DHEA + Progesterone == Pro-anabolic, Testosterone-promoting?

[baccheion]

Well the body's use of minerals over their function for Bone plus hundreds of enzymatic functions and even thermal regulations. Etc. ... I cannot give an exact number.

Assuming a 178cm (5'10) 72kg (160lb) young man of 25 with overall good health and a decent BF % (12-15%) who ingests 2.400 calories a day.

He gets per day average:
3,000 mg Potassium
900 mg Calcium
300 mg Magnesium
25 mg zinc
4 mg copper



If he were to start, say, 20mg progesterone plus 4mg DHEA, I think the increase in potassium retention (in the cell) by progesterone will not demand much of an increase on that most basic mineral, although it has to go up as calories go up.

Increased intracellular potassium accelerates magnesium metabolism not to mention that a even a slight Thyroid improvement does, calcium will be more mobilized to bones both by progesterone's cortisol-counter effect and improved thyroid... Leaving some organs in need of higher intake (including testicles)

Zinc is essential to the 3ß-hsd enzyme and if gonadal function will improve you need more zinc (and vitamin A) thus also D... It's a chain that runs like a domino were one piece missing too long can wreak havoc.

But our bodies are intelligent enough to increase appetite, cravings, even guide the circadian rhythm in a direction were certain nutrients are better utilized.

Upon increasing his caloric intake from 2.400 to 3.200 calories....

4,000 mg Potassium
1,500 mg Calcium
600 mg Magnesium
50 mg zinc
8 mg copper.


Im no godly authority that is what just sounds coherent to me if you asked me for an example, if anything these bio-mechanics are better questions for members like Tyw (I recommend everyone looks him up) and co.

BTW, I'm surprised some of you are doing well on doses over 100mg/day, I did go up to 45mg but I was too sedated a year ago... Craving naps too often lol.... But I didn't have the DHEA in there so perhaps I was lacking that exciting counter force, although the very strong androgen DHT and Androsterone are also Gaba-ergic so there must he more to it.

The 28mg don't sedate me, just sleep like a baby 9 hours through the night. Im off the progesterone until tomorrow because of that experiment I promised I would make on that other thread, today is my day 17 no-progesterone or dhea and I'm really missing the enhanced workout recovery but, other than that, - I can attest progesterone with moderate ratio DHEA do not shut down the HPTA axis in any way and actually protects leydig cells and the adrenals from estrogenic damage as my libido, hair, erection quality, mental function and mood and secondary androgenic characteristics are intact upon stopping them as they were while using them.

(Well... Something did change over a year of Progesterone and Peating....)

My hair shedding stopped and I bulked up almost 20lbs. My body has re-regularized anxiety levels that were insane before but then again progesterone helped me come off benzoes so that might be it.

It definitely heals damage the body has accumulated over time, even rejuvenates.... No wonder women that had more kids (more progesterone ) tend to live longer even. Think about it.

So nothing but benefits in my case as well.

Is there a difference between more thyroid hormone + vitamin A + (sun)light to convert more cholesterol to pregnenolone and taking progesterone directly? What about taking just pregnenolone, as it is primarily converted to progesterone once others are saturated?

Maybe I should've just asked my example. I am 6'0.5", 155-160 lbs, 6.5" wrists, and 34 years old. What'd you recommend to maintain and when bulking? Genetic testing and ancestry suggests lower fat. ApoE 4/3. G6PD deficiency likely.

 

[SonOfEurope]

Is there a difference between more thyroid hormone + vitamin A + (sun)light to convert more cholesterol to pregnenolone and taking progesterone directly? What about taking just pregnenolone, as it is primarily converted to progesterone once others are saturated?

Maybe I should've just asked my example. I am 6'0.5", 155-160 lbs, 6.5" wrists, and 34 years old. What'd you recommend to maintain and when bulking? Genetic testing and ancestry suggests lower fat. ApoE 4/3. G6PD deficiency likely.

Hi baccheion,

Of course they are in a way the same thing, pretty much any male who even on occasion works out will tell you they have noticed faster rate of mass increase during the Summer when thyroid is most optimal and so is steroidogenesis. Light and thyroid promote progesterone and testosterone and tissue regeneration. Hyperthyroid men rarely suffer from baldness or Prostate cancer despite enhanced 5 Alpha reductasa activity and this I would attribute to their better hormonal profile of saturated steroids and lower systemic estrogen load, but the body tries to maintain homeostasis and even if you ate 24 eggs for all that cholesterol and spend a summer out in the sun working out, eating well, your hormones would improve within a natural range that is regulated by a hundred factors as would your gains.

There is a difference of course it being that taking 20+mg of progesterone and 5+mg of DHEA is already slightly supraphysiolgical and supplementing thyroid is for the purpose of healing it, it's natural optimal function is ultimate goal, but eating fish heads and chicken necks is never a bad idea as protection from the inevitable bombardment of Plastic residues, pesticides and estrogen mimics of the modern world - besides all traditional societies did it.

