All About Lipogenesis

[Hans]

Hey all,

Just a while ago there was some talk about lipogenesis so I wrote an article on it to try help get rid of misconceptions on lipogenesis.

Hope you enjoy and let me know what you think.
The Ultimate Guide on Lipogenesis

 

[redsun]

Hey all,

Just a while ago there was some talk about lipogenesis so I wrote an article on it to try help get rid of misconceptions on lipogenesis.

Hope you enjoy and let me know what you think.
The Ultimate Guide on Lipogenesis

"
In this study the researchers reduced the sugar content from obese children’s diets (from 28% to 10%) for 9 days and replaced it with equal amounts of refined glucose so that calories stayed more or less the same.

As a result, DNL dropped by almost 60%, L-lactate (a product of glycolysis that promotes fatigue) by 33%, D-lactate (a detox product of methylglyoxal which causes glycation products such as HbA1c) by 50%, liver fat by 37% and insulin by 30% in just 9 days (R)."

We are talking barely over a week and 37% decrease in liver fat. So theoretically, it would not even take a few months to lean out the liver following something like this? Of course these are obese children so even small positive changes can start steering health in the other direction pretty dam quickly. Nice to know my concerns of fructose were somewhat verified though I never did think fructose in itself is bad but it can become bad easily without enough lipotrophics just like saturated fat.

Also do you think the increase in NAD from niacin would be increasing oxidation of fats in the liver because of how vital NAD is for oxidative metabolism? Is there a way to know if NAD levels are suboptimal and is it different from niacin deficiency symptoms? You always read about niacin causing a fatty liver, not remedying it. I guess if methyl groups were depleted it could eventually lead to this.

Thanks again for another informative article.

 

[Cirion]

This makes me want to experiment going back to taking maltodextrin shakes again (refined glucose). Maltodextrin kinda helps sooth the "sweet tooth" but without getting too much fructose. I've definitely verified experimentally that there is a peak benefit to sugar intake but to me its definitely way higher than most people think is good, that said, I keep thinking I can improve it further, otherwise I wouldn't still be flatlined in my metabolic improvements.

Most of these studies aren't too helpful to me in the long run though considering my carb needs are drastically higher than most experiments ever seem to study lol. I mean 28% sugar diet even that's low. I get up to 70-80% of my calories from sugar lol. I have to wonder too if the 28% sugar diet was loaded with pufa. I confess I didn't yet read the whole thing but skimmed through it. I don't see how only 28% sugar can be fattening without fats/pufa.

fwiw, my friend who originally taught me about eating high carb in the first place was also the one who told me he doesn't believe ray peat about sugar and he continued to say sugar was the devil. And he was the one that continued to improve his health while I got sicker....... just sayin. I dunno what to do though, because starch makes me tired and fatigued. I literally have to have sugar or I can not function. Sugar is also the ONLY macronutrient that bumps me above 98F waking temps. So I can't get rid of it, but maybe I'll supplement maltodextrin tho.

 

[Vinny]

"
liver fat by 37%

Interesting, how did they measure the liver fat with such accuracy?

 

[yerrag]

Very timely article. I had begun just a week ago to cut back on all cane sugar and replace it with maltose. I finally had had it with the bulge in my stomach which has not, unlike in the past, gone back to where I'd easily fit in my pants. Where size 29 would size just right, I now struggle with a size 31. I thought back and now realize I had really gone full Peat fructose-wise a year or so ago. This, I believe, isn't so much as in taking a lot of fruit juice as much as being very liberal in my use of cane sugar.

In the past, it would take just 2-4 weeks and I'd easily have my slim stomach back but thru either intermittent fasting or daily runs or just seeing an uptick in my heart rate. Or I would have to get sick - like having a bad case of rhinitis for 2 weeks.

