DHEA + Progesterone == Pro-anabolic, Testosterone-promoting?

[tankasnowgod]

I suspect I have some liver damage from hemochromatosis, I'm trying to reverse it, but being hypo makes it very difficult. I can't handle too much protein. I get estrogenic effects from progesterone, so I think definitely if your liver is not functioning great and because of that for intance you lack proper vitamin A storage, maybe progesterone is not such a good idea. I could be wrong...

Curious, what was your highest ferritin test?

 

[Bart1]

Curious, what was your highest ferritin test?

I'm now 39; it was found around age 21 and then ferritin was something like 350. Donated on average 3 times per year. However, I did have multiple reading of iron saturation of 100%! They never told me that was a problem, they only looked at ferritin

 

[Spartan300]

I recently tried low dose progesterone again in an attempt to help with insomnia. All I noticed was that my libido seemed worse & I become overly emotional. No improvement to sleep.

I didn't use DHEA with it because my DHEA-S level tested above ref range.

 

[Beastmode]

I suspect I have some liver damage from hemochromatosis, I'm trying to reverse it, but being hypo makes it very difficult. I can't handle too much protein. I get estrogenic effects from progesterone, so I think definitely if your liver is not functioning great and because of that for intance you lack proper vitamin A storage, maybe progesterone is not such a good idea. I could be wrong...

Estrogenic effects from progesterone? I don't know if progesterone is right for you overall, but if you're taking a quality progesterone (i.e- progest-e,) the likelihood of it giving you estrogenic reactions is very minimal. Sounds like you have a "catch 22" as the body needs enough protein for the liver to rid the estrogen, yet when you have a "too much" protein I'm assuming, you can't handle it.

Maybe email Peat directly with your case history and conundrum and see what he has to say?

Good luck!

 

[milkboi]

I remember seeing this article by Lyle MacDonald a while ago-

Anabolic Steroids and Muscle Growth

One of the main points of the article is that steroids alone work better than training alone when it comes to muscle growth, and the two together are synergistic.

He cites these studies-

The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men - PubMed

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men - PubMed

Testosterone replacement increases fat-free mass and muscle size in hypogonadal men - PubMed

So, with no exercise, one long lasting dose of 600mg of Test per week added about 6.6 pounds of muscle in normal men over 10 weeks, and the same dose added about 17 pounds of muscle over 20 weeks. For hypogonadal men, 100mg of Test per week added 11 pounds of muscle over 10 weeks.

According to Haidut, his body builder friend said that 50mg Prog with 5mg DHEA 3 times a day was similar to 75 mg test. That would be about 525 mg a week, and approximates the studies Lyle MacDonald cited. The Prog/DHEA might work a little better, seeing as it's dosed more frequently.

Might it be possible for a hypogonadal man to make some insane gains (say, 20 pounds of muscle in ten weeks) with no training using progesterone and DHEA?

I don't think so, 20 pounds of muscle mass in ten weeks doesn't seem realistic at all WITH training, let alone without.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I don't think so, 20 pounds of muscle mass in ten weeks doesn't seem realistic at all WITH training, let alone without.

I don't mean it as a thought experiment, I mean it as a REAL experiment.

Anyway, if you look at the studies that Lyle cited, it doesn't seem far fetched (although I am proposing this in men who start of with a muscular disadvantage, not normal men nor regular weightlifters).

In 10 weeks, normal men gained 13 pounds of muscle with 600mg Test per week plus training.

In 10 weeks, hypogonal men gained 11 pounds of muscle with just 100mg Test per week.

A higher dose to hypogonal men should have allowed them to gain more muscle mass in 10 weeks, based on other studies cited.

It might be too much of a stretch, but clearly, 11-13 pounds of muscle mass gained is in the realm of possibility in 10 weeks...... so long as you believe the studies.

 

[TheBeard]

I don't think so, 20 pounds of muscle mass in ten weeks doesn't seem realistic at all WITH training, let alone without.

Highly possible and not unheard of with test cycles, even more so if you add wet AAS.

 

[milkboi]

Highly possible and not unheard of with test cycles, even more so if you add wet AAS.

We are talking about pure muscle mass gain here. 20 pounds of muscle gain might be possible but only a small minority will achieve results like that, and that assumes training and nutrition is 100% on point. Also, most cycles are longer than 10 weeks, so we have to take that into account as well. So I wouldn’t bet money on someone gaining 20 pounds of pure muscle without training using Prog and DHEA, actually I’d bet money against it.

 

[JDreamer]

Where can I get my hands on a 5mg DHEA cream? Can't seem to locate anything online and I really need to start pairing it up with my progesterone.

 

[milkboi]

I don't mean it as a thought experiment, I mean it as a REAL experiment.

Anyway, if you look at the studies that Lyle cited, it doesn't seem far fetched (although I am proposing this in men who start of with a muscular disadvantage, not normal men nor regular weightlifters).

In 10 weeks, normal men gained 13 pounds of muscle with 600mg Test per week plus training.

In 10 weeks, hypogonal men gained 11 pounds of muscle with just 100mg Test per week.

A higher dose to hypogonal men should have allowed them to gain more muscle mass in 10 weeks, based on other studies cited.

It might be too much of a stretch, but clearly, 11-13 pounds of muscle mass gained is in the realm of possibility in 10 weeks...... so long as you believe the studies.