As for your stats... You sound like the tall ecto-mesomorph type with longer limbs, if fact you're the same height as a very close friend of mine, moderately tall (184cm) but slightly underweight, for a man your height the 180 - 190lbs range is more expected - wrists are not always the best indicator and you have the potential to still maximize bone size so DW. My wrists were around 6,25 until two years ago at 26 - but after two years of p4 and dhea plus training and following Peat protocols they are 7.15 roughly now since I had an androgenic type growth spurt. I'm turning 29. How many calories (roughly) do ingest daily?

At 34 you are still young enough to prevent most of the damages of the ageing process that start around 40, the 30's are men's prime years.

If you do indeed have that genetic G6PD defiency, that I only know some basic things about then I will ask you - have you had a story of hypertension? Kidney issues? How do you tolerate aspirin in a moderate dose of 80 or 160mg a day? - Aldosterone tends to be elevated and as result progesterone slightly lower than normal in this cases (a higher downstream hormone will mean less of its precursor - Ray Peat himself. )

DHEA itself will increase androgens and androgen increase Red blood cell production, progesterone improves the transport of oxygen in the blood.

Someone asked me the same question about Pregnenolone directly vs progesterone... Well... Your progesterone pool will go up as will DHEA and the androgens (and to some minimal extent the estrogen at the end of the cascade but this is nothing to worry about as Pregnenolone is itself an aromatase inhibitor (not as strong as progesterone ) and everything will lean towards the androgenic scale just ask Haidut :))

You will obviously reap anabolic benefits from Pregnenolone alone since you'll increase the pool of all other hormones somewhat but it's not quite the same as taking Progesterone plus Dhea directly because Pregnenolone has its own physiological and neurological functions , it Is, on its own, a negative modulator of Gaba but this is in equilibrium to its conversion to progesterone which will act positively on it - it's stronger NMDA effects are more pronounced and overall it's more exitatory than progesterone while some will divert into Pregnenolone-S which has different roles in the receptors..

Even if you take 100mg of Pregnenolone a day the body will do the best it can to maintain homeostasis by metabolizing faster and keeping a more steady conversion that will more evenly go down into the downstream hormones by activations regulated by the Pregnenolone itself - although you will increase Progesterone and Androgens - it won't be quite the same or we would all be supplementing Cholesterol as its just one step higher but the same mechanism would keep the hormonal diversions in balance.

To kill all doubt, you might to try all 3 in reasonable proportion.

Haidut 's Pansterone is a exact balance of Pregnenolone and DHEA.

Pansterone:

Per drop: 1mg DHEA + 1mg Pregnenolone.

You could add this to a low dose of progesterone in the 10mg a day range. Ex.

20 mg Progesterone oil.
4mg Pregnenolone
4mg DHEA

Seems like the best option to kill all doubt and end the neurosis, I have considered buying some pansterone and mixing half the bottle into my Progestene, per 2 drops I'd get roughly 2mg progesterone + 1mg DHEA and 1 of Pregnenolone... 10 drops a day and I'd be close to where I am now....

In short I advice you order Pansterone 4 drops a day plus 10mg progesterone to start, don't ask me where I get these numbers, it's my advice. You would get:

10 mg progesterone
4mg Pregnenolone
4mg DHEA.

From there, I advice 50% increments every 3 months until you are satisfied with the anabolic gains and androgenicity, after a year you could be at.

45 mg progesterone
18 mg Pregnenolone
18 mg DHEA

The most important thing is to stay as PUFA depleted as possible and keep the thyroid in good function while measuring macros and calories, focusing on compound movements, in my case practically all the mass I've gained has been from only 3 exercises:

Deadlift (with a weight that can hold only for 4-5 seconds - currently 335lbs)

Close grip benchpress (with the arms straight therefore using the back muscles for forward propulsion as meant to be - 11/12 repetitions ATM with 203lbs )

Dumbbell squats at 20/22 reps, each dumbbell 60lbs (I lack a rack for barbell squat sadly ).

Not that strong I know, but I'm gradually going up, I'm sure I'll be 20% higher by summer (and be doing proper squats xD).

I eat 5 times a day, always some protein in there and my largest meal is the 4th, at 5pm - with 100g carbs as rice, 45 or 50 grams protein as lean pork or beef with an egg followed by gelatin jelly and some fat as a teaspoon of ghee on the rice plus the inevitable fat of the yolk.

I take magnesium gycinate 200mg and supplement eggshell powder

 

[baccheion]

Hi baccheion,

Of course they are in a way the same thing, pretty much any male who even on occasion works out will tell you they have noticed faster rate of mass increase during the Summer when thyroid is most optimal and so is steroidogenesis. Light and thyroid promote progesterone and testosterone and tissue regeneration. Hyperthyroid men rarely suffer from baldness or Prostate cancer despite enhanced 5 Alpha reductasa activity and this I would attribute to their better hormonal profile of saturated steroids and lower systemic estrogen load, but the body tries to maintain homeostasis and even if you ate 24 eggs for all that cholesterol and spend a summer out in the sun working out, eating well, your hormones would improve within a natural range that is regulated by a hundred factors as would your gains.

