CO2 "therapy" As The Primary Strategy

[Philomath]

All signs point to CO2

I know this may seem basic to some, but if you read between the lines, it seems that Dr. Peat is implying that raising CO2 levels is the single most important thing you can do:
- improve thyroid function = increased CO2
- decrease PUFU=improved metabolism= increased CO2
- increased sugar consumption = increased CO2
- increased good protein = improved T4/T3 conversion= improved metabolism= increased CO2
- uncoupled mitochondria = improved metabolism= increased CO2

So it seems clear to me that everything Dr. Peat teaches leads back to the increase of CO2. So why doesn't Dr. Peat emphasize carbon dioxide "therapy" even more?
Is it because anything beyond bag breathing, living at elevation or sitting in a co2 filled bag may be considered too risky or impractical?
Wouldn't consistently breathing an O2 and
5-6% Co2 mix (firemans/carbogen) be the most efficient way to increase your overall blood co2 levels?
I'm not discounting the aforementioned strategies as they're certainly important for long term health. However, why not start with a full on co2 barrage? Wouldn't the other strategies like reducing PUFA or eliminating toxins be amplified by having higher CO2 levels? Wouldn't deficiencies be exposed quicker?
It would be interesting to know.

 

[you]

Yup, Peat loves his co2!

Is it because anything beyond bag breathing, living at elevation or sitting in a co2 filled bag may be considered too risky or impractical?

It seems so.

 

[Blossom]

I think it's a very insightful observation Philomath. There have been several discussions on this topic and I know some forum members have inhaled CO2 gas directly. I've never read of Peat recommending this but he did respond to a forum members question about the possible dangers of inhaling large amounts by pointing out that it could irritate the airway (not a direct quote). I contemplated experimenting with 1-2 liters per minute early on but as my own CO2 production increased I decided against it only because I felt my levels were good.
I personally wouldn't use carbogen for the purpose of increasing CO2 because of the greater than 90% oxygen content. I do wish it was used more in hospitals.
In the U.S. OSHA has guidelines on what they consider the safe limits on CO2 exposure. They consider CO2 a poisonous gas though so I wouldn't be surprised if the research was a bit biased.
My current feeling on the topic is that it is probably safest to boost our bodies own natural production so we have time to gradually adjust.
Hopefully some people who have tried inhaling the CO2 gas will share their experiences.

 

[tara]

Interesting question.
It looks to me like:

Increasing CO2 is of critical importance. It is crucial in many systems - respiratory, nervous, digestive, skeletal, wound healing, etc.

Increasing CO2 in general circulation can help in many ways. Bag breathing, absorption through the skin, various reduced breathing exercises can all be very significant ways to improve metabolism and resolve or improve many issues for some people. I reckon they can probably be important tactics for improving metabolism, as long as appropriate precautions are observed. There are probably exceptions, though, for people with some kinds of conditions, eg lungs that have trouble with the gas exchange already. Inhaling CO2 enriched air seems like it could be useful in some contexts, but to be used with care, as there are risks.

As I understand Peat, there are some special functions that CO2 performs specifically when it is produced in the cell and then exits the cell - the streaming directional flow of it is also important, and this is not directly produced by supplementing CO2.

Increasing CO2 tends to acidify the system. If the system is already too acid, this can cause problems. I think calcium and other alkaline minerals are probably key. Also carbohydrates - revving up metabolism without adequate fuel seems fuel seems fraught to me.

Making sure all the other nutrient needs are also met is important - supplementing CO2 alone is unlikely to fix everything if diet etc are seriously inadequate.

High O2 with 5-6% CO2 would probably be way too much O2 for most people most of the time. 5-6% CO2 might be good for some people some of the time, but I would think it might be too much for some, and that monitoring would be necessary to make it safe for most people, because you can get too much CO2, and if you do you might not be in a state to stop it yourself. Rapid increase in CO2 can cause bad reactions in some people.
In an emergency hospital setting, carbogen seems a lot safer than pure oxygen.
I'm not sure that having deficiencies exposed quicker would be a good thing. Deficiencies seem to have to get quite severe before they become obvious. Better to try to avoid them by supplying good nutrition, I'd have thought?

