DHEA + Progesterone == Pro-anabolic, Testosterone-promoting?

R J

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I don't mean it as a thought experiment, I mean it as a REAL experiment.

Anyway, if you look at the studies that Lyle cited, it doesn't seem far fetched (although I am proposing this in men who start of with a muscular disadvantage, not normal men nor regular weightlifters).

In 10 weeks, normal men gained 13 pounds of muscle with 600mg Test per week plus training.

In 10 weeks, hypogonal men gained 11 pounds of muscle with just 100mg Test per week.

A higher dose to hypogonal men should have allowed them to gain more muscle mass in 10 weeks, based on other studies cited.

It might be too much of a stretch, but clearly, 11-13 pounds of muscle mass gained is in the realm of possibility in 10 weeks...... so long as you believe the studies.

I think those studies are maybe getting some water retention mixing up with lean mass. I think if muscle cell swells with water it gets counted as lean mass? Not sure. I once gained nearly 20lb in 6 weeks on a testosterone and GH peptide cycle. It mostly disappeared when I went off because it was just bloat. Actual muscle gain was like 3lb maybe. I was training and eating in a non worthwhile manner anyways.
 
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R J

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Always keep the DHEA below 4-5mg a day or some aromatization is inevitable, you can go as high as 40mg p4 a day for muscle gain without interference with other androgenic pathways just fine as I did to gain almost 30lbs of mass in less than two Years (80 weeks. ), I was a 157lb thin guy in 2017 and now 189lbs, and while some fat was gained (from 14% to 17%) people are still impressed at my shoulders size increase. I suggest learning to eat big without too much fat in the diet and raising all mineral intake.

You will need to eat more sugars and protein and sleep more, without that any anabolic substance is useless and can even be harmful.

Pretty sure georgi reccomended 5mg dhea up to 3x a day and around 45mg prog with each dose .
 

R J

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I have yet to see the post of bloodwork or even any evidence anyone has tried this for real bodybuilding results. I’m planing to do it, 5mg dhea 45mg p4 3x a day. I’ll start sometime this winter. Other than testosterone before/after what should I get measured ? For science
 

baccheion

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I have yet to see the post of bloodwork or even any evidence anyone has tried this for real bodybuilding results. I’m planing to do it, 5mg dhea 45mg p4 3x a day. I’ll start sometime this winter. Other than testosterone before/after what should I get measured ? For science
Total testosterone, free testosterone, SHBG, cortisol, estradiol..

135 mg progesterone isn't too much per day?
 
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R J

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Total testosterone, free testosterone, SHBG, cortisol, estradiol..

135 mg progesterone isn't too much per day?

Ok,

And I have no idea. I’ll start with a single dose of 45mg and 5mg . I think the protocol georgi outlined was 3x per day.
 

tankasnowgod

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135 mg progesterone isn't too much per day?

Too much in what sense? I've been taking right around that number for about a month (along with 15 mg DHEA), noticed no negatives so far, only positives. Though this could be a YMMV thing.
 

R J

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Too much in what sense? I've been taking right around that number for about a month (along with 15 mg DHEA), noticed no negatives so far, only positives. Though this could be a YMMV thing.

You do the 3x per day dosing ?
 

Spartan300

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Were those test results ever forthcoming @haidut ?

Did anyone else try this? Previous use of low dose prog didn't work well for me but the last two nights I decided to try 20mg instead of around 3mg and no libido issues so far.
I intend to keep this going unless I experience issues which I'll report. Sleep hasn't been as deep as I expected it might be but it ok with just one short waking episode around 1am.

I'm hoping to gain some mass out of this. @SonOfEurope I've seen you say that you gain mass easily - was this always the case or just since you started using progesterone?
 

SonOfEurope

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@Spartan300

20mg should enhance anti-catabolisn without tanking DHT. You might settle at 15mg if preferred.

Yes you gain mass... Progesterone is a glucocorticoid antagonist more potent than testosterone so it prevents muscle loss and speeds up recovery, albeit slightly better to throw in 2 or 3 mg of DHEA but still.

