DHEA + Progesterone == Pro-anabolic, Testosterone-promoting?

[Momado965]

Yes, I can confirm this. A ratio of up to 3:1 (progesteroneHEA) seems to work best for non-athletes but for people doing heavy lifting even higher ratios seem to work even better. The bodybuilder I was referring to uses up to 11:1 ratio and says it fully replaces his T injections without any difference, and in fact does not seem to suppress him. He has not done blood tests yet, but will do them in August and will post the results here.
Progesterone's blocking of muscle catabolism actually exceeds that of testosterone as it is a better/stronger GR antagonist than T. However, progesterone is considered catabolic hormone in men similar to T3 which really baffles me because I have not seen such effects from either. Both may have such effects in very high doses but in doses under 300mg progesterone, when combined with DHEA, seems to be remarkably anti-catabolic. T3 also has anti-cortisol effects and in lower doses it actually leads to decrease in fat and increase in muscle, partially due to thyrodi increasing androgen synthesis (especially the 5-AR derived ones).
I think his regimen is 5mg DHEA + 50mg progesterone, taken 3 times daily. He says that this removes any bloat that he used to get with T and that this combo feels equivalent to about 75mg injected T daily.

Is he taking 11:1 ratio topically or orally?

 

[Bad Linhat]

Yes, I can confirm this. A ratio of up to 3:1 (progesteroneHEA) seems to work best for non-athletes but for people doing heavy lifting even higher ratios seem to work even better. The bodybuilder I was referring to uses up to 11:1 ratio and says it fully replaces his T injections without any difference, and in fact does not seem to suppress him. He has not done blood tests yet, but will do them in August and will post the results here.
Progesterone's blocking of muscle catabolism actually exceeds that of testosterone as it is a better/stronger GR antagonist than T. However, progesterone is considered catabolic hormone in men similar to T3 which really baffles me because I have not seen such effects from either. Both may have such effects in very high doses but in doses under 300mg progesterone, when combined with DHEA, seems to be remarkably anti-catabolic. T3 also has anti-cortisol effects and in lower doses it actually leads to decrease in fat and increase in muscle, partially due to thyrodi increasing androgen synthesis (especially the 5-AR derived ones).
I think his regimen is 5mg DHEA + 50mg progesterone, taken 3 times daily. He says that this removes any bloat that he used to get with T and that this combo feels equivalent to about 75mg injected T daily.

@haidut
Can you please share the blood test ?

 

[Iron Man]

@haidut - Did you have any updates on your buddy's lab results? I'm very interested in this and would like an alternative to AAS.
With the ratios, can someone elaborate more on this? What does this transfer to in mg and dosages for a Bodybuilder?
Is natural progesterone cream ok to use?
Thanks.

 

[sun-maid]

Yes, I can confirm this. A ratio of up to 3:1 (progesteroneHEA) seems to work best for non-athletes but for people doing heavy lifting even higher ratios seem to work even better. The bodybuilder I was referring to uses up to 11:1 ratio and says it fully replaces his T injections without any difference, and in fact does not seem to suppress him. He has not done blood tests yet, but will do them in August and will post the results here.
Progesterone's blocking of muscle catabolism actually exceeds that of testosterone as it is a better/stronger GR antagonist than T. However, progesterone is considered catabolic hormone in men similar to T3 which really baffles me because I have not seen such effects from either. Both may have such effects in very high doses but in doses under 300mg progesterone, when combined with DHEA, seems to be remarkably anti-catabolic. T3 also has anti-cortisol effects and in lower doses it actually leads to decrease in fat and increase in muscle, partially due to thyrodi increasing androgen synthesis (especially the 5-AR derived ones).
I think his regimen is 5mg DHEA + 50mg progesterone, taken 3 times daily. He says that this removes any bloat that he used to get with T and that this combo feels equivalent to about 75mg injected T daily.

Any update on the blood test ? Im interested in the effect of such large dose progesterone on male (with DHEA). @haidut

 

[Mossy]

So, more progesterone (3:1 ratio or greater) is “pro-anabolic and testosterone-promotinug”, versus less (1:1 ratio)?

I guess the key is the ratio, because most reading says to use lower progesterone to prevent feminizing effects.

 

[Beastmode]

I'm starting with a 4:1 ratio (progesterone:dhea) daily.

I've been consistent with the calcium intake, protein, oysters, T3, vitamin d, etc so it'll be interesting what happens trying the above ratio.

I recall @haidut product pansterone was very androgenic when applied on the "boys!" I was lifting heavy at the time so the combo really jacked my muscles up.

This time I'm not lifting weights for a bit longer so I'll get to see what anabolic type effects the new combo will have on it's own supported by good rest and nutrition.

(41 year old male, 5'9, 180 lbs)

 

[Mossy]

I'm starting with a 4:1 ratio (progesterone:dhea) daily.

I've been consistent with the calcium intake, protein, oysters, T3, vitamin d, etc so it'll be interesting what happens trying the above ratio.

