Miracle CO2 delivery concoction.

[Such_Saturation]

My father has this obstructive, chronically awakening snoring. What are the options besides acetazolamide, and what are the best things to say to have it prescribed?

Mittir posted about a friend or relative being cured of sleep apnea by simply bag breathing.

Good luck getting him to do it

 

[visionofstrength]

My father has this obstructive, chronically awakening snoring. What are the options besides acetazolamide, and what are the best things to say to have it prescribed?

Mittir posted about a friend or relative being cured of sleep apnea by simply bag breathing.

Good luck getting him to do it

Haha, I have an Italian mother, so I feel your pain!

I've been having luck with family and friends getting them to try frequent, but very small doses of dessicated thyroid (1 grain), progesterone (three drops) and DHEA (5 mg), and niacinamide (250 mg). Maybe because it's such a small amount, it seems to bypass all the brainwashing they've been subjected to. So far, they seem to be OK doing this at bedtime and breakfast, and often at lunch and dinner.

Peat thinks these things are "redox balancers" that work by increasing CO2 internally, and so they can remedy the effects of CO2 deficiency, such as apnea. (You're right, acetazolamide may work, too, but shouldn't be used in the long-term, and its efficacy wears off anyway after about 3-6 months.)

 

[Such_Saturation]

None of those things are acceptable to an old male. If anything the pill would help to break the ice. So, either that (a medication for blood pressure which might help your snoring) or some kind of face-applied machinery (which SURELY works because it's machinery).

 

[Blossom]

None of those things are acceptable to an old male. If anything the pill would help to break the ice. So, either that (a medication for blood pressure which might help your snoring) or some kind of face-applied machinery (which SURELY works because it's machinery).

I understand, I see it every day.

 

[visionofstrength]

None of those things are acceptable to an old male. If anything the pill would help to break the ice. So, either that (a medication for blood pressure which might help your snoring) or some kind of face-applied machinery (which SURELY works because it's machinery).

Oh I see what you mean, brilliant! It's the Trojan Horse!

In the US it's easy to get a prescription for an apnea machine, abbreviated CPAP. The downside is that they usually contain oxygen (bad!), not the 4-5% CO2 and room air which is Peaty. I have a variety of CPAP face masks that I test out with my CO2 delivery, and they work great.

 

[Blossom]

None of those things are acceptable to an old male. If anything the pill would help to break the ice. So, either that (a medication for blood pressure which might help your snoring) or some kind of face-applied machinery (which SURELY works because it's machinery).

I understand, I see it every day.

The non-peaty conventional medical route would be for him to have an overnight polysomnography test (OPSG). After that a CPAP or BIPAP is prescribed according to the results as mentioned by VoS. An upside to this is after going through this ordeal he may decide a few supplements and/or bag breathing isn't so bad.

 

[Such_Saturation]

None of those things are acceptable to an old male. If anything the pill would help to break the ice. So, either that (a medication for blood pressure which might help your snoring) or some kind of face-applied machinery (which SURELY works because it's machinery).

I understand, I see it every day.

The non-peaty conventional medical route would be for him to have an overnight polysomnography test (OPSG). After that a CPAP or BIPAP is prescribed according to the results as mentioned by VoS. An upside to this is after going through this ordeal he may decide a few supplements and/or bag breathing isn't so bad.

He ain't got no time for doctors either

 

[tara]

My father has this obstructive, chronically awakening snoring. What are the options besides acetazolamide, and what are the best things to say to have it prescribed?

First and simplest thing I'd try, if you can persuade him to give it a go, is to mechanicalyl keep his mouth closed at night with either a chin strap or a little tape. Night-time hyperventilation is very common, and mouth-breathing makes it almost inevitable.

I think the chin straps are sold to go with CPAPs. There are many brands; here is one: http://www.amazon.com/LEGEND-MEDICAL--- ... chin+strap. I have not tried this myself because I have been happy with tape.

