Chronic Serotonin Toxicity? Need A Help!

[ginny-red]

Hello.. From experience anxiety is nearly always low blood sugar.... one reason why you wake in the morning even more anxious. You should not take tryptophan at all, Have you listened to Ray Peat on Tryptophan? And when you took the amino acids. did it have sugar with it? protein also lowers blood sugar if no sugar your body will make sugar via the stress cortisol response, ie dissolve your muscles to get the glucose it needs. remember protein also stimulates insulin so you should always have carbs with protein... what did you take with the amino acids? I suggest when you get the anxiety. have a huge, huge spoonful of sugar/ honey and see if your anxiety lifts. And I would wake yourself up in the night and have a salty Orange juice, even if you do not normally wake up, set your alarm. Your TSH is high, yes within the range, but the range is wrong, Dr peat says it should be as low as possible, ie 1 and under. But high cortisol raises TSH, so you need to get your stress down, and stress is also caused by low blood sugar . Do not be scared of eating sugar, stop ALL PUFAS and that includes your omega 3 , in fact eat NO fat for a while, there is NO essential fat, stop all the seeds, full of toxins and PUFAS, and the bugs like the insoluble fibre causes more serotonin, Eat the Ray Peat inspired carrot salad on youtube everyday, Drink more skimmed milk, blood calcium is strange, it could well mean you have a calcium deficiency not an excess, Dr Peat says you need around 2200 mg of Ca a day, around 2 quarts, you need 80 to 100 grams of protein a day, best from cheese, milk , eggs... ie low phosphate. No gluten, no pasta, the bad bugs Love those. start listening to Ray peat on Youtube it is all there... You do not want to have serotonin, it needs to be as low as possible. it is a primitive stress hormone, not the feel good hormone that mainstream tells you. The lower the better. Did they test your progesterone or estradiol? I would stop All your supplements. Dr Peat dislikes most, Get 4 oz of cooked liver down you every week, this sorts most of the vitamins. If you take loads of protein like that with out carbs you will suffer stress , which country are you in?

Hello, thank you for your reply.
Now I know that tryptophan is the worst amino acid, but it was before I read Ray Peat articles. Now I do not take any supplements with amino acids.
I didn't know that sugar is so important, I thought that sugar can increase serotonin. I must eat more sweets.
I'm taking birth control pills, so my progesteron and estradiol are close to zero.
Daily I'm taking Zinc 10mg, Cyproheptadine 1mg, Magnesium 50mg, Propranolol 15mg - I'd like to take Cypro for 2 weeks, then stay only on Propranolol.
What do you think about increasing GABA by nacinamide or Gotu Kola?

 

[ginny-red]

@André Luiz @Jerimy Brown @Constatine
Some update on me:
After all, Cypro and Propranolol were not helping and I'm taking Tianeptine (3 x 12,5mg) for 4 days and waiting for effects - my doc prescribed me it for my anxiety and feel of guilt.
Also I made some lab tests for celiac disease, fungus, parasites and bacterial flora in my gut and everything seems fine, I have only IBS but I think it's induced by stress (also my doc's words). Now I eat healthy but I do not avoid any food.
Still have mild/medium anxiety, severe feel of guilt, intrusive thoughts, stress a lot but have less muscle twitches (only sometimes), less headaches and sleep good. Also still have problem with lack of appetite.
13rd of May will be two months after SS but I'm still suffering from it.
Do you guys know something that I could add to Tianeptine for stress? Feel of guilt + induced stress are the worst now.
Maybe I should also wait for effects from Tianeptine, because sometimes it takes few weeks for antidepressant to work.

 

[artist]

Muscle twitches, anxiety, high calcium, low appetite, coldness, serotonin all make me think you could benefit from upping sodium. I've experienced all of these, and I've also shared your tendency towards "sleeping well" but waking up feeling terrible.
Salt your food heavily, drink salty broths and consider supplementing baking soda.

Might as well tout what's worked so well for me lately as I've had extreme anxiety bordering on psychosis many times in the past myself - 1 tsp baking soda, 2 Tbs vinegar, all dissolved in a cup of water. If nothing else this will get your sodium up fast without causing digestive distress. This is so anxiety relieving for me, it's especially sedating the first few times I took it. I don't experience anxiety anymore which is a miracle for someone like me.