There is a difference of course it being that taking 20+mg of progesterone and 5+mg of DHEA is already slightly supraphysiolgical and supplementing thyroid is for the purpose of healing it, it's natural optimal function is ultimate goal, but eating fish heads and chicken necks is never a bad idea as protection from the inevitable bombardment of Plastic residues, pesticides and estrogen mimics of the modern world - besides all traditional societies did it.

As for your stats... You sound like the tall ecto-mesomorph type with longer limbs, if fact you're the same height as a very close friend of mine, moderately tall (184cm) but slightly underweight, for a man your height the 180 - 190lbs range is more expected - wrists are not always the best indicator and you have the potential to still maximize bone size so DW. My wrists were around 6,25 until two years ago at 26 - but after two years of p4 and dhea plus training and following Peat protocols they are 7.15 roughly now since I had an androgenic type growth spurt. I'm turning 29. How many calories (roughly) do ingest daily?

At 34 you are still young enough to prevent most of the damages of the ageing process that start around 40, the 30's are men's prime years.

If you do indeed have that genetic G6PD defiency, that I only know some basic things about then I will ask you - have you had a story of hypertension? Kidney issues? How do you tolerate aspirin in a moderate dose of 80 or 160mg a day? - Aldosterone tends to be elevated and as result progesterone slightly lower than normal in this cases (a higher downstream hormone will mean less of its precursor - Ray Peat himself. )

DHEA itself will increase androgens and androgen increase Red blood cell production, progesterone improves the transport of oxygen in the blood.

Someone asked me the same question about Pregnenolone directly vs progesterone... Well... Your progesterone pool will go up as will DHEA and the androgens (and to some minimal extent the estrogen at the end of the cascade but this is nothing to worry about as Pregnenolone is itself an aromatase inhibitor (not as strong as progesterone ) and everything will lean towards the androgenic scale just ask Haidut :))

You will obviously reap anabolic benefits from Pregnenolone alone since you'll increase the pool of all other hormones somewhat but it's not quite the same as taking Progesterone plus Dhea directly because Pregnenolone has its own physiological and neurological functions , it Is, on its own, a negative modulator of Gaba but this is in equilibrium to its conversion to progesterone which will act positively on it - it's stronger NMDA effects are more pronounced and overall it's more exitatory than progesterone while some will divert into Pregnenolone-S which has different roles in the receptors..

Even if you take 100mg of Pregnenolone a day the body will do the best it can to maintain homeostasis by metabolizing faster and keeping a more steady conversion that will more evenly go down into the downstream hormones by activations regulated by the Pregnenolone itself - although you will increase Progesterone and Androgens - it won't be quite the same or we would all be supplementing Cholesterol as its just one step higher but the same mechanism would keep the hormonal diversions in balance.

To kill all doubt, you might to try all 3 in reasonable proportion.

Haidut 's Pansterone is a exact balance of Pregnenolone and DHEA.

Pansterone:

Per drop: 1mg DHEA + 1mg Pregnenolone.

You could add this to a low dose of progesterone in the 10mg a day range. Ex.

20 mg Progesterone oil.
4mg Pregnenolone
4mg DHEA

Seems like the best option to kill all doubt and end the neurosis, I have considered buying some pansterone and mixing half the bottle into my Progestene, per 2 drops I'd get roughly 2mg progesterone + 1mg DHEA and 1 of Pregnenolone... 10 drops a day and I'd be close to where I am now....

In short I advice you order Pansterone 4 drops a day plus 10mg progesterone to start, don't ask me where I get these numbers, it's my advice. You would get:

10 mg progesterone
4mg Pregnenolone
4mg DHEA.

From there, I advice 50% increments every 3 months until you are satisfied with the anabolic gains and androgenicity, after a year you could be at.

45 mg progesterone
18 mg Pregnenolone
18 mg DHEA

The most important thing is to stay as PUFA depleted as possible and keep the thyroid in good function while measuring macros and calories, focusing on compound movements, in my case practically all the mass I've gained has been from only 3 exercises:

Deadlift (with a weight that can hold only for 4-5 seconds - currently 335lbs)

Close grip benchpress (with the arms straight therefore using the back muscles for forward propulsion as meant to be - 11/12 repetitions ATM with 203lbs )

Dumbbell squats at 20/22 reps, each dumbbell 60lbs (I lack a rack for barbell squat sadly ).

Not that strong I know, but I'm gradually going up, I'm sure I'll be 20% higher by summer (and be doing proper squats xD).

I eat 5 times a day, always some protein in there and my largest meal is the 4th, at 5pm - with 100g carbs as rice, 45 or 50 grams protein as lean pork or beef with an egg followed by gelatin jelly and some fat as a teaspoon of ghee on the rice plus the inevitable fat of the yolk.

