Can I Live Off Of Milk And Orange Juice Alone?

[paymanz]

if use whole milk its not bad but that diet doesnt have enough glycine ,taurine,vitamin k,sodium,and also creatine , beta alanine

 

[haidut]

Lactoferrin actually chelates iron already in the body and this is thought to be behind some of the anti-inflammatory effects of raw milk consumption.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21160095

My question was whether it removes iron out of the body, and the source of that claim.

I don't think it removes it from the body. It has higher affinity for iron than transferrin and oral supplementation with lactoferrin has been shown to lower plasma iron and ferritin and increase transferrin. This results in functional iron deficiency even though total body iron stores do not change. Lactoferrin simply shuttles the sequestered iron to the liver or spleen (which may not be desirable at all like you mentioned a few times). So, maybe I should have said that milk can results in tissue iron depletion but accumulation in spleen and liver. For short term problems like infection this may be good but long accumulation of iron in liver and spleen is probably not desirable.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Lactoferrin actually chelates iron already in the body and this is thought to be behind some of the anti-inflammatory effects of raw milk consumption.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21160095

My question was whether it removes iron out of the body, and the source of that claim.

I don't think it removes it from the body. It has higher affinity for iron than transferrin and oral supplementation with lactoferrin has been shown to lower plasma iron and ferritin and increase transferrin. This results in functional iron deficiency even total body iron stores do not change. Lactoferrin simply shuttles the sequestered iron to the liver or spleen (which may not be desirable at all like you mentioned a few times). So, maybe I should have said that milk can results in tissue iron depletion but accumulation in spleen and liver. For short term problems like infection this may be good but long accumualation of iron in liver and spleen is probably not desirable.

This is interesting. How could we measure iron in the spleen and liver?

 

[RPDiciple]

Sorry but this is just a retard question. You dont specify how long? are we talking about forever? ofc no!!! and i bet you all the worlds money that nobody would go through their life eating only milk and oj, wtf?
Please ask better questions and search around before you ask. RP has answered this MANY times in the past, their are even books on the "Milk Diet".

 

[haidut]

Lactoferrin actually chelates iron already in the body and this is thought to be behind some of the anti-inflammatory effects of raw milk consumption.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21160095

My question was whether it removes iron out of the body, and the source of that claim.

I don't think it removes it from the body. It has higher affinity for iron than transferrin and oral supplementation with lactoferrin has been shown to lower plasma iron and ferritin and increase transferrin. This results in functional iron deficiency even total body iron stores do not change. Lactoferrin simply shuttles the sequestered iron to the liver or spleen (which may not be desirable at all like you mentioned a few times). So, maybe I should have said that milk can results in tissue iron depletion but accumulation in spleen and liver. For short term problems like infection this may be good but long accumualation of iron in liver and spleen is probably not desirable.

This is interesting. How could we measure iron in the spleen and liver?

Officially, only through biopsy. Much fun, very nice experience
Unofficially, you can do MRI of the liver with specific settings to detect iron:
http://www.radio.univ-rennes1.fr/Source ... alc15.html

Even better, there is a non-invasive way through a blood test.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24662623

"...Hyperferritinemia was predictive of iron overload only in patients with a high level of serum ferritin (>2000 μg/L). In patients with moderate hyperferritinemia, liver transaminases inversely correlated with hepatic iron concentration. A combination of both parameters expressed as ferritin/aspartate transaminase ratio was highly predictive of tissue iron overload (sensitivity 83.3%, specificity 78.6%). Receiver operating characteristic analysis resulted in an area under the curve of 0.83."

This last study shines some light on the whole liver enzymes issue. I think both Hoffer and Barnes said that elevated liver enzymes are actually a good thing as long as the elevation is within 2x the upper limit of the range. They thought this showed the liver was working well. Another study also showed that people with liver enzymes that were in the bottom 25% actually had increased mortality. So, it seems you want your ferritin to be on the low side or liver enzymes to be slightly elevated, or both.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Lactoferrin actually chelates iron already in the body and this is thought to be behind some of the anti-inflammatory effects of raw milk consumption.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21160095

My question was whether it removes iron out of the body, and the source of that claim.