What you gotta remember is - more calories, clean calories, vitamins and increase all MINERALS especially Magnesium and Calcium as progesterone will depend on them to run its metabolism - the "anti-androgenicity" of progesterone will be a lot less with sufficient minerals.

Sleep as much as your body wants you to sleep. :
 

Spartan300

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Thanks @SonOfEurope I'll keep up with calories, Mg and Ca.

Only ability to add in a little DHEA would be to add a drop or two of pansterone but I'm undecided on that as my DHEA-S levels when tested were above ref range.
 

tankasnowgod

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Were those test results ever forthcoming @haidut ?

Did anyone else try this? Previous use of low dose prog didn't work well for me but the last two nights I decided to try 20mg instead of around 3mg and no libido issues so far.
I intend to keep this going unless I experience issues which I'll report. Sleep hasn't been as deep as I expected it might be but it ok with just one short waking episode around 1am.

I'm hoping to gain some mass out of this. @SonOfEurope I've seen you say that you gain mass easily - was this always the case or just since you started using progesterone?

I've been doing the higher doses (about 135mg a day) for about six weeks now, and it certainly seems to help build lean mass. Biceps now are firm like when I used to go to the gym regularly, although I have done zero working out, beyond regular walking. Haven't noticed any negative effects on libido, so maybe the 10mg DHEA daily is doing it's job. Mood and energy are pretty good, especially considering the satanic/demonic forces trying to obviously crush humanity and our souls at the moment. Skin is looking the best it ever has in my adult life.

I will continue this dose till at least the end of the year, and then reevaluate. I'll probably still do some sort of higher prog dose, I'm thinking at least 75mg daily at the moment, to see if I get the Anti Aging benefits Haidut suggested here-

Reversing human aging likely possible with progesterone / DHEA – To Extract Knowledge from Matter
 

Spartan300

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@tankasnowgod What brand are you using for both prog & DHEA? I'd like to use the 8:1 Cortinon but that is much more expensive than most options.

I've seen Source naturals recommended but that is derived from soy? At the doses you're using you'll be getting through quite a bit of it but good to hear positive reports.
 

tankasnowgod

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@tankasnowgod What brand are you using for both prog & DHEA? I'd like to use the 8:1 Cortinon but that is much more expensive than most options.

I've seen Source naturals recommended but that is derived from soy? At the doses you're using you'll be getting through quite a bit of it but good to hear positive reports.

For progesterone, I've been using Ona's Naturals 10% oil. It's in Vitamin E, and I think the E is derived from soy, but that doesn't bother me (actually, it says on the website derived from sunflower oil, but contains soy). The Prog itself is yam derived, I beleive. DHEA, KAL brand 5mg (so I can split the dose). I take both orally, and I've been putting the oil into a capsule, and taking with meals. Seems to work pretty well. Might try Such Labs Prog powder at some point, it is even priced lower.
 

Breadpill

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I've been using higher doses daily for about a week @150mg progesterone / 5mg DHEA (Pansterone). Have noticed increased muscle mass while going to the gym. No issues with libido. Definitely much hungrier.
 

Spartan300

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Thanks, I'm in UK so will look into what is available.

Some serious doses there. I'm planning to do a week at 20mg/day and then go to 20mg twice/day if all ok
 

baccheion

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@Spartan300

20mg should enhance anti-catabolisn without tanking DHT. You might settle at 15mg if preferred.

Yes you gain mass... Progesterone is a glucocorticoid antagonist more potent than testosterone so it prevents muscle loss and speeds up recovery, albeit slightly better to throw in 2 or 3 mg of DHEA but still.

What you gotta remember is - more calories, clean calories, vitamins and increase all MINERALS especially Magnesium and Calcium as progesterone will depend on them to run its metabolism - the "anti-androgenicity" of progesterone will be a lot less with sufficient minerals.

Sleep as much as your body wants you to sleep. :
What mineral increase multiple? For example, potatoes + red meat? Or do you mean 1% milk and orange juice? What are example food stacks that capture the level of nutrients per calorie? How many calories for a typical weight person (154 lbs)? What if up to 175 lbs or 200 lbs?
 
