DHEA + Progesterone == Pro-anabolic, Testosterone-promoting?

Gustav3Y

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So now I'm steady on 14mg progesterone and 2mg DHEA with occasional Andro.

But I was on 28 pure progesterone for a year and 9 months....

For those who are taking reasonable doses of no more than 30mg/day but are experiencing decreased libido... Please check that your calcium is at least at 1.5 grams per day, magnesium at 600-800mg and zinc at least 25mg - Even a modest increase in progesterone revolutionizes mineral use in the body.

When you say 600-800mg of magnesium you mean elemental magnesium calculated from a chemical compound / preparation (chloride, citrate, ect) ? Because if that is for elemental magnesium that would mean something like 3000+mg of chlorine magnesium compound.
 

Spartan300

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I reintroduced 1mg preg/DHEA last night in a less stressed/overtrained state & can confirm that I haven't experienced the previous loss of libido. Will stick with it for the time being.

Looks like my compromised exercise capacity & recovery ability got me again......
 

bobbity

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So now I'm steady on 14mg progesterone and 2mg DHEA with occasional Andro.

But I was on 28 pure progesterone for a year and 9 months....

For those who are taking reasonable doses of no more than 30mg/day but are experiencing decreased libido... Please check that your calcium is at least at 1.5 grams per day, magnesium at 600-800mg and zinc at least 25mg - Even a modest increase in progesterone revolutionizes mineral use in the body.

Yes!! I have had this experience and it has taken some experimentation with diet to optimise things. Haven't varied zinc much but calcium and magnesium are critical.
 

Mossy

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Recently I have added some T3 to the mix, its subjective but my hair certainly seems to be growing faster than it usually does at this time in winter. I think the delivery is a factor, most preparations with progesterone are oily and difficult to work through the hair.
Thanks for sharing your experience. If it’s convenient, could you share what brand progesterone, DHEA, and T3 you’re using? Also, is the T3 used topically along with the progesterone?
 

bobbity

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Thanks for sharing your experience. If it’s convenient, could you share what brand progesterone, DHEA, and T3 you’re using? Also, is the T3 used topically along with the progesterone?

Yes the T3 is just dissolved in the mixture. For these purposes I have just been using raw materials (they are available to me). I am sure that you could achieve similar results with idealabs offerings - just diluted and put into something with a sprayer.
 

Mossy

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Yes the T3 is just dissolved in the mixture. For these purposes I have just been using raw materials (they are available to me). I am sure that you could achieve similar results with idealabs offerings - just diluted and put into something with a sprayer.
Thank you. As time allows, I will look into this.
 

Mossy

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Along with the need for additional calcium and magnesium, do you guys see a need for additional salt?

Also, any idea why progesterone (Progest-e) would cause liver pain? Is this the initial release of estrogen, which will cease? (As the theory goes).
 

bobbity

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Along with the need for additional calcium and magnesium, do you guys see a need for additional salt?

Also, any idea why progesterone (Progest-e) would cause liver pain? Is this the initial release of estrogen, which will cease? (As the theory goes).
Yes to all of that. I find I crave salt more with increased dairy anyway. Never had liver pain from it and doubt I would even be able to identify that as a specific sensation.
 

Mossy

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Yes to all of that. I find I crave salt more with increased dairy anyway. Never had liver pain from it and doubt I would even be able to identify that as a specific sensation.
Ok, I’ll include salt with more calcium and magnesium.

My past experience has been liver pain (evident by pain in that area, especially as I inhale—probably enlarges it) when I take progesterone for consecutive days. I also get very dehydrated. Hopefully the increase of these three will help. Thank you.
 

Spartan300

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Week 3 update:

Start - 152lb 16.2% bf
Now - 153.5lb 16.3% bf

Very little to report in terms of progress. Libido still pretty good, mood, sleep, energy & temps remain unaffected.