I don't think it removes it from the body. It has higher affinity for iron than transferrin and oral supplementation with lactoferrin has been shown to lower plasma iron and ferritin and increase transferrin. This results in functional iron deficiency even total body iron stores do not change. Lactoferrin simply shuttles the sequestered iron to the liver or spleen (which may not be desirable at all like you mentioned a few times). So, maybe I should have said that milk can results in tissue iron depletion but accumulation in spleen and liver. For short term problems like infection this may be good but long accumualation of iron in liver and spleen is probably not desirable.

This is interesting. How could we measure iron in the spleen and liver?

Officially, only through biopsy. Much fun, very nice experience
Unofficially, you can do MRI of the liver with specific settings to detect iron:
http://www.radio.univ-rennes1.fr/Source ... alc15.html

Even better, there is a non-invasive way through a blood test.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24662623

"...Hyperferritinemia was predictive of iron overload only in patients with a high level of serum ferritin (>2000 μg/L). In patients with moderate hyperferritinemia, liver transaminases inversely correlated with hepatic iron concentration. A combination of both parameters expressed as ferritin/aspartate transaminase ratio was highly predictive of tissue iron overload (sensitivity 83.3%, specificity 78.6%). Receiver operating characteristic analysis resulted in an area under the curve of 0.83."

This last study shines some light on the whole liver enzymes issue. I think both Hoffer and Barnes said that elevated liver enzymes are actually a good thing as long as the elevation is within 2x the upper limit of the range. They thought this showed the liver was working well. Another study also showed that people with liver enzymes that were in the bottom 25% actually had increased mortality. So, it seems you want your ferritin to be on the low side or liver enzymes to be slightly elevated, or both.

I can't get the full text it seems. It would be good to know the ratios.

 

[haidut]

Lactoferrin actually chelates iron already in the body and this is thought to be behind some of the anti-inflammatory effects of raw milk consumption.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21160095

My question was whether it removes iron out of the body, and the source of that claim.

I don't think it removes it from the body. It has higher affinity for iron than transferrin and oral supplementation with lactoferrin has been shown to lower plasma iron and ferritin and increase transferrin. This results in functional iron deficiency even total body iron stores do not change. Lactoferrin simply shuttles the sequestered iron to the liver or spleen (which may not be desirable at all like you mentioned a few times). So, maybe I should have said that milk can results in tissue iron depletion but accumulation in spleen and liver. For short term problems like infection this may be good but long accumualation of iron in liver and spleen is probably not desirable.

This is interesting. How could we measure iron in the spleen and liver?

Officially, only through biopsy. Much fun, very nice experience
Unofficially, you can do MRI of the liver with specific settings to detect iron:
http://www.radio.univ-rennes1.fr/Source ... alc15.html

Even better, there is a non-invasive way through a blood test.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24662623

"...Hyperferritinemia was predictive of iron overload only in patients with a high level of serum ferritin (>2000 μg/L). In patients with moderate hyperferritinemia, liver transaminases inversely correlated with hepatic iron concentration. A combination of both parameters expressed as ferritin/aspartate transaminase ratio was highly predictive of tissue iron overload (sensitivity 83.3%, specificity 78.6%). Receiver operating characteristic analysis resulted in an area under the curve of 0.83."

This last study shines some light on the whole liver enzymes issue. I think both Hoffer and Barnes said that elevated liver enzymes are actually a good thing as long as the elevation is within 2x the upper limit of the range. They thought this showed the liver was working well. Another study also showed that people with liver enzymes that were in the bottom 25% actually had increased mortality. So, it seems you want your ferritin to be on the low side or liver enzymes to be slightly elevated, or both.

I can't get the full text it seems. It would be good to know the ratios.