There are some studies and some anecdotes on the effectiveness of Buteyko method. Buteyko focussed on CO2 centrally, but also had diet and lifestyle guidelines that he considered an important part of the method.

 

[RPDiciple]

increased CO2 should be the end result, so you cant just skip all the steps to get there since your body will not be able to tolerate it.

You have to work yourself to perform at top level, you cant just show up at the olympics.

 

[honeybee]

I agree somewhat..but I've lived at 5000 ft elevation for 16 years and I still feel physically and mentally best when I am at sea level near saltwater.

 

[Philomath]

increased CO2 should be the end result, so you cant just skip all the steps to get there since your body will not be able to tolerate it.

You have to work yourself to perform at top level, you cant just show up at the olympics.

RPD,
I don't recall Dr. Peat mentioning a sequential process. He seems to advocate getting CO2 (artificially) in any way, at any time.

 

[Philomath]

High O2 with 5-6% CO2 would probably be way too much O2 for most people most of the time. 5-6% CO2 might be good for some people some of the time, but I would think it might be too much for some, and that monitoring would be necessary to make it safe for most people, because you can get too much CO2, and if you do you might not be in a state to stop it yourself. Rapid increase in CO2 can cause bad reactions in some people.
In an emergency hospital setting, carbogen seems a lot safer than pure oxygen.

I personally wouldn't use carbogen for the purpose of increasing CO2 because of the greater than 90% oxygen content. I do wish it was used more in hospitals.

Tara/Blossom, you're probably right about the O2 danger (makes me think about that crazy oxygen bar craze )
Perhaps a better method would be a modified SCUBA system. If I'm not mistaken, the tanks are typically filled with filtered and compressed air. Standard air with added CO2 (6% or less) would probably be safe. Not something I'll be able to try anytime soon but in theory....

 

[tara]

increased CO2 should be the end result, so you cant just skip all the steps to get there since your body will not be able to tolerate it.

You have to work yourself to perform at top level, you cant just show up at the olympics.

RPD,
I don't recall Dr. Peat mentioning a sequential process. He seems to advocate getting CO2 (artificially) in any way, at any time.

I think RPD is right; raising the CO2 set point is a gradual process. Trying to force it too fast can result in undesirable stress.
I don't think Peat advocated breathing CO2 enriched air as a general thing for everybody.

Bag breathing I think he recommends doing several times a day, but only briefly - stop as soon as it gets uncomfortable. I would expect this to result in a gradual long term increase in the CO2 set point if other factors are favourable.

IIRC the studies and medical outfits that have used dry CO2 baths have found improvements with treatment a few times a week for a few weeks. I haven't done it often enough to be able to report myself.

 

[Philomath]

Naturally, everyone is different and therefore should proceed at different paces. That said, is it possible that bag breathing - three, five or ten times a day may not be enough for some/most? I believe Haidut wrote that with some vitamin deficiencies, mega dosing is the only way to compensate as food or RDA(s) alone cannot bridge the gap. Couldn't that be the same with CO2?

 

[tara]

You can't just supplement CO2 up to the limit you theoretically think would be good and expect it to stay there. You get short term benefits by supplementing or actively reducing losses. But to get long-term gains you have to raise the set point. I'm sure there is variation in what it takes to raise the set point, and it probably has to do with many of the factors we discuss in the rest of the forum. Eg how well we can reduce the need for adrenaline, since adrenaline tends to stimulate hyperventilation. And what our mineral status and pH are, how steady you can keep your blood sugar. And what our accumulated and circulating PUFA levels are like, etc.

If you want to make it go faster, I would guess you can try to optimise all the other conditions, and then practice bag-breathing, or reduced breathing, or supplementary CO2 inhalation, or dry CO2 bath as much as possible to gt the set point up, and then keep doing it often to maintain the higher set point. I think VoS, who promoted and said he practiced supplementary CO2 inhalation, said he had to keep it up a lot of the time, or the benefitial effects wore off again fairly quickly.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that CO2 is a centrally important parameter that is worth trying to optimise. I just don't believe there is a single instant fix for most people.