However, I have just looked & the progesterone I'm using (Now solutions, natural progesterone) expired - 09/19. I'm guessing that this may have something to do with the lack of effect?
I have a new one I'll be starting tonight.
 

tankasnowgod

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However, I have just looked & the progesterone I'm using (Now solutions, natural progesterone) expired - 09/19. I'm guessing that this may have something to do with the lack of effect?
I have a new one I'll be starting tonight.

I don't know if that's all that great an option. Check out the list of ingredients-

ingredients.png


Sunflower seed oil? Saw Palmetto? Xanthan Gum?

The one I am using is just Vitamin E, MCT, and Progesterone, nothing else. There are some other good progesterone products that are simply progesterone and a solvent. There is even the pure progesterone powder.
 
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I noticed some decent effects when using progesterone topically, but didn't like the way the oiliness felt and lingered. Seems like it deserves more experimentation....

I'm interested in your perspective on the differences between oral and topical progesterone. Did you get a sense of (roughly) how much topical progesterone in vit E you needed to achieve the effects of a particular oral dose? At what topical doses did you observe "decent effects"?

I ask because I'd like to do high dose progesterone (to help with severe endotoxin overload and probably poor liver function) but will likely have to do it topically. (I get bad GI distress whenever I ingest any tocopherol orally.)
 
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@SonOfEurope: I'd like to ask you a question similar to the one I asked tankasnowgod above. In your experience, roughly what doses of topical progesterone give you results comparable to those of a particular oral dose? I think I remember reading that you've used both Progest-E and IdeaLabs' Progestene. Sorry if you've answered this question elsewhere and I missed it.

I probably have to use progesterone topically, and so far haven't had much luck with either topical Progest-E or topical Progestene, but I may just need to increase the doses a lot.
 

tankasnowgod

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I'm interested in your perspective on the differences between oral and topical progesterone. Did you get a sense of (roughly) how much topical progesterone in vit E you needed to achieve the effects of a particular oral dose? At what topical doses did you observe "decent effects"?

I ask because I'd like to do high dose progesterone (to help with severe endotoxin overload and probably poor liver function) but will likely have to do it topically. (I get bad GI distress whenever I ingest any tocopherol orally.)

I've had success with both methods, both oral and topical. I mostly do oral simply because it's easier for me at the moment. I think I even noticed decent effects, like biceps getting fuller, with about 20 mg a day topically over the course of a week (note, I was mostly appling to the inner elbow, so maybe biceps got the biggest amount). I didn't like the oiliness of the solution on my skin I was using, however, and I became more infrequent with dosing, and to no surprise, the effects went away. I think the idea of progesterone in the alcohol spray mentioned earlier would be good. Also, Haidut's product is excellent for topical use as well. If you are consistent in topical dosing with a good product, I think you can see good results.

A lot of the vitamin e products suggest applying to the lips and gums, and this would likely use both routes (as it's probably inevitable to swallow some). I've been trying this the past few days, and it also seems to work well. There might also be some value in using both routes simultaneously, especially if are targeting a certain area for increased muscle and/or fat loss (like applying some to the torso, as well as doing the oral route).

But really, whichever method you can be most consistent with will provide the best results.
 
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I've had success with both methods, both oral and topical. I mostly do oral simply because it's easier for me at the moment. I think I even noticed decent effects, like biceps getting fuller, with about 20 mg a day topically over the course of a week (note, I was mostly appling to the inner elbow, so maybe biceps got the biggest amount). I didn't like the oiliness of the solution on my skin I was using, however, and I became more infrequent with dosing, and to no surprise, the effects went away. I think the idea of progesterone in the alcohol spray mentioned earlier would be good. Also, Haidut's product is excellent for topical use as well. If you are consistent in topical dosing with a good product, I think you can see good results.

A lot of the vitamin e products suggest applying to the lips and gums, and this would likely use both routes (as it's probably inevitable to swallow some). I've been trying this the past few days, and it also seems to work well. There might also be some value in using both routes simultaneously, especially if are targeting a certain area for increased muscle and/or fat loss (like applying some to the torso, as well as doing the oral route).

But really, whichever method you can be most consistent with will provide the best results.

Thanks for this helpful information, @tankasnowgod.