Yeah, I don't have access to it either. Maybe someone else reading this thread can post the study or PM us.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Check out THE EFFECT OF HEATING AND POSTFERMENTATION ON LACTOFERRIN OF FRESH AND KEFIR GOAT MILK

 

[schultz]

Don't you think the coffee would grab onto the manganese?

Do you mean inside the body or the grinds would bind the manganese and not let it go into the brewed liquid?

The manganese figures I got for coffee are based on brewed coffee. Are you proposing that the manganese wouldn't be absorbed from this?

I think things like lead and cadmium are retained in the actual grinds.

That it would be difficult to absorb.

Okay, I searched around for information on Mn content and absorption from brewed coffee.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S01 ... ci_arttext
link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs12161-013-9674-9.pdf

Obviously it's a pretty complicated thing to figure out exactly how much of a mineral is being absorbed since it depends on many factors. These two papers acknowledged the complexity of this.

The conclusion of the first says:

The present study reports for the first time on the bioaccessibility of selected macro- and microelements, i.e., Ca, Fe, Mg and Mn, in brews of ground coffees. It was found that the most bioaccessible metal in coffee is Mg, with the bioaccessible fraction contributing on average 62% in reference to the Mg content in the infusions. The least bioaccessible is Mn, with an average contribution of 27% in reference to the Mn content in the infusions. The bioaccessibility of Ca and Fe were comparable; the bioaccessible fractions of these metals contributed on average 42 and 43%, respectively.

27%? I can live with that Rounded down to 25% (for simple math)

The second paper says coffee contains 2.26 mg of Mn per 100g of beans. Type of brewing method would determine how much would be leached out of the grinds. The paper says that 33.2-56.2% of the manganese was present in the brewed coffee. Assuming 40%, then a brewed cup of coffee from 100g of beans would contain 0.9mg of Mn, 0.225mg of which would be bio-available. I have it listed at 0.180mg per 100g of coffee on my custom cronometer thingy, which seems very reasonable to me.

Also, when they come up with the RDA numbers, do they consider bio-availability and all that nonsense? Like, if the RDA for manganese is 2mg, is that 100% absorbed, or do they assume some is lost? My 0.225mg number is (apparently) the amount that is actually absorbed (100%) and so getting 50% of my RDA from coffee of manganese might be equivelant to getting 100% from something like pineapple juice (which I'm guessing wouldn't absorb 100% either). These metals don't seem to be well absorbed most of the time since they can interact with so many compounds.

In conclusion, I am confident that coffee gives you enough manganese if consumed in amounts of 100-200g of brewed beans a day (which is quite a bit of coffee, and wouldn't be relevant to the average 1 cup of weak **** coffee a day person)

On another note, apparently Magnesium is very well absorbed from coffee.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Nice find. All I could get was some studies with phytic acid. I wonder if it is a chance that the chronometer listing is so close to the actual bioavailability. Although I think 100g would make almost a quart of coffee. Can you find anything about the niacin in coffee?

 

[narouz]

Nice find. All I could get was some studies with phytic acid. I wonder if it is a chance that the chronometer listing is so close to the actual bioavailability. Although I think 100g would make almost a quart of coffee. Can you find anything about the niacin in coffee?

I am sorry for rudely interrupting, Such, but
where would you place phytic acid in
The Spectrum of Peatness,
bad to good...?

 

[Such_Saturation]

Nice find. All I could get was some studies with phytic acid. I wonder if it is a chance that the chronometer listing is so close to the actual bioavailability. Although I think 100g would make almost a quart of coffee. Can you find anything about the niacin in coffee?

I am sorry for rudely interrupting, Such, but
where would you place phytic acid in
The Spectrum of Peatness,
bad to good...?

Hmm, I guess it depends on what element it is binding to...

 

[Giraffe]

Also, when they come up with the RDA numbers, do they consider bio-availability and all that nonsense? Like, if the RDA for manganese is 2mg, is that 100% absorbed, or do they assume some is lost?

