DHEA + Progesterone == Pro-anabolic, Testosterone-promoting?

[haidut]

And not everything anabolic is testosterone-promoting, I'd say.

Absolutely, the word "anabolism" should be replaced with anti-catabolism when it comes to muscles. All "anabolic" steroids are cortisol antagonists. The muscle mostly expresses GR and not much AR. Both have roles for muscle growth but GR is more important with AR playing role or decreasing myostatin expression. So, you can have highly anabolic steroid with very little androgenic effects. T is both a cortisol antagonist and AR agonist. Progesterone is an even more potent GR antagonist than T but less of a AR agonist. DHEA somehow amplifies P4 effects when it comes to muscle growth, which is not surprising since DHEA is also a cortisol antagonist and inhibits cortisol synthesis too.

 

[Tbone107]

Progesterone has a direct GR blocking effect while pregnenolone's anti-cortisol effects seem to be more indirect. Also, progesterone is only one step away from androstenedione and there is evidence that gonads may be able to convert P4 directly into T. My guess is that just like adding DHEA to pregnenolone makes it a whole different animal, the same happens when adding it to P4. There are studies showing DHEA increases steroidogenesis in the gonads, and this is why I posted the thread on raising serum androgens by applying pregnenolone, DHEA, etc on the scrotum. There is a chance a progesterone/DHEA combination may be even more effective when it comes to gonadal stimulation or maybe it is simply from blocking cortisol so well.

Appreciate the response Haidut, if I were to stick to pansterone and add supplemental preg. What do you think a good ratio to use is vs. the 1:1 for androgenic effects?

 

[haidut]

Yeah, it's probably nothing to do with anabolism, and everything to do with opposing cortisol.

Exactly. See my above. As you saw in that thread for optimal anticabolic steroids - almost the entire "anabolic" action of every steroid tested came down to opposing cortisol (when it comes to muscle at least). AR also has a role but more of a peripheral one by blocking myostatin.

 

[haidut]

Ehh — Beg to differ with the aforementioned claims. Not sure if this is totally relative, but low dose Dhea/ Progesterone virtually subtracted any muscle tone that I had, and I ate all day. It did ameliorate depression symptoms, save for when I stood before full length mirrors.

Try a higher ratio of progesteroneHEA. The effects are nothing like the lower ratio. Just as you said, the lower ratio seems to affect mood more than anything else but the higher ratio is remarkably anti-catabolic.

 

[haidut]

Forgot to add this for anybody else watching this thread - DHEA inhibits the pathways through which progesterone may convert to cortisol and also aldosterone. So, DHEA may be simply prolonging unchanged progesterone's half life, which allows it to exert its anticatabolic effects for much longer.

 

[haidut]

Appreciate the response Haidut, if I were to stick to pansterone and add supplemental preg. What do you think a good ratio to use is vs. the 1:1 for androgenic effects?

Ray used to recommend 100mg pregnenolone + 5mg/10mg DHEA daily to man who wrote to him they has issues with low androgens or gonadal function. So, I'd try 30mg-50mg pregnenolone for every 5mg DHEA.

 

[CLASH]

T3 is catabolic in bodybuilders...
Why?
Because they cut carbs and fats, do excess cardio and eat high protein diets while running very high doses of T3. I’ve seen threads of guys eating starvation diets (sub 2000kcal), working out 6 days a week and running 75mcg-100mcg of T3 to “cut” for a show. Plus diuretics, salt and water restriction, albeit not all at the same time but still, the process of getting stage ready for elite bodybuilders can be digusting physiologically.

With that much t3 and the overall context, the only thing the body can do is raise cortisol and catabolize tissues...

 

[tankasnowgod]

Absolutely, the word "anabolism" should be replaced with anti-catabolism when it comes to muscles. All "anabolic" steroids are cortisol antagonists. The muscle mostly expresses GR and not much AR. Both have roles for muscle growth but GR is more important with AR playing role or decreasing myostatin expression. So, you can have highly anabolic steroid with very little androgenic effects. T is both a cortisol antagonist and AR agonist. Progesterone is an even more potent GR antagonist than T but less of a AR agonist. DHEA somehow amplifies P4 effects when it comes to muscle growth, which is not surprising since DHEA is also a cortisol antagonist and inhibits cortisol synthesis too.

This is probably the most key distinction when it comes to all of the youth associated hormones that Peat talks about, and the "anabolic" hormones and steroids that are so popular with bodybuilders. Read and re-read what Haidut wrote in this quote, and do the same to this thread, which goes even more in depth to the concept- Structural Requirements For An Optimal Anti-Catabolic Steroid

For me, really getting the distinction between "anabolic" and "anti-catabolic" was massive. I used to think it was one of and the same (and clearly, there is some overlap), but when you dig into it..... they are different things. I think this is a massive sticking point for 90% of people on this forum, and 99.9% of people outside of the forum. The other key (for me) was understanding how topical application works, and applying topically in places that don't easily get rubbed off.