 

[Blossom]

Our body does tightly regulate CO2 levels by blowing off via the lungs whatever it deems unnecessary (unless one has some forms of lung disease). I think that is why long term it is best to optimize metabolism by which our body will actually produce more CO2. Bag breathing and such did seem to help me in the beginning until my thyroid levels improved.

 

[tara]

As I understand Peat, there are some special functions that CO2 performs specifically when it is produced in the cell and then exits the cell - the streaming directional flow of it is also important, and this is not directly produced by supplementing CO2.

Came across some detail on this in a recently transcribed interview (thanks moss and Sheila):

At the same time that the cell is regulating its salt and ion balance by having the right amount of CO2, it’s producing a steady stream of CO2 flowing out of the cell into the blood and as it leaves the mitochondrion, it reacts with water forming carbonic acid. And the carbonic acid has a negative charge so as it flows out of the cell, it drags along positive ions with it in this case, calcium and sodium are constantly flowing out of the cell just because of the flow of CO2 and, as we exhale that carbonic acid in the blood, is constantly changing back into CO2 – which leaves in the lungs and that leaves these calcium and sodium ions stranded in the blood as the C02 leaves them – that accounts for the blood having a more alkaline test pH equivalent than the inside of the cell. Then the kidneys finish keeping the balance again, by adjusting the change between C02 and carbonic acid allowing the kidneys to select in one direction or the other these ions.

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=6463

 

[ken]

Ray Peat says somewhere, maybe in he Bud Weiss video, that increasing co2 by whatever means brings into being more mitochondria. Then, given sufficient nutrients, the whole energy production level is raised.

 

[tomisonbottom]

I've got a co2 tank and breathed some in just now for the last hour or so, and I love the way it makes me feel. Great energy and mood. Not actually sure how safe it is, but I know the prescriptions my Dr. is happy to push on me aren't safe, so I just go by symptoms. For me, symptoms seem to be the best way to see what's best.

I don't use a mask so some of the Co2 I'm sure escapes, but I can tell I'm getting a good amount of it despite that.

Is anyone else breathing in supplemental Co2?

 

[gilbert90]

If you want to know everything about how to increase Co2 and ways to not lose too much Co2 I would suggest checking out www.normalbreathing.com , I know he recommends endurance training with nosebreathing only... I actually tried running with a training mask (simulates high altitude)...It was so hard to do..but it increased my Co2 levels ofc. This was before I knew about the effects of lactic acid though..

I asked Artour (the man behind the website) and he said that its pretty much impossible to correct breathing and get normal Co2 levels with breahthing exercises if you've got hypothyroidism. So you need thyroid, diet and so on, there is no quickfix. But he's got some interesting tips how to not lose too much Co2 from things like overeating, overheating, slouching, mouthbreathing ect, anything that causes u to hyperventilate. So check it out.

 

[Vinero]

Would red light help to increase CO2?

 

[ecstatichamster]

I've got a co2 tank and breathed some in just now for the last hour or so, and I love the way it makes me feel. Great energy and mood. Not actually sure how safe it is, but I know the prescriptions my Dr. is happy to push on me aren't safe, so I just go by symptoms. For me, symptoms seem to be the best way to see what's best.

I don't use a mask so some of the Co2 I'm sure escapes, but I can tell I'm getting a good amount of it despite that.

Is anyone else breathing in supplemental Co2?

What’s your set up like.

 

[tomisonbottom]

What’s your set up like.

I just got a c02 tank online and took it to the local paintball shop and they filled it with co2.
I have an attached cannula that goes into my nostrils and sometimes use a mask for more intensity.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I just got a c02 tank online and took it to the local paintball shop and they filled it with co2.
I have an attached cannula that goes into my nostrils and sometimes use a mask for more intensity.

Thank you