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SonOfEurope

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What mineral increase multiple? For example, potatoes + red meat? Or do you mean 1% milk and orange juice? What are example food stacks that capture the level of nutrients per calorie? How many calories for a typical weight person (154 lbs)? What if up to 175 lbs or 200 lbs?


Well the body's use of minerals over their function for Bone plus hundreds of enzymatic functions and even thermal regulations. Etc. ... I cannot give an exact number.

Assuming a 178cm (5'10) 72kg (160lb) young man of 25 with overall good health and a decent BF % (12-15%) who ingests 2.400 calories a day.

He gets per day average:
3,000 mg Potassium
900 mg Calcium
300 mg Magnesium
25 mg zinc
4 mg copper



If he were to start, say, 20mg progesterone plus 4mg DHEA, I think the increase in potassium retention (in the cell) by progesterone will not demand much of an increase on that most basic mineral, although it has to go up as calories go up.

Increased intracellular potassium accelerates magnesium metabolism not to mention that a even a slight Thyroid improvement does, calcium will be more mobilized to bones both by progesterone's cortisol-counter effect and improved thyroid... Leaving some organs in need of higher intake (including testicles)

Zinc is essential to the 3ß-hsd enzyme and if gonadal function will improve you need more zinc (and vitamin A) thus also D... It's a chain that runs like a domino were one piece missing too long can wreak havoc.

But our bodies are intelligent enough to increase appetite, cravings, even guide the circadian rhythm in a direction were certain nutrients are better utilized.

Upon increasing his caloric intake from 2.400 to 3.200 calories....

4,000 mg Potassium
1,500 mg Calcium
600 mg Magnesium
50 mg zinc
8 mg copper.


Im no godly authority that is what just sounds coherent to me if you asked me for an example, if anything these bio-mechanics are better questions for members like Tyw (I recommend everyone looks him up) and co.

BTW, I'm surprised some of you are doing well on doses over 100mg/day, I did go up to 45mg but I was too sedated a year ago... Craving naps too often lol.... But I didn't have the DHEA in there so perhaps I was lacking that exciting counter force, although the very strong androgen DHT and Androsterone are also Gaba-ergic so there must he more to it.

The 28mg don't sedate me, just sleep like a baby 9 hours through the night. Im off the progesterone until tomorrow because of that experiment I promised I would make on that other thread, today is my day 17 no-progesterone or dhea and I'm really missing the enhanced workout recovery but, other than that, - I can attest progesterone with moderate ratio DHEA do not shut down the HPTA axis in any way and actually protects leydig cells and the adrenals from estrogenic damage as my libido, hair, erection quality, mental function and mood and secondary androgenic characteristics are intact upon stopping them as they were while using them.

(Well... Something did change over a year of Progesterone and Peating....)

My hair shedding stopped and I bulked up almost 20lbs. My body has re-regularized anxiety levels that were insane before but then again progesterone helped me come off benzoes so that might be it.

It definitely heals damage the body has accumulated over time, even rejuvenates.... No wonder women that had more kids (more progesterone ) tend to live longer even. Think about it.

So nothing but benefits in my case as well.
 
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SonOfEurope

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And yes, the basic foods are best, potatoes, the rice that suits you best, beets and yams, gelatinous cuts but some muscle meat in there, organs, eggs, milk, ripe fruit as snacks, I'm all for lean fish but with the ocean polluted hmm... Oysters.. Cottage cheese, ghee or clarified butter, try to bring poofah as low as you can and favour carbs over fat to maximize lean gains, if one day you crave more fat go for it. But a small portion of calories Sat-fat suffices for cholesterol and Fat-solubles, it's much more costly to the body to create fat from de-novo lipogenesis than to just store in you're ingesting a high excess.

Calories? While going for gains on P+dhea? No less than 2,800 for the 154 lbs man, easily to 3,500 for a 200lb lean guy who starts the regimen.
 
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tankasnowgod

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Thanks, I'm in UK so will look into what is available.

Some serious doses there. I'm planning to do a week at 20mg/day and then go to 20mg twice/day if all ok

That might be a smarter way to go. I was curious to try out the "bodybuilder doses," as described at the beginning of this thread.

My guess is you will see mostly positives, especially if you add in a bit of DHEA, but this might be a YMMV thing.
 

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