Because topical progesterone (other than via the gums or lips) seems to take effect much more slowly than oral progesterone, I sometimes have difficulty gauging whether topical progesterone is reducing my symptoms. It's good that you found a visible measure of progress, i.e. bicep size.
 

SonOfEurope

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@Gustav3Y Thyroid healing from increased progesterone takes time so the more
@SonOfEurope: I'd like to ask you a question similar to the one I asked tankasnowgod above. In your experience, roughly what doses of topical progesterone give you results comparable to those of a particular oral dose? I think I remember reading that you've used both Progest-E and IdeaLabs' Progestene. Sorry if you've answered this question elsewhere and I missed it.

I probably have to use progesterone topically, and so far haven't had much luck with either topical Progest-E or topical Progestene, but I may just need to increase the doses a lot.

availability the better,
@SonOfEurope: I'd like to ask you a question similar to the one I asked tankasnowgod above. In your experience, roughly what doses of topical progesterone give you results comparable to those of a particular oral dose? I think I remember reading that you've used both Progest-E and IdeaLabs' Progestene. Sorry if you've answered this question elsewhere and I missed it.

I probably have to use progesterone topically, and so far haven't had much luck with either topical Progest-E or topical Progestene, but I may just need to increase the doses a lot.


Hard to answer as I always applied the progestene on the most penetrable areas (shoulder, triceps and especially forehead and wrists).

I have read that ray peat said only 10-15% of topical is absorbed but progestene has great topical absorption (for exact % this could be a better question for Haidut himself) provided you do don't mess with the area while it's being absorbed (at least 1 hour) but I'd say close to 90% gets into the bloodstream as I did not notice any difference when I applied those 8 drops idealabs or when I rubbed the 5 drops of progest - e every morning and evening on my gums.

Progest E hits you faster, progestene requires a good area to rub and that you do not shower (especially not with soap) for a few hours to make sure... Just like as you shouldn't wash immediately after taking the summer's midday sun or you'll wash away the Vit. D xD.

Progestene has good absorption due to the mix of fatty acids and ethanol base, I never really paid much attention to it since after 3 hours the topical creams and SFA/Alcohol from idealabs had already been fully absorbed.

If in doubt, judge by how you feel, if your intention is 15mg p4 and you will do topical then go with 21-24 mg just to make sure - but like I said its best to ask @haidut.. the most important thing is to not bath/shower for a few hours after topical and rotate areas as in right arm and shoulder morning left one evening - idealabs I applied 8 drops just to make sure I got my 14mg.

In the case of progest-e... It's too sticky and viscous for topical application - after swallowing all saliva and with a dry mouth apply the needed drops over the tongue and quickly spread it over your gums... Do not swallow for a while.

Progesterone doesn't really make you feel anything other than calmness and mild anesthesia with a gaba-like feeling of controllable relaxation and happiness (sometimes moodiness), with more need to sleep and eat... To see the benefits of increased thyroid, muscle and mental improvements takes some time and the adequate environment of nutrition, rest and minerals, light, Vit D and magnesium/Calcium.

What dose are you aiming for? For anabolic results the best is the 20-30mg a day split in two doses so it doesn't interfere with Testosterone while still opposing cortisol and estrogen. Lower doses can help one's mental state and higher doses (50mg+) require DHEA to not tank DHT.

Have you tried smoky mountain naturals cream (paraben free of course )? I had great topical absorption with that cream as well, but beware - 20mg per pump....

As long as Haidut's progestene is passing your skin AND as long as the progest-e is kept on gums before swallowing IT IS reaching your tissues and a blood test should show it after a few weeks. Give it time and experiment.


Best of luck brother.
 

Andman

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Thanks for this helpful information, @tankasnowgod.

Because topical progesterone (other than via the gums or lips) seems to take effect much more slowly than oral progesterone, I sometimes have difficulty gauging whether topical progesterone is reducing my symptoms. It's good that you found a visible measure of progress, i.e. bicep size.

you could the navel/belly button route - supposedly best spot for transdermal application
Navel Application / Absorption Rivals Intravenous One, Skin Route Not Far Behind
 
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Hard to answer as I always applied the progestene on the most penetrable areas (shoulder, triceps and especially forehead and wrists).