Recommendations for Australia/New Zealand and the FAO/WHO recommendations discuss bioavailabilty from different food sources. My guess ... If the bioavailability of the vitamin or mineral is known they make some assumptions on how the average diet looks like and do some math based on that.

Regarding manganese... Australia/New Zealand only specify AI.

AI (Adequate Intake) (used when an RDI cannot be determined)
The average daily nutrient intake level based on observed or experimentally-determined approximations or estimates of nutrient intake by a group (or groups) of apparently healthy people that are assumed to be adequate.

 

[schultz]

Nice find. All I could get was some studies with phytic acid. I wonder if it is a chance that the chronometer listing is so close to the actual bioavailability. Although I think 100g would make almost a quart of coffee. Can you find anything about the niacin in coffee?

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/112/11/2091.long

This article says that the niacin from coffee is 70% available. Half of the niacin in coffee is in a bound, esterified form which has to be hydrolysed in the intestine. They assume a 100% absorption rate of the free portion of niacin in coffee.

The amount of niacin in coffee, as I'm sure you already know, depends on how dark it is. The niacin is formed from trigonelline when it's roasted, so I assume the darker the better in regards to niacin (which Peat has said).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1897406

According to this study:
French Roast: 24.9mg of Niacin per 100g of ground coffee
Italian Roast: 41.6mg of Niacin per 100g of ground coffee

My cronometer coffee is listed as 7.2mg per 30g of ground coffee, which equals around 24mg for 100g, so I guess I got that figure from a study that used french roast.

According to my cronometer this is what 100g of beans gives me.
146mg Magnesium
0.6mg Manganese
1228mg Potassium (wow!)
2mg B2
24mg B3
6mg B5

I'm curious as to how milk effects the availability of these micro's? I always drink coffee in the form of latte's.

I also just realized this thread is not about coffee even......

 

[Such_Saturation]

I'm thinking how much niacin can get bound up like the minerals. There's also a study funded by a coffee company that shows darker roast raises blood cell vitamin E better.

 

[tomisonbottom]

The milk can be turned into farmer's cheese. The orange juice could be used as curdling agent.

 

[Regina]

I don't think it removes it from the body. It has higher affinity for iron than transferrin and oral supplementation with lactoferrin has been shown to lower plasma iron and ferritin and increase transferrin. This results in functional iron deficiency even though total body iron stores do not change. Lactoferrin simply shuttles the sequestered iron to the liver or spleen (which may not be desirable at all like you mentioned a few times). So, maybe I should have said that milk can results in tissue iron depletion but accumulation in spleen and liver. For short term problems like infection this may be good but long accumulation of iron in liver and spleen is probably not desirable.

If iron is being sequestered to the liver and/or spleen, would succinic acid help to get it out of there?

 

[haidut]

If iron is being sequestered to the liver and/or spleen, would succinic acid help to get it out of there?

Aspirin, succinic acid, vitamin E, etc have been shown to chelate iron out of tissues including liver.

 

[Regina]

Aspirin, succinic acid, vitamin E, etc have been shown to chelate iron out of tissues including liver.

Ah, thank you so much Haidut.

 

[dand]

I don't think it removes it from the body. It has higher affinity for iron than transferrin and oral supplementation with lactoferrin has been shown to lower plasma iron and ferritin and increase transferrin. This results in functional iron deficiency even though total body iron stores do not change. Lactoferrin simply shuttles the sequestered iron to the liver or spleen (which may not be desirable at all like you mentioned a few times). So, maybe I should have said that milk can results in tissue iron depletion but accumulation in spleen and liver. For short term problems like infection this may be good but long accumulation of iron in liver and spleen is probably not desirable.

Interesting. I just switched to non-homogenized milk (higher in lactoferrin) and anecdotally am noticing that my skin looks really clear. I had always attributed dilated pores in my nose to high iron stores, and anecdotally , this may be proving it. Not sure what to make if it going my liver, however :/. Supposed if I keep aspirin and vitamin E intake going it shouldn't matter too much :)