But thanks to Peat, I've been allergy free for a year or so- improved immunity from higher metabolism and no deficiencies. This long spell of good health, coupled with increased fructose intake that isn't fruit-based, and probably age catching up with me, as well as being more sedentary (due to all the research and reading I needed to do to deal with lowering my blood pressure) is causing an increase in girth.

Mito has shared some studies before as well about generous fructose intake without increased activity. Chris Masterjohn also has a video detailing how excess energy (from glycolysis in the cytosol or from beta oxidation in the mitochondria) not being fully transferred from the citric acid (TCA) cycle to the electron transport cycle (due to less activity), thus causing the TCA to produce citric acid to the cytosol, where it reacts with acetyl CoA to spur fatty acid synthesis.


Will see how this works out for me.

 

[yerrag]

where it reacts with acetyl CoA to spur fatty acid synthesis.

Correction: where it generates acetyl CoA...

 

[DrJ]

@Hans That was very enlightening. Nice job! And thanks for sharing.

 

[Dino D]

Hey all,

Just a while ago there was some talk about lipogenesis so I wrote an article on it to try help get rid of misconceptions on lipogenesis.

Hope you enjoy and let me know what you think.
The Ultimate Guide on Lipogenesis

A lot of suplements to make carbs work,
Vs just eating less carbs, and/or not to frequent...
People who eat more carbs, or start eating more carbs, dont get leaner, they get fat... glucose or fructose, it does not matter...
People who cut carbs get leaner...
There are no people who start eating more of any macro and as a result get leaner... maybe some super specific conditions
Also hardcore ectomorfts can eat whatever, but if 90% of the people try that they get fat...
Balance and portion control can make everybody lose weight
Some excercise.
You asked in your blog how was i eating when i was lean... so there was never ever a period when i ate carbs and where lean... im not diabetic or hypo, anemic or whatever... i can lose weight with portion control, low carb, or 0 carb, and with excercize
I cant lose weight without restriction or with eating carbs as much as i crave, no matter the source, and i dont know one person who is the opposite... i know some people who are skinny or lean their whole life, no matter what they do... its 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 people... so, good luck to everyone eating 300-400+ gram of carbs per day and ,,resting" with bunch of sups, im out.

 

[Hans]

We are talking barely over a week and 37% decrease in liver fat. So theoretically, it would not even take a few months to lean out the liver following something like this?

Yeah according to the study. It might take longer with people with more liver damage, as these were only kids, so that's why it was fast.

Also do you think the increase in NAD from niacin would be increasing oxidation of fats in the liver because of how vital NAD is for oxidative metabolism?

NAD is very important for substrate oxidation yes, but at the end of the day, the NADH has to be "used" the ETC. So it doesn't matter how much NAD you have, if the NADH isn't "used" it doesn't matter. Lactate dehydrogenase can also convert NAD to NADH, so if NAD gets low and NADH high, LDH can become upregulated to boost NAD levels again.

So if NAD is low, then boosting it is very beneficial, but I'm not sure more than that will be any better or have any more benefit.

Is there a way to know if NAD levels are suboptimal and is it different from niacin deficiency symptoms?

I'm not sure if there is a readily available test for this, but if someone feel benefit from B3, then possibly someone might have low NAD.

Thanks again for another informative article.

 

[Hans]

Most of these studies aren't too helpful to me in the long run though considering my carb needs are drastically higher than most experiments ever seem to study lol. I mean 28% sugar diet even that's low. I get up to 70-80% of my calories from sugar lol.

There isn't much of a difference in DNL between glucose and fructose even with overfeeding. Even if hyperinsulinemia upregulates DNL by 3 fold, about 30g of fat is created from a ton of glucose or fructose. I really don't think DNL contributes all that much to fat gain, but rather other factors, such as reduced fat oxidation.

I have to wonder too if the 28% sugar diet was loaded with pufa. I confess I didn't yet read the whole thing but skimmed through it. I don't see how only 28% sugar can be fattening without fats/pufa.

