalp during hair loss... I've seen no exceptions really in terms of MPB. Too much theory & not enough practice in these discussions.

 

[Zigzag]

Sebum is clearly accumulating in the scalp during hair loss... I've seen no exceptions really in terms of MPB. Too much theory & not enough practice in these discussions.

I have that problem, not only on scalp but also in T zone of my face. I guess low fat, high carb dieting that I've been doing for a couple of months so far was not the best choice.(apparently sebum goes up when not eating enough fat). Ironically the best hair and skin quality I had was on keto (but it sucked d and I had to quit).

 

[jonnytrigger]

Is there something new here? Look, based on my experience Fin by itself can do amazing things but I find at younger ages, ie, less than 40-45 yrs of age. Much is said of the addition of Minoxidil. I think RU is bull. I believe getting to 60 yrs of age hormonal changes make Fin pretty much useless. Derminator? Well try it but I am not a believer in micro needling but I do believe laser helmuts work....this topic here is a repeat of everything we know. Taurine works? Good.

what do you know, most on this forum seems to have very little knowledge about research and human physiology. little knowledge is dangerous as I've said before. you need to know more than x is associated with y, i.e the strength of the relation ship, validity and reliability etc. don't just bash out a few sentences from pubmed thinking you know everything.

 

[Waynish]

I have that problem, not only on scalp but also in T zone of my face. I guess low fat, high carb dieting that I've been doing for a couple of months so far was not the best choice.(apparently sebum goes up when not eating enough fat). Ironically the best hair and skin quality I had was on keto (but it sucked d and I had to quit).

Yep, not because of ketones so much as because of metabolic deficiencies which cause sebum from metabolic waste. Also masturbation. Taoists have known this for hundreds of years, but I probably couldn't convince a "scientist" of it at gun point ("no no you don't understand... Fauci...").

 

[Gerard1989]

I appreciate that.

By the way I have been reading your blog regarding hair and I was reminded of that 1960 study you mentioned regarding topical testosterone

Stimulation of Hair Growth by Topical Application of Androgens

I believe its this one^ maybe I'm wrong.

I would really like to hear your thoughts on this:
Failure of Topical Testosterone in Male-Pattern Alopecia



Also since you mentioned zix earlier have you heard about the guys who have been using it in conjunction with micro needling. I have only seen one success story but it was a pretty remarkable recovery on HLT. I'll link it if you are interested

I would like to try this. I have testosterone powder but I am unsure about how to go about preparing a topical testosterone solution. Can anyone advise me on this matter? Will it do to just dissolve an amount of the powder in olive oil? Is heating required? What ratio of powder would I need to dissolve in say 100ml of oil?

 

[mrchibbs]

I would like to try this. I have testosterone powder but I am unsure about how to go about preparing a topical testosterone solution. Can anyone advise me on this matter? Will it do to just dissolve an amount of the powder in olive oil? Is heating required? What ratio of powder would I need to dissolve in say 100ml of oil?

I would think an alcohol based-solution is the best approach. It will help dissolve and improves absorption.

For example, using a 60ml (2oz) glass bottle:

- Add 5-10ml of ethanol (say 95% or highest you can find) and your testosterone powder. I'm not sure about the amount you'd need to get a 1% solution like in the study. You could have it higher like maybe 5%.
- By shaking the ethanol and testosterone, it will combine and dissolve.
- You can then fill the rest of the 60ml glass bottle with either water or MCT oil.

Again, not sure about the gram amount needed here, maybe someone else will chime in.

 

[Gerard1989]

Thank you very much. I presume what you are referring to is denatured Ethanol since the website I’m looking at doesn’t cite any percentages for its ‘pure’ ethanol product. Chemicals

 

[Gerard1989]

I would think an alcohol based-solution is the best approach. It will help dissolve and improves absorption.

For example, using a 60ml (2oz) glass bottle:

- Add 5-10ml of ethanol (say 95% or highest you can find) and your testosterone powder. I'm not sure about the amount you'd need to get a 1% solution like in the study. You could have it higher like maybe 5%.
- By shaking the ethanol and testosterone, it will combine and dissolve.
- You can then fill the rest of the 60ml glass bottle with either water or MCT oil.

Again, not sure about the gram amount needed here, maybe someone else will chime in.

I looked on Google and it says a 5% solution contains 50mg per ml. If the ethanol and water amount to say 50 ml, I would need 2500mg correct? Also, will using mct oil instead of water allow for the solution to be spread over a larger surface area before it evaporates? I’m asking because a large part of my scalp is balding. :-(

 

[mrchibbs]

I looked on Google and it says a 5% solution contains 50mg per ml. If the ethanol and water amount to say 50 ml, I would need 2500mg correct? Also, will using mct oil instead of water allow for the solution to be spread over a larger surface area before it evaporates? I’m asking because a large part of my scalp is balding. :-(

Yeah 2.5 g (2500mg) sounds right based on your info.

You're going to have to experiment between MCT and water and see which one you prefer. With the alcohol base it should absorb quite well. The important is to find something consistent that you're comfortable with because as you can see in the study, they applied the solution daily for like 9 months before seeing some results. So it's a long term thing.

 

[Gerard1989]

Ok. Thanks again.

 

[Gerard1989]

I would think an alcohol based-solution is the best approach. It will help dissolve and improves absorption.

For example, using a 60ml (2oz) glass bottle:

- Add 5-10ml of ethanol (say 95% or highest you can find) and your testosterone powder. I'm not sure about the amount you'd need to get a 1% solution like in the study. You could have it higher like maybe 5%.
- By shaking the ethanol and testosterone, it will combine and dissolve.
- You can then fill the rest of the 60ml glass bottle with either water or MCT oil.

Again, not sure about the gram amount needed here, maybe someone else will chime in.

Hi. This is just an update. I did as you said . I dissolved 2500mg of powder in 10ml of ethanol. This went well. However, when I added water to the alcohol solution, the powder reappeared. And because it was a fair amount of powder, it started to overflow. I think that the reason for why this happened is that the powder is not terribly soluble in water. In the end, I did it over and dissolved 300mg of powder in 30 ml of ethanol instead. This made for a 1% solution (10mg/ml). Yesterday, I applied it to my scalp for the first time. A dropper full of the solution (about 1ml) is plenty to spread over the area of my scalp before it evaporates. I’ll report here with any results I might get in the near future. Wish me luck.