Blood Sugar Not Falling - Tried Everything Please Help

[Jackson Chung]

Hi Guys,

I have been lurking on these forums for years. Trying to get advice.

Anyway my dad's blood sugar is not falling. Its around 240 - 260 fasting. A few questions:

1. I told him not to take metformin. Do you see any issues with it being in this range? been like this for a while now (~3 years). He feels fine and has no other issues otherwise. His body weight seems alright, but he is losing his belly!

2. He is taking: Taurine (1g), Theanine (150 mg), Glycine (1g), Vitamin E (Unique E from A/C Grace), Vitamin D (1000 IU), Vitamin K2 (2-5 mg/day), Aspirin (when he feels like it, 300 mg), Pregenelone (30 mg pills), DHEA (5 mg pill). B vitamins (I prepared a solution for him, B1, B2, B3, B6, Biotin). Ceylon Cinnamon.

3. VERY LITTLE PUFA that I know of. My mom cooks in coconut oil

4. Sometimes he does eat high fat (coconut oil). I do know the randle effect.

Despite this it still does not seem to be coming down. His typical day:

1. Wake up, drink tea (milk + sugar + tea) with some starch (wheat bread)
2. Lunch cooked vegetables with some starch (rich or bread)
3. Goes to work at 2 PM (physical labor)
4. Drinks 16 oz OJ with some dried raisins until he gets back
5. Eats at night. Again rice with some milk or something like this

Any idea what may be going on? Just want to get some minds together to find a solution.

I am trying to get him to follow peat principles. Drinking milk + OJ, but he is vegetarian so it can be touch at times.

 

[Zpol]

How much protein is he eating? A grown man would require at least 100 grams per day I would think, maybe more. Also, his meals are unbalanced in macronutrient ratios. Every single meal and snack should ideally be balanced in macros in order to maintain stable blood sugar. As for carbs, I think starchy complex carbs are not ideal, most types of fruit will have a better effect on blood sugar, especially ones that are higher in fructose than glucose. 16 oz of OJ at one snack seems rather excessive for someone with blood sugar issues, especially when not balanced with a protein and fat.
One more thing, I've heard reports that fat intake should be minimized to about 25-30% from total calories for those with diabetes or pre-diabetes. Basically, minimizing fat is important but you still need to eat enough to absorb fat soluble vitamins.

As for supp's, glycine plus B1 with every meal could be helpful. Also, inositol, twice a day.

 

[SOMO]

High Blood Sugar = High Cortisol, which raises blood sugar.

Tell your dad to try taking plain Vitamin C in water on an empty stomach first thing in the morning.



Also Starch raises blood sugar more than Sugar.

 

[Vinny]

Hi Guys,

I have been lurking on these forums for years. Trying to get advice.

Anyway my dad's blood sugar is not falling. Its around 240 - 260 fasting. A few questions:

1. I told him not to take metformin. Do you see any issues with it being in this range? been like this for a while now (~3 years). He feels fine and has no other issues otherwise. His body weight seems alright, but he is losing his belly!

2. He is taking: Taurine (1g), Theanine (150 mg), Glycine (1g), Vitamin E (Unique E from A/C Grace), Vitamin D (1000 IU), Vitamin K2 (2-5 mg/day), Aspirin (when he feels like it, 300 mg), Pregenelone (30 mg pills), DHEA (5 mg pill). B vitamins (I prepared a solution for him, B1, B2, B3, B6, Biotin). Ceylon Cinnamon.

3. VERY LITTLE PUFA that I know of. My mom cooks in coconut oil

4. Sometimes he does eat high fat (coconut oil). I do know the randle effect.

Despite this it still does not seem to be coming down. His typical day:

1. Wake up, drink tea (milk + sugar + tea) with some starch (wheat bread)
2. Lunch cooked vegetables with some starch (rich or bread)
3. Goes to work at 2 PM (physical labor)
4. Drinks 16 oz OJ with some dried raisins until he gets back
5. Eats at night. Again rice with some milk or something like this

Any idea what may be going on? Just want to get some minds together to find a solution.

I am trying to get him to follow peat principles. Drinking milk + OJ, but he is vegetarian so it can be touch at times.

Your dad's diet is horrible.

 

[charlie]

Tell your dad to try taking plain Vitamin C in water on an empty stomach first thing in the morning.