I take magnesium gycinate 200mg and supplement eggshell powder

I haven't really had any problems with hypertension and I've never tried aspirin. What number of calories would you recommend now? How much of a surplus? How much by 180 lbs?

I have no problem going directly to progesterone and DHEA. I was just wondering if it mattered. How much P4 and DHEA if just them alone?

I'm considering the TCA300 approach now. 6 liters of 1% milk, salt, magnesium, 1 ounce liver, and maybe some etceteras for extra calories. I am not really one with an appetite for many calories. I'd likely only be able to handle if mostly liquid.

 

[SonOfEurope]

I haven't really had any problems with hypertension and I've never tried aspirin. What number of calories would you recommend now? How much of a surplus? How much by 180 lbs?

I have no problem going directly to progesterone and DHEA. I was just wondering if it mattered. How much P4 and DHEA if just them alone?

I'm considering the TCA300 approach now. 6 liters of 1% milk, salt, magnesium, 1 ounce liver, and maybe some etceteras for extra calories. I am not really one with an appetite for many calories. I'd likely only be able to handle if mostly liquid.

It would help me to know what you are eating now if you went into chronometer.

184cm, 6cm taller than me yet 20lbs lighter, you need at least 3.000 sharp ATM and may need to go up to 3,500 - 3,700 over one year as you gain weight to a more serious 185lb.

Sounds good, lot of non-exitatory protein, calcium, b vitamins milk is amazing and yes, 1% is good because otherwise in proportion to muscle you're gonna gain excess fat. Liver will complement the fat solubles and I would advice a hard-boiled egg per day to balance the liver, Do you like gelatinous cuts like feet or tail? What I do with necks, feet and oxtail is I boil it in a soup of greens and then drink the juice as well after skimming off some the poofah .

The necks are amazing, glycine + thyroid is extremely thermogenic plus relaxing.

Chocolate if it's not in emulsified ***t and soy lecithin, do you drink tea or coffee?

What lifting moves will you be focused on? - remember, target the back muscles (trapezoid, latssimus Dorsi, shoulders (safety) and triceps and glutes) - they are the real muscles of strength, and ironically the ones that most efficiently react to an anabolic like progesterone, they must have the highest concentration of gluco-corticoid mineralocorticoid receptors, hence they are the muscles that are naturally larger in men, from testosterone opposing cortisol.

You may try a baby aspirin dissolved in warm water daily, see how it goes after a week or two. I take as much as 975mg after a stressful workday to kill inflammation and shift respiration towards higher CO2 but I do not have that G6PD deficiency so I DO NOT advice that to you.

K2 would be a good idea.

Leg muscles will develop but not as much in comparison.

I suggest you start 20mg p4 + 4mg DHEA, divided morning and evening.

GET PLENTY OF SLEEP - 9 hours per night.

 

[baccheion]

It would help me to know what you are eating now if you went into chronometer.

184cm, 6cm taller than me yet 20lbs lighter, you need at least 3.000 sharp ATM and may need to go up to 3,500 - 3,700 over one year as you gain weight to a more serious 185lb.

Sounds good, lot of non-exitatory protein, calcium, b vitamins milk is amazing and yes, 1% is good because otherwise in proportion to muscle you're gonna gain excess fat. Liver will complement the fat solubles and I would advice a hard-boiled egg per day to balance the liver, Do you like gelatinous cuts like feet or tail? What I do with necks, feet and oxtail is I boil it in a soup of greens and then drink the juice as well after skimming off some the poofah .

The necks are amazing, glycine + thyroid is extremely thermogenic plus relaxing.

Chocolate if it's not in emulsified ***t and soy lecithin, do you drink tea or coffee?

What lifting moves will you be focused on? - remember, target the back muscles (trapezoid, latssimus Dorsi, shoulders (safety) and triceps and glutes) - they are the real muscles of strength, and ironically the ones that most efficiently react to an anabolic like progesterone, they must have the highest concentration of gluco-corticoid mineralocorticoid receptors, hence they are the muscles that are naturally larger in men, from testosterone opposing cortisol.

You may try a baby aspirin dissolved in warm water daily, see how it goes after a week or two. I take as much as 975mg after a stressful workday to kill inflammation and shift respiration towards higher CO2 but I do not have that G6PD deficiency so I DO NOT advice that to you.

K2 would be a good idea.

Leg muscles will develop but not as much in comparison.

I suggest you start 20mg p4 + 4mg DHEA, divided morning and evening.

GET PLENTY OF SLEEP - 9 hours per night.

I tended to have a preference for gelatinous portions when younger. Indifferent now. I also atypically always liked liver.

Is 3,000 still recommended if I remain sedentary? Any gym activity would be focused on proportioned growth.

For example, 10 mg + 2 mg at 8 am (first meal) and 8 pm (last meal)? Does the dose change with topical versus oral administration? Is one preferred in this case?