I smear a bit of grease, eg butter or cocoa butter round my lips and mouth so it doesn't rip the skin when I take it off in the morning, and use about 2x3cm down the middle of my lips. I can still take extra air in from the side if I need to, and talk, with this in place. I don't normally snore much unless I have a cold, but this improved my breathing, sleep, and sense of calm noticably.

It can sound scary and unpleasant, but it is easy to remove if there are any panicky feelings of air hunger, and it feels very calming to me.

If he says he can't breath through his mouth because his nose is blocked (common complaint), you can try getting him to experiment with holding his breath and see if it his nose clears. Hyperventilation (which happens with mouth breathing) tends to cause the nasal passages to swell and produce more mucous. This can often be reversed in a couple of minutes by holding one's breath once or thrice, or just forcing the mouth to stay closed until the CO2 goes up high enough to open the nose again. It can feel briefly uncomfortable, but much better once the nasal breathing is re-established. I was surprised to find this worked for me even with a nose horribly congested with a cold, and I think it helps recover from the the colds faster, too.

If he only snores when he lies on his back, then switching to side-lying may help. This can be assisted by a judicious pillow behind the back, or something tied onto his back or sewn into back of pyjamas that prevents him from rolling onto his back while he sleeps. I haven't tried these techniques because I habitually sleep on my side anyway - just read about them.

But of course it depends on him being willing to give it a go - good luck.

 

[gummybear]

My father has this obstructive, chronically awakening snoring. What are the options besides acetazolamide, and what are the best things to say to have it prescribed?

First and simplest thing I'd try, if you can persuade him to give it a go, is to mechanicalyl keep his mouth closed at night with either a chin strap or a little tape. Night-time hyperventilation is very common, and mouth-breathing makes it almost inevitable.

I think the chin straps are sold to go with CPAPs. There are many brands; here is one: http://www.amazon.com/LEGEND-MEDICAL--- ... chin+strap. I have not tried this myself because I have been happy with tape.

I smear a bit of grease, eg butter or cocoa butter round my lips and mouth so it doesn't rip the skin when I take it off in the morning, and use about 2x3cm down the middle of my lips. I can still take extra air in from the side if I need to, and talk, with this in place. I don't normally snore much unless I have a cold, but this improved my breathing, sleep, and sense of calm noticably.

It can sound scary and unpleasant, but it is easy to remove if there are any panicky feelings of air hunger, and it feels very calming to me.

If he says he can't breath through his mouth because his nose is blocked (common complaint), you can try getting him to experiment with holding his breath and see if it his nose clears. Hyperventilation (which happens with mouth breathing) tends to cause the nasal passages to swell and produce more mucous. This can often be reversed in a couple of minutes by holding one's breath once or thrice, or just forcing the mouth to stay closed until the CO2 goes up high enough to open the nose again. It can feel briefly uncomfortable, but much better once the nasal breathing is re-established. I was surprised to find this worked for me even with a nose horribly congested with a cold, and I think it helps recover from the the colds faster, too.

If he only snores when he lies on his back, then switching to side-lying may help. This can be assisted by a judicious pillow behind the back, or something tied onto his back or sewn into back of pyjamas that prevents him from rolling onto his back while he sleeps. I haven't tried these techniques because I habitually sleep on my side anyway - just read about them.

But of course it depends on him being willing to give it a go - good luck.

I got so inspired by this post so I decided to put tape on my mouth and Went to bed. Felt a bit claustrofobic I ain't gonna lie but after a while I got used to it. I feel calmer today. Does it matter what tape one uses? I used office tape (Think it was scotch tape or something), or is it better with Medical tape?

 

[tara]

I got so inspired by this post so I decided to put tape on my mouth and Went to bed. Felt a bit claustrofobic I ain't gonna lie but after a while I got used to it. I feel calmer today. Does it matter what tape one uses? I used office tape (Think it was scotch tape or something), or is it better with Medical tape?