Yes that's what I concluded, that removing fructose when eating a high PUFA diet has an immediate beneficial effect compared to removing PUFAs.

 

[Hans]

Interesting, how did they measure the liver fat with such accuracy?

Magnetic resonance spectroscopy.

 

[OceanSpray]

Interesting, how did they measure the liver fat with such accuracy?

With a questionnaire.

 

[Hans]

Mito has shared some studies before as well about generous fructose intake without increased activity. Chris Masterjohn also has a video detailing how excess energy (from glycolysis in the cytosol or from beta oxidation in the mitochondria) not being fully transferred from the citric acid (TCA) cycle to the electron transport cycle (due to less activity), thus causing the TCA to produce citric acid to the cytosol, where it reacts with acetyl CoA to spur fatty acid synthesis.

Lactate can also be used for lipogenesis and excess fructose intake boosts lactate levels.
Interestingly, vit B1, which increases pyruvate dehydrogenase can also increase lipogenesis due to extra citrate if the TCA cycle is not moving fast enough. This actually then cause fatty liver in rats that's eating a low choline diet.

 

[Hans]

@Hans That was very enlightening. Nice job! And thanks for sharing.

 

[yerrag]

Lactate can also be used for lipogenesis and excess fructose intake boosts lactate levels.

This must be why when blood sugar is high, and in order to lower blood sugar, glucose can be converted to fructose , to enable it to convert to lactate, on the way to being converted to fat.

 

[Waremu]

Very timely article. I had begun just a week ago to cut back on all cane sugar and replace it with maltose. I finally had had it with the bulge in my stomach which has not, unlike in the past, gone back to where I'd easily fit in my pants. Where size 29 would size just right, I now struggle with a size 31. I thought back and now realize I had really gone full Peat fructose-wise a year or so ago. This, I believe, isn't so much as in taking a lot of fruit juice as much as being very liberal in my use of cane sugar.

In the past, it would take just 2-4 weeks and I'd easily have my slim stomach back but thru either intermittent fasting or daily runs or just seeing an uptick in my heart rate. Or I would have to get sick - like having a bad case of rhinitis for 2 weeks.

But thanks to Peat, I've been allergy free for a year or so- improved immunity from higher metabolism and no deficiencies. This long spell of good health, coupled with increased fructose intake that isn't fruit-based, and probably age catching up with me, as well as being more sedentary (due to all the research and reading I needed to do to deal with lowering my blood pressure) is causing an increase in girth.

Mito has shared some studies before as well about generous fructose intake without increased activity. Chris Masterjohn also has a video detailing how excess energy (from glycolysis in the cytosol or from beta oxidation in the mitochondria) not being fully transferred from the citric acid (TCA) cycle to the electron transport cycle (due to less activity), thus causing the TCA to produce citric acid to the cytosol, where it reacts with acetyl CoA to spur fatty acid synthesis.



Will see how this works out for me.

Keep in mind that the Chris Masterjohn's biochemical mechanistic explanation of fatty acid synthesis from excess energy is within the context of just that, "excess energy"/excess calories. So, this takes place within the context of how much overall fat can be converted from carbohydrates like fructose and glucose, (while fructose is more lipogenic than glucose, over all, the carb-fat conversion will only yield fat gain within grams amount equivalent, studies suggest) which overall is still not very much, since carb to fat conversion is very inefficient relative to excess calories from fat. (Fat is more lipogenic than fructose) If someone gains pounds upon pounds while eating high fructose, it was likely that it was a large amount of extra calories which in part came from fructose rather than the fructose itself that causes the weight gain, in conjunction to a higher fat intake. And if their high fructose consumption came from eating a large amount of fat as well, then it is likely more of the stored adipose energy which came as the result of excess calories came from dietary fat over fructose. There are multiple biochemical pathways wherein calories can convert to fat when consumed in excess. This is just one, albeit inefficient relative to other pathways. Also, since the liver can store anywhere around 70-100 grams of fructose, that is very hard to reach if you're even consuming large amounts of fruit juice. You'd have to be massively overconsuming calories from fructose or a fruitarian type of diet to overshoot that. You would have to consume 418 carbs of concentrated orange juice just to get 89 grams of fructose. That is a days worth of fructose from orange juice for me. That seems to be near the upper limit of what my liver can store. But even then, I weight lift, and have an overall active lifestyle, so it is possible I could get away with even more fructose than that because I am depleting my liver of glycogen via working out and other activities. So I would imagine, if one gained weight eating high fructose, they were massively over consuming calories and higher fat calories and were not very active.