 

[SonOfEurope]

I tended to have a preference for gelatinous portions when younger. Indifferent now. I also atypically always liked liver.

Is 3,000 still recommended if I remain sedentary? Any gym activity would be focused on proportioned growth.

For example, 10 mg + 2 mg at 8 am (first meal) and 8 pm (last meal)? Does the dose change with topical versus oral administration? Is one preferred in this case?

Yep, being almost 6'1 and using an anabolic healing substance plus DHEA I think you should try to at least come close to 3000, at least 2.800 if you won't actively work out.

Still, try to have some gelatin as part of your diet, a soft boiled egg and maybe if you crave and have access to ripe fruit for more minerals and b-vitamins? That much milk will already give you almost everything anyway.

I also "atypically" love liver... But I like it probably less cooked than most people. Just a lil stir fry in a spoon of butter and that's it.

One time I ate almost 2kg of liver, I was very energetic afterwards... Too much copper at once.

Yes, I would advice you start oral, because when it comes to topical I've had progesterone creams that absorb in 10 minutes while others just sat there (wtf).

Good timing, and remember the good sleep part

 

[MitchMitchell]

I think it’s well known that most (all?) AAS are massively anti catabolic rather than potently anabolic so something like Dhea is an interesting supplement to play with.

Me personally I pop 25mg pre bed (oral absorption is low anyway) and it seems to knock me down better than many other things I’ve tried.

 

[MitchMitchell]

@SonOfEurope 178cm or 5’10 and 175-180lbs is overweight so careful here. Aim for recomp / shed 5-10lbs of fat.

@baccheion 3000 on a bulk will get you to 180-190lbs for sure. More would be grossly overweight territory at 6ft and isn’t healthy at all.

 

[baccheion]

@SonOfEurope 178cm or 5’10 and 175-180lbs is overweight so careful here. Aim for recomp / shed 5-10lbs of fat.

@baccheion 3000 on a bulk will get you to 180-190lbs for sure. More would be grossly overweight territory at 6ft and isn’t healthy at all.

I was also asking about when sedentary at 155-160 lbs. What body fat are you assuming with 180-190 lbs and 6'0.5"? How much fat at 3000? What about the sedentary 155-160 lbs case?

 

[Spartan300]

Does anyone have a view of any differences between topical (creams) & oral (powder) progesterone?

If anyone is using prog powder, how are you measuring/dosing? Thanks

 

[MitchMitchell]

I was also asking about when sedentary at 155-160 lbs. What body fat are you assuming with 180-190 lbs and 6'0.5"? How much fat at 3000? What about the sedentary 155-160 lbs case?

I mean I’m still hoping that you’d hit the gym. You wanna gain muscle not fat. Otherwise just keep it where you’re at. if sedentary and 155 then 2500 is good.

I’m assuming 15% bodyfat always which is what’s healthiest imo. So someone who’s 6ft can get to a nice 185 eating 3000. Maybe 3500 if training vvvv hard but that’s too much stress imo.

I don’t shoot for numbers in grams. Keep protein around 25% macros and then play with Fats/Sugars however you like it.

 

[Yody]

(Oral absorption is low anyway)

Where did you hear that? I've read around here that oral absorption is the highest, and that Ray has said that oral is closer to ~20% -- I feel the most effects from cortinon+ orally, topical seems to have a delayed onset but I don't believe it peaks anywhere near the effects of oral.

@SonOfEurope , your experience with progesterone is very intriguing, after three topical drops of Cortinon (8mg prog:1mg DHEA) spaced out yesterday and one drop oral before bed, I had the best sleep in maybe my entire life! I lept out of bed energized calm and focused, and felt ready for a great workout if it wasn't time to head into work. I noticed a chiseled face and a distinct look of sympathy for myself in the mirror. I'm really trying to quit a 13 months long 6-9 gram per day kratom habit whilst continuing to heal a chronic scapular/shoulder-girdle imbalance (and work a desk job .) I was able to completely skip my morning dose today until 1pm, (which I have not done since starting kratom last October,) and I believe that single dose today can get me through the night with a bit more progesterone this evening, I plan on taking 2 drops, both oral or one each topical and oral. Question: Did you experience a penile numbing effect in the begining? My sleep erections were not as strong last night, but I did notice increased frequency of erections throughout the day yesterday and today. I've read another users anecdote where they claimed this effect stopped after the initiation period. I took 2mg androsterone yesterday, so I will skip that today and maybe take 1mg tommorow. I understand you kicked a benzo habit with progesterone and so I would personally greatly appreciate your feedback.

Everything I can find on absorption is all speculation, from Ray stating 20% topical to @SonOfEurope claiming 90%
oral subjectively feels the strongest to me.

I came off keto in late June and ideally this will help me to purge some lingering tissue estrogens, in addition to continue healing my scapular imbalance without a kratom dependency. My vitamins and minerals are plentiful, macros usually 350-500g carbs 45-120g fat and 160-180 protein (including collagen.) 27 years old 5'10" ~175

 

[Yody]

.