I have read that ray peat said only 10-15% of topical is absorbed but progestene has great topical absorption (for exact % this could be a better question for Haidut himself) provided you do don't mess with the area while it's being absorbed (at least 1 hour) but I'd say close to 90% gets into the bloodstream as I did not notice any difference when I applied those 8 drops idealabs or when I rubbed the 5 drops of progest - e every morning and evening on my gums.

Progest E hits you faster, progestene requires a good area to rub and that you do not shower (especially not with soap) for a few hours to make sure... Just like as you shouldn't wash immediately after taking the summer's midday sun or you'll wash away the Vit. D xD.

Progestene has good absorption due to the mix of fatty acids and ethanol base, I never really paid much attention to it since after 3 hours the topical creams and SFA/Alcohol from idealabs had already been fully absorbed.

If in doubt, judge by how you feel, if your intention is 15mg p4 and you will do topical then go with 21-24 mg just to make sure - but like I said its best to ask @haidut.. the most important thing is to not bath/shower for a few hours after topical and rotate areas as in right arm and shoulder morning left one evening - idealabs I applied 8 drops just to make sure I got my 14mg.

In the case of progest-e... It's too sticky and viscous for topical application - after swallowing all saliva and with a dry mouth apply the needed drops over the tongue and quickly spread it over your gums... Do not swallow for a while.

Progesterone doesn't really make you feel anything other than calmness and mild anesthesia with a gaba-like feeling of controllable relaxation and happiness (sometimes moodiness), with more need to sleep and eat... To see the benefits of increased thyroid, muscle and mental improvements takes some time and the adequate environment of nutrition, rest and minerals, light, Vit D and magnesium/Calcium.

What dose are you aiming for? For anabolic results the best is the 20-30mg a day split in two doses so it doesn't interfere with Testosterone while still opposing cortisol and estrogen. Lower doses can help one's mental state and higher doses (50mg+) require DHEA to not tank DHT.

Have you tried smoky mountain naturals cream (paraben free of course )? I had great topical absorption with that cream as well, but beware - 20mg per pump....

As long as Haidut's progestene is passing your skin AND as long as the progest-e is kept on gums before swallowing IT IS reaching your tissues and a blood test should show it after a few weeks. Give it time and experiment.


Best of luck brother.

Thank you, brother. Appreciate your help.

Will try topical application on the areas you suggested. I don't wash areas where I've applied supplements for at least 3-5 hours afterwards. Great to hear you're getting good absorption with Progestene. Will also check out Smoky Mountain.

My messed up GI does not tolerate any vitamin E, so I can't put Progest-E on my gums, but when I spread it over enough surface area on my skin, it does seem to absorb without much residue. So maybe I'm benefiting even though the absorption is too gradual for me to feel it.

I appreciate the counsel to be patient and to support progesterone and DHEA with good nutrition and rest.

I don't know yet how much progesterone I'll ultimately need, but for now I'd like to do 20-30 mg a few times per day. Will add DHEA as soon as estrogen is a little lower. (Probably high now because of chronic endotoxin poisoning and a malnourished liver. When I experimented with Progest-E long ago, I did not lose muscle or drive, and I'm sick enough now so that I'm not too worried about a short term decrease in androgens, anyway.)

I did not think Progestene was working for me, but last night, during an endotoxin stress attack, I noticed a wave of calm around 2-2.5 hours after taking Progestene, so I may just have been looking for results too soon.
 
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you could the navel/belly button route - supposedly best spot for transdermal application
Navel Application / Absorption Rivals Intravenous One, Skin Route Not Far Behind

Thanks, @Andman. When I've tried Progestene, I've mostly used the navel. But I may have overlooked the benefits of transdermal use through the navel either because they were too gradual to notice or because they took longer to arrive than I expected. As mentioned in my reply to Son of Europe above, topical Progestene (via the navel) may have helped interrupt a stress reaction to endotoxin last night.
 

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