I recall @haidut product pansterone was very androgenic when applied on the "boys!" I was lifting heavy at the time so the combo really jacked my muscles up.

This time I'm not lifting weights for a bit longer so I'll get to see what anabolic type effects the new combo will have on it's own supported by good rest and nutrition.

(41 year old male, 5'9, 180 lbs)

I’m curious what your calcium source is. Do you supplement or just food? Also, do you feel the need to use more salt? I’ve taken this combo for the first time and it’s giving me what I would call low blood sugar and maybe dehydration issues. (From my limited understanding).

 

[Beastmode]

I’m curious what your calcium source is. Do you supplement or just food? Also, do you feel the need to use more salt? I’ve taken this combo for the first time and it’s giving me what I would call low blood sugar and maybe dehydration issues. (From my limited understanding).

Milk (4 cups on average,) parmesan reggaino (.5-1 oz) and sometimes yogurt and milk powder pancakes (over 500 I believe.)

I'm not sure why you're experiencing that, but without looking at the entire diet, it's hard to tell. Of course, where you are in your health is important to consider and how you got to where you are.

 

[Mossy]

Milk (4 cups on average,) parmesan reggaino (.5-1 oz) and sometimes yogurt and milk powder pancakes (over 500 I believe.)

I'm not sure why you're experiencing that, but without looking at the entire diet, it's hard to tell. Of course, where you are in your health is important to consider and how you got to where you are.

My calcium intake is very similar to yours: milk, cottage cheese, cheese, and half-and-half in pancakes. So, I’d guess my calcium intake is good, then. I’ll continue to look for other factors. Thanks for the info.

 

[Bart1]

I’ve been doing progesterone/DHEA for quite some time. First 8:1 then 3:1. First pretty high dosages lately been backing off. I was trying it for inhibiting muscle wasting/high cortisol. The reactions to it from day to day differ. Sometimes I feel more relaxed, sometimes I feel nothing. Probably some vitamins/mineral deficiencies are related to the succes or the unsuccessful use of this combination

i read somewhere that progesterone requires the liver to be able to detoxify estrogen, is this true?

 

[Beastmode]

I’ve been doing progesterone/DHEA for quite some time. First 8:1 then 3:1. First pretty high dosages lately been backing off. I was trying it for inhibiting muscle wasting/high cortisol. The reactions to it from day to day differ. Sometimes I feel more relaxed, sometimes I feel nothing. Probably some vitamins/mineral deficiencies are related to the succes or the unsuccessful use of this combination

i read somewhere that progesterone requires the liver to be able to detoxify estrogen, is this true?

Makes sense fundamentally as nothing is isolated in the system. If you're not eating enough protein, your liver can't remove the estrogen. Accumulated estrogen in the blood creates havoc and can inhibit progesterone production and/or the ratio of progesterone to estrogen.

I'm sure there's more to it, but whenever I ask or read a question now I always consider what has to happen overall for any "specific" thing to be possible (good or bad) in the body (i.e- detoxify estrogen.)

 

[Bart1]

Makes sense fundamentally as nothing is isolated in the system. If you're not eating enough protein, your liver can't remove the estrogen. Accumulated estrogen in the blood creates havoc and can inhibit progesterone production and/or the ratio of progesterone to estrogen.

I'm sure there's more to it, but whenever I ask or read a question now I always consider what has to happen overall for any "specific" thing to be possible (good or bad) in the body (i.e- detoxify estrogen.)

Interesting. I do take at least 80 grams of protein a day, but I also suspect low stomach acid production, so maybe the protein isn't entirely/properly digested.

 

[Beastmode]

Interesting. I do take at least 80 grams of protein a day, but I also suspect low stomach acid production, so maybe the protein isn't entirely/properly digested.

Assuming you're a man, I don't think 80 is enough. A bit subjective, but I and every guy I've chatted with around this doesn't feel right with that amount.

I feel best with at least 120 g per day, Ok over 100+, feels like something is missing under 100.

If you're doing any kind of exercising (i.e- weights,) you're definitely not eating enough.

 

[tankasnowgod]

For anyone interested in the original video-



The discussion on Progesterone + DHEA use starts at about 1:30, you may want to start at 1:25 as there is talk about using end point steroids, like Test and DHT, right beforehand.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I remember seeing this article by Lyle MacDonald a while ago-

Anabolic Steroids and Muscle Growth

One of the main points of the article is that steroids alone work better than training alone when it comes to muscle growth, and the two together are synergistic.

He cites these studies-

The effects of supraphysiologic doses of testosterone on muscle size and strength in normal men - PubMed

Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men - PubMed

Testosterone replacement increases fat-free mass and muscle size in hypogonadal men - PubMed

So, with no exercise, one long lasting dose of 600mg of Test per week added about 6.6 pounds of muscle in normal men over 10 weeks, and the same dose added about 17 pounds of muscle over 20 weeks. For hypogonadal men, 100mg of Test per week added 11 pounds of muscle over 10 weeks.