 

[SonOfEurope]

Where did you hear that? I've read around here that oral absorption is the highest, and that Ray has said that oral is closer to ~20% -- I feel the most effects from cortinon+ orally, topical seems to have a delayed onset but I don't believe it peaks anywhere near the effects of oral.

@SonOfEurope , your experience with progesterone is very intriguing, after three topical drops of Cortinon (8mg prog:1mg DHEA) spaced out yesterday and one drop oral before bed, I had the best sleep in maybe my entire life! I lept out of bed energized calm and focused, and felt ready for a great workout if it wasn't time to head into work. I noticed a chiseled face and a distinct look of sympathy for myself in the mirror. I'm really trying to quit a 13 months long 6-9 gram per day kratom habit whilst continuing to heal a chronic scapular/shoulder-girdle imbalance (and work a desk job .) I was able to completely skip my morning dose today until 1pm, (which I have not done since starting kratom last October,) and I believe that single dose today can get me through the night with a bit more progesterone this evening, I plan on taking 2 drops, both oral or one each topical and oral. Question: Did you experience a penile numbing effect in the begining? My sleep erections were not as strong last night, but I did notice increased frequency of erections throughout the day yesterday and today. I've read another users anecdote where they claimed this effect stopped after the initiation period. I took 2mg androsterone yesterday, so I will skip that today and maybe take 1mg tommorow. I understand you kicked a benzo habit with progesterone and so I would personally greatly appreciate your feedback.

Everything I can find on absorption is all speculation, from Ray stating 20% topical to @SonOfEurope claiming 90%
oral subjectively feels the strongest to me.

I came off keto in late June and ideally this will help me to purge some lingering tissue estrogens, in addition to continue healing my scapular imbalance without a kratom dependency. My vitamins and minerals are plentiful, macros usually 350-500g carbs 45-120g fat and 160-180 protein (including collagen.) 27 years old 5'10" ~175

Thanks Yody,

Cortinon is something we all ought to be thankful to Haidut for... Perfect ratio he chose from his enormous knowledge on the subject.

To flush the estrogen faster, I'd advice you do large dose progesterone for 5 (five) days, between 60 and 100mg, then bring it down to 8-20 mg as you feel is most anabolic.

With a high dose you'll be very anesthesized, not just down there but the long term benefits are worth it.

Just don't drive or operate machinery, take those biggeons before bed.

It should help you get that Kratom thing out of your life, an increase in Progesterone will have pregnenolone-sparring effects, Progesterone will help normalize activity in the CNS and heal dependencies gradually but an effort must be made as I did to come off klonopin (would have been impossible without it and took me two years...)

Desk jobs can wreck you I hope you've improved posture, I work physically at the moment but I'm always careful with the shoulders.

Keto can wreck you... I never shed as much hair God... And I was only 22 or 23.

K2 will help you as will plenty of Natural vitamin C, since oranges are expensive here and I only eat them as a snack, I squeeze 2 limes for extra intake.

________

Yes - at the very beginning I did make me numb, despite feeling very horny (because of the estrogen coming out ) it's also part of the anesthetic nature of progesterone and if you pay attention you'll realize your limbs go numb faster as well - at a dose of under 25mg (which I advice be split in two) it should go away within 2 or 3 weeks.

Assuming 20mg of progesterone are accompanied by 3 or 4 mg DHEA the androgenic precursor is there so DHT will not be tanked. Free testosterone should increase and your thought pattern more towards a high dopamine state.

It's important to increase both Calcium and Magnesium while using P4, as I said its extreme anti glucocorticoid and mineralocorticoid nature makes it remove calcium from exited and estrogenized tissues and put it where it's supposed to be, in bones and PH regulation. Magnesium will inherently be affected.

When I tried to go up to 45mg the "Anesthesia" was just too much so I backed down to 26 or 28mg and added those 2mg DHEA. Libido is great but different than the more "constantly aroused" estrogenic libido of before, you are more in control and can take your time with women.

Morning "wood" 100% normal for me.. But I am indeed surprised some dudes on here are doing over 100mg without being anesthesized beyond feeling anything and they don't even take Testosterone/DHT with it, 100mg long-term is a massive dose

My original pursuit upon starting progesterone was to come off benzos, which I've accomplished so, soon I will reduce the dose to a more natural 14mg but keep the 2mg DHEA and add in a tiny drop of androsterone, my hair shedding will not come back as I've fixed my metabolism (healed ) and I won't lose muscle either... Just cut a bit of bodyfat down to 170lbs and eat as clean and lean as possible next spring on a caloric surplus, hope to reach 185 while still below 15% before repeating.

I'll be:

14 mg progesterone
2 mg DHEA
1 mg Androsterone.