This will lower cortisol?

 

[ecstatichamster]

He should eat high sugar low starch low fat.
That fixes type 2 diabetes.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Also needs to boost calcium. A lot.

 

[tara]

How much protein is he eating?

+1

As a non-expert, my hunch would be to look at and maybe experiment with the balance and spacing of meals.
For instance, to time in with common natural cortisol and blood sugar cycles, I've heard that many people do better eating a decent breakfast, their main meal around midday, and only lightly in the evening.
I too would consider aiming for some good protein at each meal. Whether by way of dairy, eggs or lentils etc. Peat is not enthusiastic about legumes, but I think some are easier on the system than others, sprouting them can help, and for me I suspect they may be helpful for keeping blood glucose stable.
Maybe worth splitting the B-vit dosing to at least 2-3 times a day.
And check calcium intake, and other essential minerals. You can try cronometer or similar if you haven't already for a rough estimate of basics.

 

[yerrag]

He needs to go cold turkey on everything that's loaded with PUFAs, for at least 4 years. Even Peat believers aren't able to do this and still have blood sugar issues. Since he isn't convinced of the evil of PUFAs, I doubt he is willing to do this. But this is key. I did this, even before knowing of Ray Peat. And it really made my blood sugar control go close to optimal. My fasting blood sugar went down from 113 to 85.

Since he is vegetarian, I'm doubtful he can stay away from PUFAs. A conversion to omnivore, and a conversion to Peat ideas. Hope you can pull that off. It's hard, especially from a son to a father. I know.

Hope that is all that's needed, as that is a tall order.

Another cause is bacteria. Some bacteria, like p. gingivalis, an anaerobic bacteria of periodontal origin, can produce enzymes called dipeptyl peptidases, that will inhibit incretins. Incretins do a similar job as insulin, and together they lower blood sugar, among other things. When the incretins are inhibited, blood sugar have a harder time going down. Last year, I experienced their effects, and I gained 20 pounds as a result. I finally got my blood sugar back to optimal levels, just recently, and expect my weight to go down (fingers crossed).

Another possibility: subluxation in the spinal cord. 20 years ago, I went on an intense 3 session/week therapy with a chiropractor for 2 months. It improved my blood sugar control, but given that I was PUFA-filled, its effects were limited at best. Edit: Subluxation is misalignment in the spine and this causes nerves to be pinched, and this interferes with the signalling between brain and an organ. Fixing the misalignment improves the signalling, and makes the organ more responsive to brain signals. In this case, the signals involve sugar regulation.

Lastly, hypoxemia (by now everyone should be familiar with this term if you've been following COVID-19) can limit the oxygen delivery to the tissues. Lacking oxygen, one will be metabolizing sugar in hypoxic conditions and this limits the metabolic rate. This would reduce the rate of sugar being metabolized. This could also increase blood sugar. I had mercury toxicity, and mercury lowers the amount of oxygen our blood can carry. After I detoxified of mercury through chelation, my blood sugar regulation also improved.

 

[SOMO]

This will lower cortisol?

Apparently, Vitamin C either stops Cortisol secretion OR prevents the production of excess stress hormones like adrenaline, while still maintaining a small level of Cortisol, which I believe is necessary.

Vitamin C supplementation attenuates the increases in circulating cortisol, adrenaline and anti-inflammatory polypeptides following ultramarathon r... - PubMed - NCBI

Mean pre-race concentrations of serum vitamin C in VC-500 and VC-1500 groups (128 +/- 31 and 153 +/- 34 micromol/l) were significantly higher than in the P group (83 +/- 39 micromol/l). Immediate post-race serum cortisol was significantly lower in the VC-1500 group (p < 0.05) than in P and VC-500 groups. When the data from VC-500 and P groups was combined (n = 17), immediate post-race plasma adrenaline, IL-10 and IL-1Ra concentrations were also significantly lower (p < 0.05) in the VC-1500 group. The study demonstrates an attenuation, albeit transient, of both the adrenal stress hormone and anti-inflammatory polypeptide response to prolonged exercise in runners who supplemented with 1500 mg vitamin C per day when compared to < or = 500 mg per day.