According to Haidut, his body builder friend said that 50mg Prog with 5mg DHEA 3 times a day was similar to 75 mg test. That would be about 525 mg a week, and approximates the studies Lyle MacDonald cited. The Prog/DHEA might work a little better, seeing as it's dosed more frequently.

Might it be possible for a hypogonadal man to make some insane gains (say, 20 pounds of muscle in ten weeks) with no training using progesterone and DHEA?

 

[S-VV]

I would love to believe its true, but I can't see a mechanistic pathway that equals the raw anabolic power of 75mg Test (a bit less accounting for Ester) to 150mg Prog + 9 mg DHEA. Even if DHEA had a similar affinity to the androgen receptor than testosterone, or if it fully converted to Test, thats still 9mg of direct androgenic activity. Progesterone as far as I know does not bind significantly to the AR.It does however antagonise the glucocorticoid receptor, and that could have strong anticatabolic properties, that would be anabolic in the setting of resistance training and/or caloric surplus.

 

[TheBeard]

I would love to believe its true, but I can't see a mechanistic pathway that equals the raw anabolic power of 75mg Test (a bit less accounting for Ester) to 150mg Prog + 9 mg DHEA. Even if DHEA had a similar affinity to the androgen receptor than testosterone, or if it fully converted to Test, thats still 9mg of direct androgenic activity. Progesterone as far as I know does not bind significantly to the AR.It does however antagonise the glucocorticoid receptor, and that could have strong anticatabolic properties, that would be anabolic in the setting of resistance training and/or caloric surplus.

I will add 10mg progesterone to my 50mg testosterone/day protocole and report whether anabolism is better.

 

[S-VV]

I will add 10mg progesterone to my 50mg testosterone/day protocole and report whether anabolism is better.

Thanks bro. Really appreciate your field reports

 

[tankasnowgod]

I would love to believe its true, but I can't see a mechanistic pathway that equals the raw anabolic power of 75mg Test (a bit less accounting for Ester) to 150mg Prog + 9 mg DHEA. Even if DHEA had a similar affinity to the androgen receptor than testosterone, or if it fully converted to Test, thats still 9mg of direct androgenic activity. Progesterone as far as I know does not bind significantly to the AR.It does however antagonise the glucocorticoid receptor, and that could have strong anticatabolic properties, that would be anabolic in the setting of resistance training and/or caloric surplus.

Progesterone might not be as "anabolic" as testosterone, but if you are looking at building muscle, it might not have much to do with "anabolism." Haidut posted before that building muscle might have a lot more to do with being "anti-catabolic."

Structural Requirements For An Optimal Anti-Catabolic Steroid

"My own personal experimentation with glucocorticoid antagonists like pregnenolone-16a-carbonitrile, RU486, progesterone, pregnenolone and DHEA led me to the theory that there is no such as anabolic hormones, only anticatabolic ones, and the "anabolic" effects from T and AAS are actually the result of their antagonism to cortisol (and potentially estrogen). An old study I found makes the same claim, and highlights the well-known fact that muscle contains almost exclusively glucocorticoid receptors (GR), while androgen receptors (AR) are mostly expressed in tissues like prostate, gonads, brain and skin. Thus, if a steroid if a steroid is found to have an "anabolic" effect in muscle that is due almost exclusively to antagonism of GR. Steroids with strong androgenic effects would also have anabolic effects but those would be secondary to GR antagonism and reserved mostly for tissues with high expression of AR - i.e. prostate, gonads, sex organs, brian, etc. This matches quite well the common knowledge that strong androgens are weakly anabolic for muscle but are highly anabolic for those tissues that express the AR. The studies I posted on androsterone's anabolism in kidney, heart, spleen, and thymus corroborate this theory further."

Progesterone Is As Anabolic For Muscle As Testosterone (in Women)

The Progesterone-like Action Of Testosterone And Other Androgens

I don't know if progesterone would ever make someone look like those "hulk" bodybuilders, but I don't think most people would want to. It might have some serious benefits to hypogonadal men (who might be in a state of mild chronic catabolism), and see benefits like the studies Lyle mentioned in his article.

Progesterone and DHEA are easier to obtain for most than Testosterone or other Anabolic Steroids, so it's easier to give something like this a run, if you want. Many people use DHEA in varying amounts, but I don't think many, even on this forum have used 50+mg of Prog a day for several weeks straight.

 

[Bart1]

Assuming you're a man, I don't think 80 is enough. A bit subjective, but I and every guy I've chatted with around this doesn't feel right with that amount.

I feel best with at least 120 g per day, Ok over 100+, feels like something is missing under 100.

If you're doing any kind of exercising (i.e- weights,) you're definitely not eating enough.

I suspect I have some liver damage from hemochromatosis, I'm trying to reverse it, but being hypo makes it very difficult. I can't handle too much protein. I get estrogenic effects from progesterone, so I think definitely if your liver is not functioning great and because of that for intance you lack proper vitamin A storage, maybe progesterone is not such a good idea. I could be wrong...