I wouldn't overdo it on caffeine, B vitamins or high calcium foods while you're in the midst of this chronic anxiety. Only consume caffeine if you've had a lot of carbs immediately beforehand, and I second Constantine's recommendation of trying pure caffeine rather than coffee (I can't tolerate coffee but caffeine has helped me over time). Watch out for food sensitivities in general as well as histamine intolerance, things like orange juice can be very anxiety triggering if you are sensitive. I would consider not messing with a lot of exotic supplements or medications at all and try just eating, sleeping and sunning as much as you can. If you have low appetite eat refined, sweetened, salty starches without PUFA. Bake yourself a cake or something similar and eat pieces of that (can be made PUFA/additive/gluten free). Make mac and cheese with rice pasta. Things like that. Alternate sweet and salty flavors. Taking apple cider vinegar on its own can increase appetite. Don't push yourself to overdo it though, it's okay to not eat a lot of food as long as you're not also driving your system up with excessive caffeine, thyroid or b vitamins. You can build up to eating more over time as you get healthier.

Worth noting that the body excretes sodium under the influence of serotonin and serotonin also suppresses appetite for sodium (along with everything else), and SSRIs have been linked to pathologically low sodium.
https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343(17)30920-8/fulltext

Hyponatremia (abnormally low sodium) causes dementia, reverses with increased salt intake
[Hyponatremia, cause of reversible dementia in the elderly]. - PubMed - NCBI

Ray's article on salt
Salt, energy, metabolic rate, and longevity

 

[General Orange]

@André Luiz @Jerimy Brown @Constatine
Some update on me:
After all, Cypro and Propranolol were not helping and I'm taking Tianeptine (3 x 12,5mg) for 4 days and waiting for effects - my doc prescribed me it for my anxiety and feel of guilt.
Also I made some lab tests for celiac disease, fungus, parasites and bacterial flora in my gut and everything seems fine, I have only IBS but I think it's induced by stress (also my doc's words). Now I eat healthy but I do not avoid any food.
Still have mild/medium anxiety, severe feel of guilt, intrusive thoughts, stress a lot but have less muscle twitches (only sometimes), less headaches and sleep good. Also still have problem with lack of appetite.
13rd of May will be two months after SS but I'm still suffering from it.
Do you guys know something that I could add to Tianeptine for stress? Feel of guilt + induced stress are the worst now.
Maybe I should also wait for effects from Tianeptine, because sometimes it takes few weeks for antidepressant to work.

Tianeptine should have acute effect on mood. I geuss you have a too low dose of the sodium version, the sulfate version works for extended time. Try up the dose a bit.
experience report

 

[Jerimy Brown]

@André Luiz @Jerimy Brown @Constatine
Some update on me:
After all, Cypro and Propranolol were not helping and I'm taking Tianeptine (3 x 12,5mg) for 4 days and waiting for effects - my doc prescribed me it for my anxiety and feel of guilt.
Also I made some lab tests for celiac disease, fungus, parasites and bacterial flora in my gut and everything seems fine, I have only IBS but I think it's induced by stress (also my doc's words). Now I eat healthy but I do not avoid any food.
Still have mild/medium anxiety, severe feel of guilt, intrusive thoughts, stress a lot but have less muscle twitches (only sometimes), less headaches and sleep good. Also still have problem with lack of appetite.
13rd of May will be two months after SS but I'm still suffering from it.
Do you guys know something that I could add to Tianeptine for stress? Feel of guilt + induced stress are the worst now.
Maybe I should also wait for effects from Tianeptine, because sometimes it takes few weeks for antidepressant to work.

Sorry to hear that you are still struggling after that amount of time.

The only thing I can really offer advise on, is the simplification of your diet... I really can't express what an important turning point that was for me in my recovery. I got tired of feeling bad and decided I would eliminate everything I could, and start trying one thing at a time, so I could see the effects on me. I simplified down to eating nothing but bone broth and rice for the first week, and noticed I started feeling better(bone broth doesn't work for everyone either, but it worked for me), so then I tried eggs one morning and felt worse, then I stopped eggs again, and a couple days later tried potatoes, and found those were OK, so kept those in the diet. Then I started trying the raw carrot salad peat recommends, but had a bad reaction to that after a few days, so stopped that. Then after a few days of feeling pretty good again, I tried cooked soft carrots and those worked, so kept them in the diet. Then I tried goat milk and felt worse, so stopped that. For a while that's all I could eat was bone broth, rice, cooked carrot and potatoes, which got pretty boring, so I decided to try rice noodles, and those worked. Then I started experimenting with different salts for different flavor, and slowly my appetite started coming back so I started making a soup. You can see that here: Recipes For Lowering Serotonin (Serotonin Syndrome Recovery Diet)

Now I am finally able to eat other foods. I am making blue berry smoothies with coconut milk and coconut oil, that recipe is at the link above as well, but I would recommend starting simple so you see what works and what doesn't. Now I can eat blue berries, pears, coconut yogurt, the soup above, mashed potatoes, I am adding small amounts of goat milk in the morning, and going to try eggs and fresh squeezed orange juice again today... The best advice I can give is simplify, and listen to your body.