The adrenal-vitamin C axis: from fish to guinea pigs and primates

Observations of very high vitamin C levels in the adrenal gland as well as its release in response to ACTH suggest that vitamin C plays a role in the stress response [2]. Release of cortisol in response to stress is well documented in humans and throughout the animal kingdom. However, there is marked inter-species variation in the amount of cortisol released in response to a stressor. Interestingly, there is a strong inverse correlation between the ability of an animal to endogenously produce vitamin C and the cortisol response when stressed. Barton et al. reported the baseline cortisol and response of numerous fish species to handling [3]. Those fish species which synthesized vitamin C had a 1.6-fold increase in cortisol levels after stress as compared to a 20.2-fold increase in those fish species that were unable to produce vitamin C, with the non-producers having a significantly higher baseline cortisol level. Additional evidence supports the concept of an inverse correlation between vitamin C and cortisol levels. Guinea pigs that are made deficient in vitamin C hyper-secrete cortisol [4]. Supplementation of ascorbic acid in humans and animal models is associated with a decreased cortisol response after a psychological or physical stressor

I also think Vitamin C restores oxidative metabolism and in higher doses produces H2O2/ROS, so it is in essence a mild antibiotic as well.

 

[haidut]

Hi Guys,

I have been lurking on these forums for years. Trying to get advice.

Anyway my dad's blood sugar is not falling. Its around 240 - 260 fasting. A few questions:

1. I told him not to take metformin. Do you see any issues with it being in this range? been like this for a while now (~3 years). He feels fine and has no other issues otherwise. His body weight seems alright, but he is losing his belly!

2. He is taking: Taurine (1g), Theanine (150 mg), Glycine (1g), Vitamin E (Unique E from A/C Grace), Vitamin D (1000 IU), Vitamin K2 (2-5 mg/day), Aspirin (when he feels like it, 300 mg), Pregenelone (30 mg pills), DHEA (5 mg pill). B vitamins (I prepared a solution for him, B1, B2, B3, B6, Biotin). Ceylon Cinnamon.

3. VERY LITTLE PUFA that I know of. My mom cooks in coconut oil

4. Sometimes he does eat high fat (coconut oil). I do know the randle effect.

Despite this it still does not seem to be coming down. His typical day:

1. Wake up, drink tea (milk + sugar + tea) with some starch (wheat bread)
2. Lunch cooked vegetables with some starch (rich or bread)
3. Goes to work at 2 PM (physical labor)
4. Drinks 16 oz OJ with some dried raisins until he gets back
5. Eats at night. Again rice with some milk or something like this

Any idea what may be going on? Just want to get some minds together to find a solution.

I am trying to get him to follow peat principles. Drinking milk + OJ, but he is vegetarian so it can be touch at times.

If his doctor is OK with it, I would drop the other supplements and try famotidine for a week. I have had a lot of people email me over the years with intractable blood sugar issues and 20mg famotidine x 2 daily invariably dropped their blood sugar to the point their doctor thought they are shooting insulin. But again, I would ask the doctor first as it is technically a drug and the doctor should know what a person with such high blood sugar is using. If his kidneys are shot then the famotidine dose may need to be lowered.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3109/14756366.2012.672413
"...Famotidine was investigated as an inhibitor of glycogen synthase kinase-3β (GSK-3β) in an attempt to explain the molecular mechanism of its hypoglycemic side effects."

If the blood glucose normalizes then he can probably reintroduce pregnenolone/DHEA and D/K/B3 as those would be most beneficial for such issues IMO.

 

[redsun]

Hi Guys,

I have been lurking on these forums for years. Trying to get advice.

Anyway my dad's blood sugar is not falling. Its around 240 - 260 fasting. A few questions:

1. I told him not to take metformin. Do you see any issues with it being in this range? been like this for a while now (~3 years). He feels fine and has no other issues otherwise. His body weight seems alright, but he is losing his belly!

2. He is taking: Taurine (1g), Theanine (150 mg), Glycine (1g), Vitamin E (Unique E from A/C Grace), Vitamin D (1000 IU), Vitamin K2 (2-5 mg/day), Aspirin (when he feels like it, 300 mg), Pregenelone (30 mg pills), DHEA (5 mg pill). B vitamins (I prepared a solution for him, B1, B2, B3, B6, Biotin). Ceylon Cinnamon.