I like it when people try this and report the effects. Thanks. Out of curiosity, if you tend to snore, did you notice if this helped?
I don't know if the kind of tape matters. I guess it depends whether tape not designed for prolonged skin contact gives off any unhelpful substances. If it smells dodgy or irritates the skin, that would be a clue. Grease should help protect the skin. I imagine you'd notice if you were inhaling a strong unpleasant odor.

 

[Kenobi]

Why would radiation get higher with GCC? Why would methane disrupt living things? And why would GHG cause greater environmental damage?

The temperature is far from unliveable. There is still a whole uninhabited continent, in case the temperature changed so much. Even if it did get so hot, species could adapt, especially because GCC is so slow.

Lizards, for instance, already have a devolved variation of the back sails dinosaurs had. To adapt to the hotter climate, all that would be required would be not a whole new characteristic, but simply bigger versions of what they already have on their backs. The "sails" are thin and designed to flow blood through them to cool it, and send it back into the body for additional heat removal.

From what I have read, even humans have heat adaptions. The doctors who studied histamine and methylation noticed that people with high histamine and low methylation had higher metabolisms, and different physical characteristics. They had larger ears, noses, and longer fingers and toes presumably to get rid of the heat better. They also had less bodyhair. On the other hand, the people with low histamine and high methylation had slow metabolisms. They had the opposite pattern, small ears, noses, and stubby fingers and toes, along with high bodyhair. Obviously the ones with high metabolism were normally underweight, and the ones with low metabolism were normally overweight.

Humans could adapt to the hotter climate by taking on physical characteristics of people with high histamine/low methylation which allow for heat removal. It's not so far-fetched. We also carry a load of bodyfat which warms us. We are maybe at bare minimum 3-8% bodyfat. Monkeys carry no or nearly no bodyfat. One could say it would be bad because it provides defense against starvation, but by that time, there is enough CO2 that the size and quantity of plants and animals would be more than enough to provide food. So there is not only bodyfat, a huge factor, but when that is gone, there is also other ways for the human organism to dissipate heat. That's why I think extinction of humans and animals due to heat is a faulty concept. We have easily changeable factors that allow us to adapt to heat.

 

[Such_Saturation]

But how do you adapt to depletion of fresh water, extreme weather and cold spells, desertification and higher aggressiveness?

 

[tara]

I've split out the off-topic posts on atmospheric CO2 and global climate change to a new thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5180

 

[Such_Saturation]

I've split out the off-topic posts on atmospheric CO2 and global climate change to a new thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5180

Sorry for that

 

[Memma]

The discussions about CO2 respiration and the expected benefits make lots of sense especially for one like me who deliberately avoids the scientific literature. My eyes glaze over when I read those and I rely on this forum to reduce it down to regular jargon. I tried the gelatin-baking soda concoction and felt nothing except the serious urge to throw up. My next move is to obtain a CO2 delivery system but questions still linger about its proper use. There was mention a while back about a CO2 delivery method developed in the 1940s without any specifics. However, the lack of explicit guidance on proper CO2 respiration makes any individual attempt to perform the exercise fraught with hidden dangers.
My questions to the forum are: what are the fail safe methods of taking CO2 directly from the tank using a regulator? Is a CO2 water carbonation system separate from one intended for respiration? Is it possible to hook up a CPAP machine to the CO2 tank and how can this be accomplished? Is it safe for a novice to strap a CO2 face mask on without some kind of active supervision?
I am quite fortunate to live close to an outfit that can assemble a CO2 tank with all the necessary accessories including dual regulators and hose attachments. I also own a CPAP machine that I would like to adapt to this application, if possible. I am open to any innovative thoughts regarding my objectives and propositions. Thanks for taking the time to read this post.