I am not as knowledgeable as other here when it comes to nutrition, so I would ask Constatine, ROBOTT32, or one of the more knowledgeable folks here on vitamins and supplements, but I have had bad experiences with supplements so far, and I am trying to handle my recovery naturally with diet and few additional vitamins now (and it seems to be really working for me). I have just found keeping it simple and letting my body be the natural healing machine that it is, works best for me personally, but as I say every time, everyone is different, and the more I talk to people here, the more I find nothing works for everyone, that's why I recommend the diet simplification approach... I don't think a couple weeks of unbalanced nutrition is going to be any more harmful than putting something into your system that's keeping your serotonin levels spiked, or whatever it is that's keeping you from getting better.

Also, Have you tried activated charcoal? I found this really helped flush my systems of toxins in the beginning, just be careful not to let it dehydrate you.

 

[General Orange]

Cypro and Propranolol are serotonin antagonist, they lower it in the body that is good against IBS, but now the brain has to little serotonin turnover and this affects your mood, thus anxiety. To naturally increase the turnover and reduce anxiety, you could take vitamin B3 niacinamide, start from 500mg. Consult with your doctor first.

 

[GutFeeling]

Taurine, oregano oil (not essential oil) Vitamin B2, Satured fat, flowers of suphur may help. Haidut post can probably help more.

Search for haidut posts on ibs

 

[InChristAlone]

Niacinamide is good stuff, but start low. I could only tolerate about 40 mg at a time when I was at my worst.

 

[ginny-red]

Niacinamide is good stuff, but start low. I could only tolerate about 40 mg at a time when I was at my worst.

And what about niacinamide + tianeptine?

 

[InChristAlone]

I never tried tianeptine it can be addictive I would think.

 

[Maggiemccall]

Hello, thank you for your reply.
Now I know that tryptophan is the worst amino acid, but it was before I read Ray Peat articles. Now I do not take any supplements with amino acids.
I didn't know that sugar is so important, I thought that sugar can increase serotonin. I must eat more sweets.
I'm taking birth control pills, so my progesteron and estradiol are close to zero.
Daily I'm taking Zinc 10mg, Cyproheptadine 1mg, Magnesium 50mg, Propranolol 15mg - I'd like to take Cypro for 2 weeks, then stay only on Propranolol.
What do you think about increasing GABA by nacinamide or Gotu Kola?

Dr Peat Really likes Gelatine some good amino acids within without Tryptophan and I believe Cysteine , you are taking the birth control pill?? And you say your estradiol is close to zero? Have you had this tested? As I would sincerely doubt that your estradiol is close to zero when I expect your birth control pill will be some patented sort of estradiol, yes your progesterone could well be low. But unless you have had your oestrogen tested why would you think it is zero? I am sorry but my info on GABA and niacin amide or Gotu Kola is not complete enough to comment on your question. But I would find out what your birth control pill is.

 

[Constatine]

@André Luiz @Jerimy Brown @Constatine
Some update on me:
After all, Cypro and Propranolol were not helping and I'm taking Tianeptine (3 x 12,5mg) for 4 days and waiting for effects - my doc prescribed me it for my anxiety and feel of guilt.
Also I made some lab tests for celiac disease, fungus, parasites and bacterial flora in my gut and everything seems fine, I have only IBS but I think it's induced by stress (also my doc's words). Now I eat healthy but I do not avoid any food.
Still have mild/medium anxiety, severe feel of guilt, intrusive thoughts, stress a lot but have less muscle twitches (only sometimes), less headaches and sleep good. Also still have problem with lack of appetite.
13rd of May will be two months after SS but I'm still suffering from it.
Do you guys know something that I could add to Tianeptine for stress? Feel of guilt + induced stress are the worst now.
Maybe I should also wait for effects from Tianeptine, because sometimes it takes few weeks for antidepressant to work.