3. VERY LITTLE PUFA that I know of. My mom cooks in coconut oil

4. Sometimes he does eat high fat (coconut oil). I do know the randle effect.

Despite this it still does not seem to be coming down. His typical day:

1. Wake up, drink tea (milk + sugar + tea) with some starch (wheat bread)
2. Lunch cooked vegetables with some starch (rich or bread)
3. Goes to work at 2 PM (physical labor)
4. Drinks 16 oz OJ with some dried raisins until he gets back
5. Eats at night. Again rice with some milk or something like this

Any idea what may be going on? Just want to get some minds together to find a solution.

I am trying to get him to follow peat principles. Drinking milk + OJ, but he is vegetarian so it can be touch at times.

I am going to echo @Vinny here. Where the hell is the protein. Its no wonder the blood sugar problems are so bad. You need protein for proper glucose metabolism. All I see is bread/starches and sugars with some protein from milk.

 

[Vinny]

I also think Vitamin C restores oxidative metabolism and in higher doses produces H2O2/ROS, so it is in essence a mild antibiotic as well.

How much exactly would be a higher dose to take for restoration of oxidative metabolism, if you know?
Thanks

 

[SOMO]

How much exactly would be a higher dose to take for restoration of oxidative metabolism, if you know?
Thanks

3g+ several times a day. You can take a large dose all at once but it will usually cause diarrhea.

 

[Tristan Loscha]

Hi Guys,

I have been lurking on these forums for years. Trying to get advice.

Anyway my dad's blood sugar is not falling. Its around 240 - 260 fasting. A few questions:

1. I told him not to take metformin. Do you see any issues with it being in this range? been like this for a while now (~3 years). He feels fine and has no other issues otherwise. His body weight seems alright, but he is losing his belly!

2. He is taking: Taurine (1g), Theanine (150 mg), Glycine (1g), Vitamin E (Unique E from A/C Grace), Vitamin D (1000 IU), Vitamin K2 (2-5 mg/day), Aspirin (when he feels like it, 300 mg), Pregenelone (30 mg pills), DHEA (5 mg pill). B vitamins (I prepared a solution for him, B1, B2, B3, B6, Biotin). Ceylon Cinnamon.

3. VERY LITTLE PUFA that I know of. My mom cooks in coconut oil

4. Sometimes he does eat high fat (coconut oil). I do know the randle effect.

Despite this it still does not seem to be coming down. His typical day:

1. Wake up, drink tea (milk + sugar + tea) with some starch (wheat bread)
2. Lunch cooked vegetables with some starch (rich or bread)
3. Goes to work at 2 PM (physical labor)
4. Drinks 16 oz OJ with some dried raisins until he gets back
5. Eats at night. Again rice with some milk or something like this

Any idea what may be going on? Just want to get some minds together to find a solution.

I am trying to get him to follow peat principles. Drinking milk + OJ, but he is vegetarian so it can be touch at times.

Your dad's diet is horrible.

+1

Easy and lazy type of hack without going pharmaceutical is to increase Vitamin D to 5000IU-10000IU/d.But the diet is horrible,one of the causes the sugar is hanging around is that there is simply no reason or cause for cellular energy expenditure at all.He needs Energysubstrate to fuel Lipid and Protein metabolism,resulting in Regen of Bodytissues.No Protein,no Reason.

 

[Hans]

What Haidut said. Serotonin increases both glucagon and insulin (increases baseline insulin but lowers stimulated insulin) which leaves you in a state of hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia. Lowering serotonin with famotidine can lower blood sugar.
The free serotonin stimulates the brain and adrenals to release adrenaline and this boosts glucagon secretion which increases gluconeogenesis that increases blood sugar.

 

[Jackson Chung]

How much protein is he eating? A grown man would require at least 100 grams per day I would think, maybe more. Also, his meals are unbalanced in macronutrient ratios. Every single meal and snack should ideally be balanced in macros in order to maintain stable blood sugar. As for carbs, I think starchy complex carbs are not ideal, most types of fruit will have a better effect on blood sugar, especially ones that are higher in fructose than glucose. 16 oz of OJ at one snack seems rather excessive for someone with blood sugar issues, especially when not balanced with a protein and fat.
One more thing, I've heard reports that fat intake should be minimized to about 25-30% from total calories for those with diabetes or pre-diabetes. Basically, minimizing fat is important but you still need to eat enough to absorb fat soluble vitamins.

