How To Fix Your Liver Guide

[Hans]

Great article—thank you.

Any advice for those who are hyper sensitive to many supplements recommended, apart from the obvious of starting low and slow? My understanding is that the very supplements that a poor liver needs may be intolerable, due to that poor liver. This has been my experience.

I'd probably experiment with liver supportive supplements to see which ones I do not react negatively to. Have you tried taurine/TUDCA and even reacted negatively to those?

Bitter herbs @Mossy... I like gentian root

Have you found that the bitter herbs improve tolerance to other supplements or that it improves liver function?

Great article. I will be reading it again. Really solid suggestions.

One note, a forum member had good results reducing NAFLD using Vitamin E Succinate, which can help to combine two of the items on the stack at the end.

Sweet, thanks for mentioning.

Weird for a men’s blog to recommend milk thistle - an androgen antagonist.

If I were to write a how to fix your liver guide it would be the following:
- 400mg UDCA daily - being the gold standard for reversing fatty liver
- sufficient dietary vitamin e, vitamin k, choline, taurine and methionine

The safety and efficacy of a silymarin and selenium combination in men after radical prostatectomy - a six month placebo-controlled double-blind cl... - PubMed - NCBI

"Thirty seven participants, 2-3 months after RP, were randomly assigned to receive 570 mg of silymarin and 240 µg of selenium as selenomethionine (n = 19, SM-Se group) or placebo (n = 18, Placebo group) daily for six months. Both groups had similar clinical and demographic characteristics. Physical examination, QoL score, haematology, basic clinical chemistry and oxidative stress markers, selenium and testosterone levels, antioxidant status were evaluated at baseline, at 3 and 6 months.

RESULTS:
The six months administration of silymarin and selenium improved the QoL score, decreased low density lipoproteins (LDL) and total cholesterol and, increased serum selenium levels. The combination had no effect on blood antioxidant status and no influence on testosterone level."​

Milk thistle can be estrogenic in higher doses, but in small doses, the benefits outweigh the negatives.

 

[Inaut]

@Hans

It does both. Digestion is getting better, poops are great, skin is slowly clearing up and it’s one of the most simple yet effective things to do before meals. Now that I know Ray agrees with the benefit, I’m locked in for da rest of my life.

Our ancestors had knowledge of this tool but somehow we seem to have forgotten about it in the wake of pharmaceuticals and supplements.

 

[brocktoon]

I'll study your liver treatise with great interest, Hans. For the past year I've taken an assortment of RPF-recommended supplements re: NAFLD (after an MRI and ultrasound showing diffusely fatty liver). Choline bitartrate, MK4, niacinamide, E succinate, caffeine. I also lost 12 pounds. After 10 months, tests showed substantially lowered liver enzymes (ALT, AST), but follow up MRI and FibroScan showed an unchanged liver in terms of diffuse fat still. Doc says liver enzymes "often go up and down" as if to dismiss any progress the lowered enzymes might suggest. My question: am I ANY better off now re: my fatty liver than I was say a year ago?

 

[Hans]

@Hans

It does both. Digestion is getting better, poops are great, skin is slowly clearing up and it’s one of the most simple yet effective things to do before meals. Now that I know Ray agrees with the benefit, I’m locked in for da rest of my life.

Our ancestors had knowledge of this tool but somehow we seem to have forgotten about it in the wake of pharmaceuticals and supplements.

Sweet man. How much do you take? Just the standard dose before every meal?

I'll study your liver treatise with great interest, Hans. For the past year I've taken an assortment of RPF-recommended supplements re: NAFLD (after an MRI and ultrasound showing diffusely fatty liver). Choline bitartrate, MK4, niacinamide, E succinate, caffeine. I also lost 12 pounds. After 10 months, tests showed substantially lowered liver enzymes (ALT, AST), but follow up MRI and FibroScan showed an unchanged liver in terms of diffuse fat still. Doc says liver enzymes "often go up and down" as if to dismiss any progress the lowered enzymes might suggest. My question: am I ANY better off now re: my fatty liver than I was say a year ago?