I have used tianeptine a lot in the past and have always had great experiences with it. It is a substance that warrants caution as there are people who have had bad experiences with it, it's also addictive in very high doses. But it's generally safe and can effectively restore brain mitochondria function. IMO colostrum would make a good addition to your stack. I'm convinced it's the most effective substance for ibs like conditions. It's also very unlikely to cause any problems. Most supplements don't sit well with ibs sufferers.

 

[General Orange]

Contraceptives, Estrogen & Progesteron
Progesterone
Low estrogen and progesterone play an important role in IBS. (R)
...
"Progesterone protects against cancer and supports pregnancy and child birth. Synthetic progesterone, known as progestin, acts more like estrogen in that they do not support progestation (which is why they are used in contraceptives), and they have been shown to be carcinogenic while promoting the effects of estrogen"
Progestin and Cancer – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

“Women and other mammals that are deficient in progesterone, and/or that have an excess of estrogen, have a higher than average incidence of cancer. Animal experiments have shown that administering progesterone could prevent cancer. Cells in the most cancer-susceptible tissues proliferate in proportion to the ratio of estrogen to progesterone. When the estrogen dominance persists for a long time without interruption, there are progressive distortions in the structure of the responsive organs–the uterus, breast, pituitary, lung, liver, kidney, brain, and other organs–and those structural distortions tend to progress gradually from fibroses to cancer.


As a result of the early studies in both humans and animals, progesterone was used by many physicians to treat the types of cancer that were clearly caused by estrogen, especially uterine, breast, and kidney cancers. But by the 1950s, the drug industry had created the myth that their patented synthetic analogs of progesterone were medically more effective than progesterone itself, and the result has been that medroxyprogesterone acetate and other synthetics have been widely used to treat women’s cancers, including breast cancer.

Unfortunately, those synthetic compounds have a variety of functions unlike progesterone, including some estrogenic and/or androgenic and/or glucocorticoid and/or antiprogesterone functions, besides other special, idiosyncratic side effects. The rationale for their use was that they were “like progesterone, only better.” The unpleasant and unwanted truth is that, as a group, they are seriously carcinogenic, besides being toxic in a variety of other ways. Thousands of researchers have drawn conclusions about the effects of progesterone on the basis of their experiments with a synthetic progestin.” -Ray Peat, PhD

 

[JackieH]

I just wanted to say thanks to you @Constatine, I have gotten more good information from your replies to other people, than all the other reading I have done... I am in week 7 of my recovery and able to experiment with foods a bit now... Started adding goat milk, and will have to try carrot salad again, I stopped that a few weeks ago, because I found every meal following it caused saver cramping for me, so I wondered if it was too abrasive on my gut at the time, but might be able to try it again now that I am getting noticeably better. I am also noticing my appetite coming back, and my stomach growls a lot now. Curious if you have any thoughts on why the carrot salad didn't work for me initially, or is it possible to have too much raw carrot, because I would also get very cold after eating it, and because I was just spooning shredded carrot into a bowl, I may have been getting more than I needed?

I'm a new member and developed SS end of February from amitriptyline. By 7 weeks I was feeling so much better. Able to laugh and felt much calmer Most importantly, I'd got my sleep back. I stopped taking ALL supplements except my mini pill and propranolol It's really important as the body is oversensitive to them

By end of week 7 I tried cyproheptadine for the last time. I took it at night and suffered an anticholinergic reaction to it which can only be described as hell and as bad as my initial SS symptoms with added tinnitus - joy!

I'm now back to week 4 again and going through all of the crippling anxieties again, only getting one night of sleep in every 2 and severe self doubt that I'll every feel love, joy or happiness again

However, I wanted to share what I have found out about diet. As well as avoiding supplements, it's helpful to know what to avoid in your food. I found a website called Self Nutrition Data. It will give you nutrition values for a vast array of foodstuffs Things to avoid are : high tryptophan, high omega 3 and 6, high glutamic acid.

I recently tried pitta bread (brown), and it made me feel very anxious very quickly.

If you're out in the sun, wear shades.

Lastly, viruses can bring back a re-emergence of symptoms. I had a cold and the brain zaps and anxiety came back It was soul destroying.

Hoping to follow you guys to see how you're all getting on in recovery ~ Jerimy, your experience seems very similar to my own and apart from the broth (I'm vegetarian), I'm really looking forward to having a tastier diet! Thank you

 

[InChristAlone]

I'm a new member and developed SS end of February from amitriptyline. By 7 weeks I was feeling so much better. Able to laugh and felt much calmer Most importantly, I'd got my sleep back. I stopped taking ALL supplements except my mini pill and propranolol It's really important as the body is oversensitive to them

By end of week 7 I tried cyproheptadine for the last time. I took it at night and suffered an anticholinergic reaction to it which can only be described as hell and as bad as my initial SS symptoms with added tinnitus - joy!