 

[tara]

However, the lack of explicit guidance on proper CO2 respiration makes any individual attempt to perform the exercise fraught with hidden dangers.
My questions to the forum are: what are the fail safe methods of taking CO2 directly from the tank using a regulator? Is a CO2 water carbonation system separate from one intended for respiration? Is it possible to hook up a CPAP machine to the CO2 tank and how can this be accomplished? Is it safe for a novice to strap a CO2 face mask on without some kind of active supervision?

Hi Memma,
I can't describe a detailed procedure. I'll just address possible dangers. Not all from Peat (some from normalbreathing.com).

Unlike other more tested methods of increasing CO2, eg pranayama, Buteyko, thyroid supplementation, if you try direct CO2 from a tank (very dilute), as far as i can tell you are near the leading edge of experimentation, and therefore 'failsafe' does not apply. I don't think that means no-one should try it, just be aware that it is experimental, and if you are willing to take the chance, take suitable precautions and start at a low level. Peat has not recommended such procedures in general, though he has mentioned examples of people in some kinds of extreme distress who were helped by inhaling higher than usual CO2 for a short time. I think it is likely that there may be benefit for some people in some conditions from some amount of extra inhaled CO2.

The possible risks i am aware of include:

Accidentally inhaling too much CO2, and losing consciousness before you can stop the supply. If you continue to overwhelmed by too much CO2 while unconscious, it could potentially go badly. Asphyxiation would be one extreme posssible outcome. Blossom mentioned the possibility of messing up (or stopping) the respiratory drive, aso potentially catastrophic. I think you can mitigate these risks by using a delivery mask that is held in place manually, rather than strapped on, so that it falls off if you lose control. This especially applies when you start experimenting, or if you want to later increase the CO2 levels.

Apparently people prone to migraines and panic attacks can have these triggered by a sudden increase in blood CO2 levels from Buteyko-style reduced breathing exercises. It is possible that a similar risk might apply to a similar CO2 rise from a tank. I'm not aware that this has been either demonstrated or ruled out, I just think it is a possibility for people with these susceptibilities. If you have these particular vulnerabilities, I guess you can assess whether/when you are prepared to take the risk. I would expect the risk to be reduced by starting out at a low level of supplementation.

Increasing blood CO2 levels affects system pH, which could potentially have effects in various systems. I would expect you could mitigate this risk by monitoring average UpH every day (eg before lunch, not first thing in the morning). If it tends to be alkaline (eg UpH >7), I would guess that the acidifying effect of higher CO2 levels might be more helpful. If you are on the acid side already (eg UpH <6.2), then I would expect it might cause some problems. I think that increasing my intake of alkaline minerales, including calcium carbonate and mag glycinate, may have shifted me from slightly too acid into a better range. I speculate that this may have something to do with my improved breathing (along with other factors). I think VoS was recommending mag bicarbonate, which might have a similar effect on pH.
There are some particular risks for people with diabetes, which I suspect might partly have to do with acidity. If you have diabetes, or tendencies in that direction, I would recommend reading the notes on normalbreathing.com.

A sudden improvement in oxygen supply can stimulate a rapid increase in peristalsis. If you have a lot of food in your gut, especially had or fibrous food, that can apparently damage the gut lining (from normalbreathing.com). Mitigation: practice without tough food in stomach.

There is a definite chance of increased sugar oxidation. This is generally a good thing, but it does increase the need for sugar. If blood sugar drops too low too fast, that can cause stress. Mitigation: fuel up and have reserve fuel at hand. (use easily digested fuel - see previous point). If it has the desired effect of improving metabolism, that can increase the requirements for all nutrients. If there are deficiencies, increasing metabolism is likely to deepen them. Mitigation: check your diet against cronometer, and check you are meeting mineral and vitamin needs generously.

Because it has not been much studied, there may well be other risks that noone has considered yet.