Yeah, 11-13 might be possible. There is a point of diminished returns with T (or DHEA and Prog for that matter) like there is with literally every substance, so doubling the dose won’t result in double the amount of muscle mass gained most likely.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Yeah, 11-13 might be possible. There is probably a point of diminished returns with T (or DHEA and Prog for that matter) like there is with literally every substance, so doubling the dose won’t result in double the amount of muscle mass gained most likely.

Well, if you look at the studies, 100mg a week was for hypogonadal men, and 600 mg a week was for normal men. If you were to approach 600 mg a week (in the Prog/DHEA equivilant), that's still 6X the dose used in the hypogonal men study. I didn't suggest 66 pounds of muscle gained.

But if you add the amount of muscle gained by normal men at 600 mg (6.6 pounds) along with the muscle gained by hypogonal men at 100 mg (11 pounds), you get 17.6 pounds, which is close to 20. I don't know if that would work or not, but the training plus test group actually exceeded the amount of muscle gained by just adding training alone and test alone in the first study.

And to be fair, we are talking about a dose of 1050 mg Progesterone a week along with 105 mg DHEA.

 

[milkboi]

Well, if you look at the studies, 100mg a week was for hypogonadal men, and 600 mg a week was for normal men. If you were to approach 600 mg a week (in the Prog/DHEA equivilant), that's still 6X the dose used in the hypogonal men study. I didn't suggest 66 pounds of muscle gained.

But if you add the amount of muscle gained by normal men at 600 mg (6.6 pounds) along with the muscle gained by hypogonal men at 100 mg (11 pounds), you get 17.6 pounds, which is close to 20. I don't know if that would work or not, but the training plus test group actually exceeded the amount of muscle gained by just adding training alone and test alone in the first study.

And to be fair, we are talking about a dose of 1050 mg Progesterone a week along with 105 mg DHEA.

It'd be an interesting experiment for sure. And maybe it would really be that effective in super "hypo-muscular" individuals.

 

[Spartan300]

I recently tried low dose progesterone again in an attempt to help with insomnia. All I noticed was that my libido seemed worse & I become overly emotional. No improvement to sleep.

I didn't use DHEA with it because my DHEA-S level tested above ref range.

I guess the point I failed to state clearly here is that I have never felt the slightest hint of anabolism/muscle growth with progesterone. All I experience are what I have perceived to be estrogenic symptoms.
However I have recently seen a Peat quote stating that prostaglandins promote aromatase activity & I am having to use prostaglandin eye drops.

 

[TheBeard]

Yesterday was my first progesterone trial.

I applied quite some cream to my arms and belly, for a total of roughly 50mg around 9pm.

By 10pm I was feeling more sleepy and relaxed than I usually do.
I had no trouble falling asleep and staying asleep, even after applying more testosterone cream than I usually do and which amps me up.

This morning I woke up feeling rested, but at the same time like I was hit by a truck.
It was hard waking up, but once up I was rather energetic.
Neck and face were just as swollen, so I didn't get that diuretic or flushing people talk about with progesterone.

The way I feel today reminds me a bit of how I feel after taking melatonin or GABA the night before, albeit slightly less groggy.

Muscles feel slighly less tight and less swollen although I had carbs yesterday.

I don't like that it makes me feel less driven. I have that passive and complacent look on life I usually get with melatonin. It feels very serotonergic.

Not sure I will continue with the experiment this week as I have social and professional events I need to attend, I want to feel optimal for them.

 

[Frankdee20]

Does this apply to Cortinon ?

 

[milkboi]

Does this apply to Cortinon ?

Of course. Haidut said that a higher ProgHEA is better for this purpose, that's why there is Cortinon+ IIRC

 

[Frankdee20]

Of course. Haidut said that a higher ProgHEA is better for this purpose, that's why there is Cortinon+ IIRC

Are there 2 ratios available on his site ? Thanks for replying

 

[milkboi]

Are there 2 ratios available on his site ? Thanks for replying

Yup. CortiNon

 

[SonOfEurope]

I love DHEA, especially combined with progesterone, but why does it make my hair fall out?

Always keep the DHEA below 4-5mg a day or some aromatization is inevitable, you can go as high as 40mg p4 a day for muscle gain without interference with other androgenic pathways just fine as I did to gain almost 30lbs of mass in less than two Years (80 weeks. ), I was a 157lb thin guy in 2017 and now 189lbs, and while some fat was gained (from 14% to 17%) people are still impressed at my shoulders size increase. I suggest learning to eat big without too much fat in the diet and raising all mineral intake.

You will need to eat more sugars and protein and sleep more, without that any anabolic substance is useless and can even be harmful.

 

[JDreamer]

Always keep the DHEA below 4-5mg a day or some aromatization is inevitable, you can go as high as 40mg p4 a day for muscle gain without interference with other androgenic pathways just fine as I did to gain almost 30lbs of mass in less than two Years (80 weeks. ), I was a 157lb thin guy in 2017 and now 189lbs, and while some fat was gained (from 14% to 17%) people are still impressed at my shoulders size increase. I suggest learning to eat big without too much fat in the diet and raising all mineral intake.

You will need to eat more sugars and protein and sleep more, without that any anabolic substance is useless and can even be harmful.

P4?