As for supp's, glycine plus B1 with every meal could be helpful. Also, inositol, twice a day.

Thank you! What do you think he should do to get the protein? low fat milk? That's what I have been recommending. But he does not listen sadly...its tough

 

[Jackson Chung]

He should eat high sugar low starch low fat.
That fixes type 2 diabetes.

Any luck with this? I try to explain this to him, but unfortunately he doesn't listen. Still thinks sugar is bad for diabetes....stupid doctors and their brainwashing.

 

[Jackson Chung]

+1

As a non-expert, my hunch would be to look at and maybe experiment with the balance and spacing of meals.
For instance, to time in with common natural cortisol and blood sugar cycles, I've heard that many people do better eating a decent breakfast, their main meal around midday, and only lightly in the evening.
I too would consider aiming for some good protein at each meal. Whether by way of dairy, eggs or lentils etc. Peat is not enthusiastic about legumes, but I think some are easier on the system than others, sprouting them can help, and for me I suspect they may be helpful for keeping blood glucose stable.
Maybe worth splitting the B-vit dosing to at least 2-3 times a day.
And check calcium intake, and other essential minerals. You can try cronometer or similar if you haven't already for a rough estimate of basics.

He does take b-Vitamins. 3 spoons or whatever, not sure if he is getting the right dose. I think I wanted him to take 0.5 oz, he probably isn't even getting .1 oz. I will tell him to up the b vitamins. I am surprised though that preg/dhea didn't do anything. Though its his first day on dhea...been taking preg for a while (it does convert to DHEA, but more so progesterone I heard).

 

[Jackson Chung]

He needs to go cold turkey on everything that's loaded with PUFAs, for at least 4 years. Even Peat believers aren't able to do this and still have blood sugar issues. Since he isn't convinced of the evil of PUFAs, I doubt he is willing to do this. But this is key. I did this, even before knowing of Ray Peat. And it really made my blood sugar control go close to optimal. My fasting blood sugar went down from 113 to 85.

Since he is vegetarian, I'm doubtful he can stay away from PUFAs. A conversion to omnivore, and a conversion to Peat ideas. Hope you can pull that off. It's hard, especially from a son to a father. I know.

Hope that is all that's needed, as that is a tall order.

Another cause is bacteria. Some bacteria, like p. gingivalis, an anaerobic bacteria of periodontal origin, can produce enzymes called dipeptyl peptidases, that will inhibit incretins. Incretins do a similar job as insulin, and together they lower blood sugar, among other things. When the incretins are inhibited, blood sugar have a harder time going down. Last year, I experienced their effects, and I gained 20 pounds as a result. I finally got my blood sugar back to optimal levels, just recently, and expect my weight to go down (fingers crossed).

Another possibility: subluxation in the spinal cord. 20 years ago, I went on an intense 3 session/week therapy with a chiropractor for 2 months. It improved my blood sugar control, but given that I was PUFA-filled, its effects were limited at best. Edit: Subluxation is misalignment in the spine and this causes nerves to be pinched, and this interferes with the signalling between brain and an organ. Fixing the misalignment improves the signalling, and makes the organ more responsive to brain signals. In this case, the signals involve sugar regulation.

Lastly, hypoxemia (by now everyone should be familiar with this term if you've been following COVID-19) can limit the oxygen delivery to the tissues. Lacking oxygen, one will be metabolizing sugar in hypoxic conditions and this limits the metabolic rate. This would reduce the rate of sugar being metabolized. This could also increase blood sugar. I had mercury toxicity, and mercury lowers the amount of oxygen our blood can carry. After I detoxified of mercury through chelation, my blood sugar regulation also improved.

Thank you. I think he does limit PUFA, my parents aren't the brightest so buy whatever. I told them to limit chips and such. They eat at home 95% of the time. He doesn't eat chips or anything. He still has the idea that raw vegetables are good and eats them. I don't doubt it leads to endotoxin. At the same time he has been eating carrots which is good.

Any signs which would signal he has subluxation of the spinal cord?

I only give him carrots for the bacteria, I think it helps. Any other suggestions? Keep in mind he doesn't do his own research like you and won't follow and protocol. Just your regular ignorant person...

What do you think to improve hypoxia? I think bag breaking would help? Increasing CO2, Bohr-Haldane effect wouldn't hurt and easy to do.