There is not body of research that I am aware of indicating how long it is safe to practice at a go. I think VoS sleeps with his on, and estimates a higher level of CO2. He seems to be thriving. That seems to indicate it may be helpful for some people. It doesn't prove it's safe for everyone. There is some evidence that CO2 set points can be increased by regular practice of periods of the order of 20 mins. People report improvements from bag-breathing regularly for 1-2 mins at a time. You should be able to tell it is having a positive effect on energy production if your extremities get warmer.

In general, I would think you can improve the risk:benefit ratio by having someone else around who will notice if you have a problem, and by keeping the level of added CO2 low enough that it does not cause heavy breathing (this last was from Peat), and at least initially, limiting session length. Your personal limits may differ from others. Normal atmospheric CO2 is of the order of .04%. I would recommend starting below 1% supplementation, with conscious control. You may be able to increase from there.

If you decide to go ahead and try it, you may find that after a while you are more confident about the effects on your particular body, and have a better idea of what is workable for your system.

If you haven't already done this, I'd recommend starting out by assessing your current breathing. If you currently have habits of mouth-breathing and/or chest-breathing, you can make significant improvements by retraining these. A chin-strap, as commonly used with CPAP machines (or a little tape), can more easily keep your mouth closed at night, if you don't already have this habit.

 

[natedawggh]

I tried the gelatin-baking soda concoction and felt nothing except the serious urge to throw up.

That sounds totally gross. Using carbonated water & OJ or soda (ROOT BEER), is so delicious, and the effects last quite a few hours for me.

Yeah, breathing CO2 is pretty easy to tell when you get too much. I use a soda stream sometimes to pump a little into a bag and then breath that... if its too strong I get dizzy and my lungs panic, but with just a little I get a very relaxing sensation. You cannot overdo it at all without knowing immediately. I do think it would be unwise to plug it into a CMAP and then turn it on high, but if you start with an infinitesimal trickle, you should not have any problems (and hold it to your face, instead of strapping it).

 

[Memma]

Tara,
Thanks for taking the time to provide me such a comprehensive tutorial of what to expect when starting CO2 therapy. Nothing good comes easy but human nature often looks for the easiest and the most direct paths. The appeal of the CO2 tank is the minimal effort involved when active training in prayanama or the Buteyko method may offer more lasting benefits. Nevertheless, I think it is desirable at some level to adopt a multi-pronged approach to addressing issues with indeterminate outcomes. The takeaways for me here are the guideposts that may indicate the need for extreme caution. I would never have been aware of the risks of sugar oxidation, increased peristalsis or even messing up the respiratory drive. One could almost get the bends without ever stepping foot under water . Anyway, thanks for your very lucid post.

 

[loess]

tara, that's a really good post. What happened to our little thumbs up rating button? :)

I've started with the CO2 delivery from a small tank. So far, so good. I will reiterate what tara said about it increasing sugar oxidation. Very important or you will end up with a headache or other low-blood sugar symptoms. Anyway I am taking it slow and starting at a very low level of CO2, I hold the mask on with my hand (I don't strap it on).

My mom recently handed me down her Sodastream. Carbonated OJ is AWESOME.

 

[tara]

I'll just address possible dangers. ...

Just remembered another couple of situations possibly requiring caution with supplementary inhaled CO2 (from my memory of normalbreathing.com and a post of Blossom's a while ago).

Hyperventilation can be protective in the case of recent trauma to the head, because it restricts blood flow, and therefore can reduce blood loss and possibly concussion.
Therefore, I would not consider it safe to artificially raise CO2 levels after a blow to the head. I don't know how long that would apply for, but I'm guessing a couple of days if no symptoms of concussion or other damage reveal themselves, and possibly longer if they do.

Where there is damage to the lungs affecting their ventilation-perfusion functions, sometimes CO2 blood levels can be higher than normal (and O2 lower). In these conditions I wonder if there may be more harm than good done by additional CO2. I'm not sure how these conditions are named, but I wonder if COPD might be in this category?