Your macros seem good.... Some people do better with higher fat as long as you watch the damn Poofah, have you measured thyroid and have you tried Tyromix? I did for a short time and was hyper-energetic, your weight is perfect for your height , after you heal from this (it will take some time bro) are you looking to gain lean mass?

 

[Yody]

Thanks Yody,

Cortinon is something we all ought to be thankful to Haidut for... Perfect ratio he chose from his enormous knowledge on the subject.

To flush the estrogen faster, I'd advice you do large dose progesterone for 5 (five) days, between 60 and 100mg, then bring it down to 8-20 mg as you feel is most anabolic.

With a high dose you'll be very anesthesized, not just down there but the long term benefits are worth it.

Just don't drive or operate machinery, take those biggeons before bed.

It should help you get that Kratom thing out of your life, an increase in Progesterone will have pregnenolone-sparring effects, Progesterone will help normalize activity in the CNS and heal dependencies gradually but an effort must be made as I did to come off klonopin (would have been impossible without it and took me two years...)

Desk jobs can wreck you I hope you've improved posture, I work physically at the moment but I'm always careful with the shoulders.

Keto can wreck you... I never shed as much hair God... And I was only 22 or 23.

K2 will help you as will plenty of Natural vitamin C, since oranges are expensive here and I only eat them as a snack, I squeeze 2 limes for extra intake.

________

Yes - at the very beginning I did make me numb, despite feeling very horny (because of the estrogen coming out ) it's also part of the anesthetic nature of progesterone and if you pay attention you'll realize your limbs go numb faster as well - at a dose of under 25mg (which I advice be split in two) it should go away within 2 or 3 weeks.

Assuming 20mg of progesterone are accompanied by 3 or 4 mg DHEA the androgenic precursor is there so DHT will not be tanked. Free testosterone should increase and your thought pattern more towards a high dopamine state.

It's important to increase both Calcium and Magnesium while using P4, as I said its extreme anti glucocorticoid and mineralocorticoid nature makes it remove calcium from exited and estrogenized tissues and put it where it's supposed to be, in bones and PH regulation. Magnesium will inherently be affected.

When I tried to go up to 45mg the "Anesthesia" was just too much so I backed down to 26 or 28mg and added those 2mg DHEA. Libido is great but different than the more "constantly aroused" estrogenic libido of before, you are more in control and can take your time with women.

Morning "wood" 100% normal for me.. But I am indeed surprised some dudes on here are doing over 100mg without being anesthesized beyond feeling anything and they don't even take Testosterone/DHT with it, 100mg long-term is a massive dose

My original pursuit upon starting progesterone was to come off benzos, which I've accomplished so, soon I will reduce the dose to a more natural 14mg but keep the 2mg DHEA and add in a tiny drop of androsterone, my hair shedding will not come back as I've fixed my metabolism (healed ) and I won't lose muscle either... Just cut a bit of bodyfat down to 170lbs and eat as clean and lean as possible next spring on a caloric surplus, hope to reach 185 while still below 15% before repeating.

I'll be:

14 mg progesterone
2 mg DHEA
1 mg Androsterone.

Your macros seem good.... Some people do better with higher fat as long as you watch the damn Poofah, have you measured thyroid and have you tried Tyromix? I did for a short time and was hyper-energetic, your weight is perfect for your height , after you heal from this (it will take some time bro) are you looking to gain lean mass?

Thank you for your response bruv! It looks like I'll be ordering some Progestene to go along with my Cortinon+ to tune the dosage without going over 5mg of DHEA. I keep PUFAs below 10g, mainly from goat milk, eggs, meat, and lean chicken. I'm not afraid of going over 150 grams of fat on some days when the body's calling for it, I never bring fat above 40% of macros. I use eggshell calcium and mag glycinate, K2, D, A, E, taurine, creatine, beta alanine, Cardenosine, Oxidal, Defibron, Mitolipin, sometimes Pyrucet.

I have not measured thyroid at all this year, but I do have Tyromix and Tyronene which I used lightly when transitioning out of keto.

I am looking to gain more mass and ideally reach my genetic potential within a few years. The scapular imbalance has been my biggest drawback lately, plaguing me for almost 3 years now. Someone fell on my head from a mezzanine at a concert; I didn't feel anything bothersome until a few months later when I noticed I had to continually stretch in an awkward manner after incorporating kettlebell swings. I wasted 3 years of early adulthood snorting heroin and fentanyl analogues, and after a year of sobriety and career focus drank an unreasonable amount of codeine for another year. So I never really gave my body a solid chance to optimize. Initially I didn't want to get the neck/shoulder looked at for fear of relapsing into opioids if I had learned they wanted to put a screw in my neck or something like that. My skull had recalcified this gnarly unnatural bump around the occipital area, tracing back to the spine through the rear neck. Chronic headache-nausea ensued so I finally bit the bullet back in February and went to the doctor, thinking that maybe I needed an MRI, (which I never got,) and I've been doing physical therapy since.