I'm now back to week 4 again and going through all of the crippling anxieties again, only getting one night of sleep in every 2 and severe self doubt that I'll every feel love, joy or happiness again

However, I wanted to share what I have found out about diet. As well as avoiding supplements, it's helpful to know what to avoid in your food. I found a website called Self Nutrition Data. It will give you nutrition values for a vast array of foodstuffs Things to avoid are : high tryptophan, high omega 3 and 6, high glutamic acid.

I recently tried pitta bread (brown), and it made me feel very anxious very quickly.

If you're out in the sun, wear shades.

Lastly, viruses can bring back a re-emergence of symptoms. I had a cold and the brain zaps and anxiety came back It was soul destroying.

Hoping to follow you guys to see how you're all getting on in recovery ~ Jerimy, your experience seems very similar to my own and apart from the broth (I'm vegetarian), I'm really looking forward to having a tastier diet! Thank you

What was the reaction to cypro? It shuts down serotonin like nothing I've ever tried. Could also be blood sugar related. If it drops you will feel anxious and get an adrenaline reaction.

 

[JackieH]

I only took 1mg on a few occasions It just made me feel a bit depressed or more than usual.

This night I tried 1mg before sleep. I was vomiting violently panicking, brain zaps returned, twitching.and the agitation was horrific. I've racked my brains, looked into the pharmacology of cypro and I find nothing but anticholinergic reaction. Neurologist agrees that this reaction just caused chaos with my recovering body and so I'm right back to where I started bar 4 weeks..

I had got so much better too and this is just devastating. My 5 year old autistic son is living with my parents until I'm well enough to have him back. Just hoping I recover again.

If you look up anticholinergic toxicity, you'll see the symptoms are very similar to SS but on its own, symptoms should just clear up within a week

 

[InChristAlone]

I only took 1mg on a few occasions It just made me feel a bit depressed or more than usual.

This night I tried 1mg before sleep. I was vomiting violently panicking, brain zaps returned, twitching.and the agitation was horrific. I've racked my brains, looked into the pharmacology of cypro and I find nothing but anticholinergic reaction. Neurologist agrees that this reaction just caused chaos with my recovering body and so I'm right back to where I started bar 4 weeks..

I had got so much better too and this is just devastating. My 5 year old autistic son is living with my parents until I'm well enough to have him back. Just hoping I recover again.

If you look up anticholinergic toxicity, you'll see the symptoms are very similar to SS but on its own, symptoms should just clear up within a week

The agitation I could see, but the vomitting seems very odd. Here is the mnemonic for it:

Sometimes after I take about .5mg my heart will race for a little while, but I've never had any toxicity signs in the 1.5 yr s I've been on it.

 

[General Orange]

Serotonin Syndrome overstimulated / flooded certain serotonin receptors in the brain, causing down-regulation of receptors, reducing its activity and function to modulate brain processes.

Applying then an anti-serotonin cyproheptadine can lower the activity of brain serotonin too much to cause brain zaps?

EDIT: On second thought, is it the anti choline effect of cyproheptadine that causes brain zaps?
removed suppl. info.

 

[JackieH]

The vomiting is an indication on other symptom lists

Not everyone will have a reaction to cyp.

All I know is that I was recovering really well and then went back to square one after that night. Recovery is pretty similar this time with the addition of tinnitus. I'm feeling particularly horrible today as I haven't slept for two nights whereas previously I'd got my sleep back.

Nobody seems either to have drawn a parallel with increasing levels of sunshine. Is no-one else affected by exposure to it as it directly boosts serotonin levels?

 

[InChristAlone]

The vomiting is an indication on other symptom lists

Not everyone will have a reaction to cyp.

All I know is that I was recovering really well and then went back to square one after that night. Recovery is pretty similar this time with the addition of tinnitus. I'm feeling particularly horrible today as I haven't slept for two nights whereas previously I'd got my sleep back.

Nobody seems either to have drawn a parallel with increasing levels of sunshine. Is no-one else affected by exposure to it as it directly boosts serotonin levels?

I don't notice serotonin symptoms from the sun. My symptoms tend to get worse in the winter when metabolism is low. But my first big panic attack happened at the peak of summer.