One would have expected liver fat to decline as you lost a good amount of weight. Reduced liver enzymes is definitely a good sign. I would not disregard it. Have you measured free fatty acids, cholesterol and trigs perhaps?

 

[Mossy]

I'd probably experiment with liver supportive supplements to see which ones I do not react negatively to. Have you tried taurine/TUDCA and even reacted negatively to those?

Taurine is one of my most successful, but still can give side effects: dehydration, grogginess, and overall malaise. But, the initial effect always makes me feel great. So, it must be helping my liver in some way. I think taurine is where I’ll start again. Thanks.

 

[Lokzo]

Amazing article dude.

 

[Hans]

Amazing article dude.

Thanks man.

 

[Fidelio]

The safety and efficacy of a silymarin and selenium combination in men after radical prostatectomy - a six month placebo-controlled double-blind cl... - PubMed - NCBI

"Thirty seven participants, 2-3 months after RP, were randomly assigned to receive 570 mg of silymarin and 240 µg of selenium as selenomethionine (n = 19, SM-Se group) or placebo (n = 18, Placebo group) daily for six months. Both groups had similar clinical and demographic characteristics. Physical examination, QoL score, haematology, basic clinical chemistry and oxidative stress markers, selenium and testosterone levels, antioxidant status were evaluated at baseline, at 3 and 6 months.

RESULTS:
The six months administration of silymarin and selenium improved the QoL score, decreased low density lipoproteins (LDL) and total cholesterol and, increased serum selenium levels. The combination had no effect on blood antioxidant status and no influence on testosterone level."​

Milk thistle can be estrogenic in higher doses, but in small doses, the benefits outweigh the negatives.

Cmon dude. You run a men’s health blog but still care about testosterone levels? It’s 2020. We know all that testosterone nonsense was just marketing. The androgen receptor is what’s important and that’s fully saturated below 600ng/dl - aka every man unless suffering from hypogonadism, nutrient deficiencies or old age.

Muscle Androgen Receptor Content but Not Systemic Hormones Is Associated With Resistance Training-Induced Skeletal Muscle Hypertrophy in Healthy, Young Men

Silymarin inhibits function of the androgen receptor by reducing nuclear localization of the receptor in the human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP. - PubMed - NCBI

What’s important is avoiding androgen antagonists (ie milk thistle, green tea, berberine, resveratrol etc) and increasing androgen receptor density (sprinting/heavy lifting, tribulus, l-carnitine injections, prenatal DHT levels or steroids)

 

[Hans]

Cmon dude. You run a men’s health blog but still care about testosterone levels? It’s 2020. We know all that testosterone nonsense was just marketing. The androgen receptor is what’s important and that’s fully saturated below 600ng/dl - aka every man unless suffering from hypogonadism, nutrient deficiencies or old age.

Muscle Androgen Receptor Content but Not Systemic Hormones Is Associated With Resistance Training-Induced Skeletal Muscle Hypertrophy in Healthy, Young Men

Silymarin inhibits function of the androgen receptor by reducing nuclear localization of the receptor in the human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP. - PubMed - NCBI

What’s important is avoiding androgen antagonists (ie milk thistle, green tea, berberine, resveratrol etc) and increasing androgen receptor density (sprinting/heavy lifting, tribulus, l-carnitine injections, prenatal DHT levels or steroids)

Testosterone has more actions than just binding to androgen receptors, such as increasing DHT, dopamine, antagonizing cortisol, etc. Testosterone injections have a dose-dependent effect on hypertrophy and that is not mediated through the androgen receptors as levels can go over 3000ng/dl. Meaning testosterone can have effects over 600ng/dl...
The second study you posted is in vitro in prostate cells. It's most likely only region-specific.
Carnitine injections? You're aware that carnitine is a thyroid antagonist and that fat oxidation is increased in cancer metabolism as well as many other diseases.

 

[brocktoon]

Cmon dude. You run a men’s health blog but still care about testosterone levels? It’s 2020. We know all that testosterone nonsense was just marketing. The androgen receptor is what’s important and that’s fully saturated below 600ng/dl - aka every man unless suffering from hypogonadism, nutrient deficiencies or old age...