In retrospect, wasting years dependant on opioids, being late to start exercising, that incident at the concert, and an atrocious mind-muscle connection, (even Similac during infancy,) all added up for an agonizing but rightly deserved awakening. I've stopped doubting the body's amazing capability to heal, and progesterone may very well be the exact thing I need to expedite the current healing process.

Feeling great again today, easily using 40-50% less kratom than I have the past few weeks, a small taper today from yesterday's significant jump. I took 3 drops of Cortinon+ throughout the morning and afternoon, and will put a final two in my nightly goat milk with collagen honey and date syrup. I'll venture into 60-100mg territory once the Progestene comes in. Thanks for your input brother!

Stay well,
Yody

 

[Sunrise]

I’m taking 6 keto p4 and DHEA/pregnenolone at around 2mg each per day. I can say that I’m gaining weight and feeling stronger in my workouts.
It feels better than taking 2mg test base.

So you would say that this is equivalent or better than taking thebprogesterone dhea combo? Even.without the keto?

 

[Andman]

I've been doing the higher doses (about 135mg a day) for about six weeks now, and it certainly seems to help build lean mass. Biceps now are firm like when I used to go to the gym regularly, although I have done zero working out, beyond regular walking. Haven't noticed any negative effects on libido, so maybe the 10mg DHEA daily is doing it's job. Mood and energy are pretty good, especially considering the satanic/demonic forces trying to obviously crush humanity and our souls at the moment. Skin is looking the best it ever has in my adult life.

I will continue this dose till at least the end of the year, and then reevaluate. I'll probably still do some sort of higher prog dose, I'm thinking at least 75mg daily at the moment, to see if I get the Anti Aging benefits Haidut suggested here-

Reversing human aging likely possible with progesterone / DHEA – To Extract Knowledge from Matter

giving this a try too at 1mg/kg prog and 0,15mg/kg dhea (cortinon+ in mct/tocopherols)

works out to around 82mg prog/12mg dhea in my case - will have to lower the dose probably, as my libido is pretty much gone, and the sedation is a bit too much at work especially

seems to help my inflamed eye (uveitis) however! been able to quit all cortisone/prednisone eyedrops cold turkey

i should add that im also using t3, ADEK (estroban) and am pretty lean - could be why my libido crashes on a compareatively lower dose even with 10+mg of dhea

other than that ive seen improvements in digestion, skin, mood, eyesight - no increase in temps however which is curious

 

[Spartan300]

I intend to log progress here whilst I try this out.

Started with 20mg prog before bed just over a week ago.
I added 1mg preg/1mg DHEA from Tue but discontinued from Friday.
Also added 0.5mg cypro from Tuesday which remains.

Generally this first week has been a good week and the best I have felt in a long time.
More positive outlook, living more in the present and not overthinking things.
I have noticed more self belief and less concern for what people think.
Prior to starting I had been worried about libido as low doses of around 3mg prog had seemed to be detrimental.
Morning wood was improved until the last 2 or 3 days which saw a decline.
I haven't noticed any sedation and sleep didn't improve until I added cypro.
Waking temps were up a little, 36.4 or 36.5 until last couple of days. This morning was 36.2.
The decline in temp/libido I'm putting down to one of two things:
1. I added 1mg of DHEA/1mg preg 3 nights ago and libido declined. I've now removed this.
2. Because I was feeling better I had a couple of brief workouts which may have been a little too intense. I'll now be backing off again.

Stats one week ago (start) - 152lb 16.2% bf
Now - 153lb 16.3% bf

 

[Mossy]

Thanks to all for sharing your experiences with these larger doses. It’s interesting how @tankasnowgod has no negative effects and he’s using the largest dose by far. I realize our bodies are at different states and react accordingly.

I’m very eager to try this but I can’t afford a bad reaction and to miss work. No matter how much I attempt to up the magnesium, calcium and salt, I still get negative effects from most supps—especially hormones. I’ll get very dehydrated, as well as swollen liver, serotonin gut response (dry cough which feels like it’s rooted in the gut, RLS, allergic type reaction of air-hunger, and over-all malaise).

I look forward to your successes, as an inspiration.

 

[Spartan300]

Week 2 update:

Start - 152lb 16.2% bf
Now - 153lb 16.2% bf

I have had an active week physically working but I have not done any additional exercise. End of week 1 I upped dosage to 40mg split am/pm. Mood & libido dropped which I put down to over-exercise mentioned in previous post but after a couple of days I dropped back to 20mg prog pm only.

I also re-introduced vit B1 end of week 1. Before the perceived overtraining event I felt bulletproof & pretty much emotionally unshakable. This all evaporated which surprised me & some emotional stress latter part of this week hit me harder than I expected.

Today I feel 70% back to my improved position after the first week and the only thing I have stopped (none yesterday or today) is the B1.

Plan for coming week:
1. introduce some A/E/K/D to see if it makes thyroid more effective
2. Maybe re-introduce the am prog dose
3. re-introduce some v light weights sessions