 

[Orangeyouglad]

I love DHEA, especially combined with progesterone, but why does it make my hair fall out?

This! I've tried both LE Pregnenolone and Haidut's Pansterone (Dhea/ Progesterone) but have crazy increased shedding on both. I get this "tightness" in my scalp where it literally feels like there is a blood flow issue, or tension, or something. I haven't been able to figure it out. This is the same thing that happens to me when I've tried smoking marijuana.

Dhea/ Progesterone gave me a very calm and relaxed state that I enjoyed, but libido tanked.

 

[xetawaves]

This! I've tried both LE Pregnenolone and Haidut's Pansterone (Dhea/ Progesterone) but have crazy increased shedding on both. I get this "tightness" in my scalp where it literally feels like there is a blood flow issue, or tension, or something. I haven't been able to figure it out. This is the same thing that happens to me when I've tried smoking marijuana.

Dhea/ Progesterone gave me a very calm and relaxed state that I enjoyed, but libido tanked.

Pregnenolone makes me shed a lot too. I know the feeling you're referring too. Scalp inflammation. Feels like the skin is thick and has hardened or something.

 

[nbznj]

The talk above GR and AR is why primo is probably the best steroid out there, for those who are into bodybuilding. Check out the pdf below; table 1 shows that Primo disrupts Cortisol metabolism the least, the second being DHEA and the third being Proviron. So we’ve got AR activation, less GR, normal MR = theoretically no side effects.

I’m guessing high preg or prog + low dhea + low proviron could be an interesting stack. If I ever wanted to dabble with steroids again I wouldn’t cheap out and run TRT+Primo. That’s it

https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/85222327.pdf

 

[Jing]

If only progesterone didn't make my flaccid penis shrink up would be such a good thing to use.

 

[shine]

Appreciate the response Haidut, if I were to stick to pansterone and add supplemental preg. What do you think a good ratio to use is vs. the 1:1 for androgenic effects?

I am having great effects with 30mg pregnenolone orally after waking up, 15mg orally in the afternoon and 2 drops pansterone on scrotum between the two oral doses of pregnenolone.

When I took a 50mg capsule pregnenolone in the morning I often felt numb, which is why I split the doses.

 

[ecstatichamster]

If only progesterone didn't make my flaccid penis shrink up would be such a good thing to use.

I used to experience this with pregnenolone and progesterone (especially progesterone.) But no longer. I often use several drops of Progest-E and lately have been taking 300mg of pregnenolone a day, and no penis problems at all.

I suspect estrogen is first flushed out of cells when you take progesterone. If you take a lot of it, the estrogen is flushed away and from then on you’re more or less golden.

 

[Jing]

I used to experience this with pregnenolone and progesterone (especially progesterone.) But no longer. I often use several drops of Progest-E and lately have been taking 300mg of pregnenolone a day, and no penis problems at all.

I suspect estrogen is first flushed out of cells when you take progesterone. If you take a lot of it, the estrogen is flushed away and from then on you’re more or less golden.

Maybe I will try it again one day.

 

[Tbone107]

I am having great effects with 30mg pregnenolone orally after waking up, 15mg orally in the afternoon and 2 drops pansterone on scrotum between the two oral doses of pregnenolone.

When I took a 50mg capsule pregnenolone in the morning I often felt numb, which is why I split the doses.

Physically or mentally numb?

 

[vulture]

Interesting thread, but again, I would love to see more numbers and experiments.
How many extra strength and muscle you gained in two months?

 

[haidut]

I’m guessing high preg or prog + low dhea + low proviron could be an interesting stack

Thanks, good study. I had not seen this link but the steroid combo you mention is pretty much what I proposed in my post from a few years ago - i.e. progesterone, DHEA and DHT combination. Btw, since Proviron also gets inactivated relatively quickly, better DHT-derived alternatives would probably be Drostanolone and maybe Stenbolone.
Structural Requirements For An Optimal Anti-Catabolic Steroid

 

[haidut]

Interesting thread, but again, I would love to see more numbers and experiments.
How many extra strength and muscle you gained in two months?

Absolutely, I want numbers too. Trying to get him to do blood work in August and see what the results would be.

 

[ubiety]

I used to experience this with pregnenolone and progesterone (especially progesterone.) But no longer. I often use several drops of Progest-E and lately have been taking 300mg of pregnenolone a day, and no penis problems at all.

I suspect estrogen is first flushed out of cells when you take progesterone. If you take a lot of it, the estrogen is flushed away and from then on you’re more or less golden.

Interesting, how much DHEA do you take with it, and do you divide the doses? I tried 100mg preg with 5 dhea for a few days and felt off so I stopped. I may retry it for longer. TIA