This also matches my experiences over the many years of Peating. A relatively high fructose-very low fat-maintenance or slightly above maintenance caloric intake had dramatically different results than a above maintenance-hypo-caloric intake which had larger amounts of fructose and fat calories. I leaned out on the former and gained weight on the latter. In fact, I often maintained my fructose intake and just lowered my fat very low whenever I wanted to lose weight and it always worked. This is likely also why many low fat fruitarians are also lean (though some of that has to do with unhealthy weight loss as well such as muscle/LBM loss due to possible nutritional deficiencies such zinc, etc.). The only fruitarians that are chubby that I see are the ones who eat a lot of avocados and nuts with their high fructose intake.

I am currently doing an experiment where most my calories come from glucose, but I still have little fructose with each carb-glucose meal for ideal carbohydrate/glucose absorption, (Some evidence suggests that fructose with glucose seems to be superior than glucose alone) but not enough fructose where it is considered high fructose. I'm on a slight leaning out phase so I am seeing if it's easier to lean out with more glucose over fructose as opposed to higher or fructose.

 

[yerrag]

In my case, I haven't been eating a lot of fat, especially since Peating. I think that fruitarians aren't likely to get fat from fructose intake as they're getting a good amount of potassium along with the sugar, and that makes a big difference. Contrast that with using cane sugar, mixing it with coffee in the morning and during the day, and with drinking Coke like a healthful beverage, and mixing it generously with milk before bed. Perhaps the potassium helps keep fructose from turning into lactate on the way to turning into fat. This process is perhaps more significant as it is fructose-specific whereas the mitochondrial shunting of citrate to the cytosol is very general and applies mainly to excess energy that can't go beyond the TCA cycle.

 

[yerrag]

I thought more about this, and I wonder if there's validity to the argument that you need to have a large amount of fructose intake for the liver to convert it to fat via de novo lipogenesis (DNL). This argument assumes pretty much that DNL in the liver is the significant, if not the only, way that DNL is accomplished. But my understanding is that during hyperglycemia, the body has a mechanism of converting glucose to fructose. I see this as an adaptive mechanism for the body to lower blood sugar, as fructose can be turned into lactate, as lactate can then be turned into fat, where in storage it does no harm. Because the body can turn fructose into lactate and into fat, it makes me question the argument that a large intake of fructose is needed for the liver to convert it to fat.

I'm assuming that lactate converting into fat does not require the liver to do anything though. @Hans do you know if the liver is needed for lactate to convert to fat?

 

[revenant]

In the article it's mentioned that substances that block excess lipolysis help reduce fat by reducing fat accumulation in the liver and rest of the body.

How does this work exactly? I would've thought that anything that increases lipolysis automatically reduces fat.

 

[nbznj]

I can’t understand how so many people still think that eating specific carbs is going to make a difference vs other “better” carbs.

The only things that matter are calories in+out and nutrient density.

A high fat diet combined with carbs is terrible in terms of palatability (terribly good = overeating) and that’s the issue at hand. Bread with cheese. Whole milk. Rice or pasta with a nice sauce. Full fat yogurt with manmade “improved” fruits.

Virtually every single third world country eats a diet loaded with carbs, and naturally low in fats. Get out of the Western degeneration and YouTube quackery