What’s important is avoiding androgen antagonists (ie milk thistle, green tea, berberine, resveratrol etc) and increasing androgen receptor density (sprinting/heavy lifting, tribulus, l-carnitine injections, prenatal DHT levels or steroids)

OK, and how does all that relate to clearing out/improving one's liver?

 

[tankasnowgod]

The androgen receptor is what’s important and that’s fully saturated below 600ng/dl - aka every man unless suffering from hypogonadism, nutrient deficiencies or old age.

C'mon, dude. By your own logic, you're on a Ray Peat forum and talking about "receptors?" It's 2020, dude.

 

[brocktoon]

C'mon, dude. By your own logic, you're on a Ray Peat forum and talking about "receptors?" It's 2020, dude.

Sounds like calling someone "dude" is the new rude.

 

[Anders86]

 

[David90]

@Hans
I Have used Milk Thistle in the Past (2016-2017). Also Drinking Three Cups of Coffee, using 2g Choline Bitartate as well as 2-3g of Ginger Daily and Vitamin E. Can say for sure, that these Things work for the Liver....

 

[Hans]

@Hans
I Have used Milk Thistle in the Past (2016-2017). Also Drinking Three Cups of Coffee, using 2g Choline Bitartate as well as 2-3g of Ginger Daily and Vitamin E. Can say for sure, that these Things work for the Liver....

Sweet man, thanks for sharing.

 

[Dave Clark]

I like to see these posts, they help educate people like me that do not have a science backround. It helps put the pieces together on how things work. Actually, I appreciate when anyone here posts this type of info, I have learned so much from this forum that I would never had put together with my own research.
I know these things are nuanced and contextual, but I was surprised to see avocado oil in the liver supporting foods, since they have a fair amount of PUFA, which you previously said to stay away from. Just something that struck me, and I was thinking this could confuse someone new to this stuff. I know they are basically MUFA, but I dropped avocado oil because of the PUFA. What are your thoughts on this, and how does olive oil compare?

 

[Hans]

I like to see these posts, they help educate people like me that do not have a science backround. It helps put the pieces together on how things work. Actually, I appreciate when anyone here posts this type of info, I have learned so much from this forum that I would never had put together with my own research.
I know these things are nuanced and contextual, but I was surprised to see avocado oil in the liver supporting foods, since they have a fair amount of PUFA, which you previously said to stay away from. Just something that struck me, and I was thinking this could confuse someone new to this stuff. I know they are basically MUFA, but I dropped avocado oil because of the PUFA. What are your thoughts on this, and how does olive oil compare?

Glad it's helpful.
I was also surprised to find that avocado oil was beneficial, but it contains much less PUFAs and actually a bit of anti-oxidants compared to peoples' normal diets. So a reduction of PUFA in the cell membranes is beneficial, but even lower PUFA intake can be even more beneficial IMO.
Olive oil contains less PUFAs than avocado, but it might be difficult to find a good source. Personally I'd stick with animal fat as it contains about 10 times more saturated fat than PUFA and the fats are more long chain which will be incorporated into the cell membranes and promote cellular function.

 

[Chris-R]

You did a great job. I read the entire article and gained some helpful information from it. I especially appreciate the breakdown of the mechanisms around glycolysis versus oxidative phosphorylation at the level of the mitochondria and how it all relates to ATP. Nice work and thank you.

 

[Dave Clark]

Bitter herbs @Mossy... I like gentian root

Inaut, do you have any experience with bitter melon? Read a lot of good things about it for detox, blood sugar, etc. I know you can't abuse its use, but seems like a lot of eastern cultures use it with success for various conditions.
10 Benefits of Bitter Melon That Makes It Even More Worth Eating

 

[Hans]

You did a great job. I read the entire article and gained some helpful information from it. I especially appreciate the breakdown of the mechanisms around glycolysis versus oxidative phosphorylation at the level of the mitochondria and how it all relates to ATP. Nice work and thank you.

Thanks man, I'm glad you got something good from it.