why does saturated fat + carbs make me fat??

tankasnowgod

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Alpha linoleic acid is one that comes to mind

Hmmm. I've taken ALA supplements in the past, and nothing at all like what you are describing.

The closest I've come to fat being stimulatory is using coconut oil in cooking, traditionally with potatoes. I usually get the faster heartbeat and rise and temp that Peat mentioned in his Coconut Oil article. But that usually has to be CO and some sort of carb. Didn't really notice it on it's own, or even using coconut creme in coffee.

I've never noticed any sort of stimulation after any sort of high pufa food, or even with things like butter and cream. Sometimes, I have noticed it after eating a steak (the famous "meat sweats,"), but that also seems to be more isolated. Maybe that has to do, in part, with the higher stearic acid content?
 

dukesbobby777

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I suppose the long term effects of PUFA consumption could be equated to feelings of cocaine if one were to assume that the increased estrogen in the body were excitatory.

Acute effects of higher PUFA meals, for me, definitely have that feeling of torpor (post meal).
 

tankasnowgod

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I suppose the long term effects of PUFA consumption could be equated to feelings of cocaine if one were to assume that the increased estrogen in the body were excitatory.

Then why isn't the general population staying up all night partying, rail thin, and having conversations with themselves in the bathroom mirror where they look themselves in the eye, and say, with 100% seriousness...

"YOU...... you OWN this town!"
 

dukesbobby777

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Then why isn't the general population staying up all night partying, rail thin, and having conversations with themselves in the bathroom mirror where they look themselves in the eye, and say, with 100% seriousness...

"YOU...... you OWN this town!"

Lol, some probably are! Nothing surprises me these days.

I just mean excitatory as in estrogen dominant persons with wired, unstable and insomniac brains. Not the getting high/recreational side of it.
 

gaze

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tim berzins from amplified vitality's viewpoint is that saturated fat is more likely than MUFA to cause lipolysis because he thinks saturated fat is preferentially stored which increases the size of the adipose tissues causing inflammation which ultimately leads to FFA release. His view is that fructose and saturated fat are the main causes of fatty liver and that lowering fat and increasing starch is the answer which also inhibits lipolysis and prevents FFA. Of course ray would disagree and say that pufa is preferentially stored, and that the fat created from fructose and saturated fat is protective against pufa, so im not sure. I know for a fact I do worse on starches than fruits, so I tend to lean with peat, but I haven't experimented much with lowering saturated fats and increasing olive oil instead. I think either way its important to keep fats at less than 30% just in general
 
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dukesbobby777

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tim berzins from amplified vitality's viewpoint is that saturated fat is more likely than MUFA to cause lipolysis because he thinks saturated fat is preferentially stored which increases the size of the adipose tissues causing inflammation. His view is that fructose and saturated fat are the main causes of fatty liver and that lowering fat and increasing starch is the answer. Of course ray would disagree and say that pufa is preferentially stored, and that the fat created from fructose and saturated fat is protective against pufa, so im not sure. I know for a fact I do worse on starches than fruits, so I tend to lean with peat, but I haven't experimented much with lowering saturated fats and increasing olive oil instead. I think either way its important to keep fats at less than 30% just in general

Are those his latest views? When I watched some of his videos (from a while back), he was very big on fruit and touched upon the blood sugar issue of starches.
 

gaze

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Are those his latest views? When I watched some of his videos (from a while back), he was very big on fruit and touched upon the blood sugar issue of starches.
Thats what he said in the comment section on a post in the Ray peat facebook page a couple months ago. I can link the post but youd have to be in the group to see it. Hes still likes fruit and saturated fats, but favors starches and thinks the other two should be a lesser focus for people with liver fat. I think his video on "liver insulin resistant" touches on it.
 

Hans

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So if you eat a diet that's high in saturated fat and carbs can you still be lean and healthy as long as you watch your caloric intake?
This type of diet seems so normal to me.

If you start the day with a basic breakfast of eggs with fruit, or eggs with sourdough toast & butter then you're already on the high fat, high carb path.
Then for lunch some 85/15 ground beef with a baked potato with butter.
Dinner of quesadillas.

Everything I eat is high-fat and high-carb. I just think it would be miserable eating any other way, but I also think my fat belly is miserable.
Most likely yes. It's just that if you eat high carb high fat but you want to control your calories, it might feel like you're eating too little.
Gut irritation can cause water retention, so cutting out starches can cause a drop in water weight and give the appearance of "leaning out" and fat loss.
 

Hans

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saturated fat is more likely than MUFA to cause lipolysis because he thinks saturated fat is preferentially stored which increases the size of the adipose tissues causing inflammation which ultimately leads to FFA release
That's not true. Saturated fat overconsumption stimulates the synthesis of new fat cells, thus keeping their size (and inflammation) normal. PUFAs don't do this, leading to enlarged and inflamed adipocytes. Saturated fat also leads to slightly higher insulin levels, which inhibit lipolysis to a greater extent than PUFAs (and MUFAs).
His view is that fructose and saturated fat are the main causes of fatty liver and that lowering fat and increasing starch is the answer which also inhibits lipolysis and prevents FFA.
Fatty liver is because of excess lipolysis and lipogenesis and reduced ability of the liver cells to oxidize the fat fast enough. Inflammation (from endotoxins and PUFAs) causes excess lipolysis and these fatty acids accumulate in the liver as triglycerides. If they are PUFAs, they will also cause inflammation in the liver.
A highly reduced state (low NAD:NADH), hyperinsulinemia and elevated stress hormones stimulate lipogenesis which create fat from carbs. Starches are much more insulinogenic than fruit and are much more likely to cause gut irritation as well. Excess iron can also cause excess lipogenesis, whereas copper opposes it. As I've mentioned before, copper requirements go up on a high fructose diet.
Fruit is less insulinogenic and less likely to cause gut irritation, which reduces lipogenesis. Also, none of the human studies that I've seen has actually shown that fruit or fruit juice causes fatty liver, elevated trigs or cholesterol.
 

gaze

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That's not true. Saturated fat overconsumption stimulates the synthesis of new fat cells, thus keeping their size (and inflammation) normal. PUFAs don't do this, leading to enlarged and inflamed adipocytes. Saturated fat also leads to slightly higher insulin levels, which inhibit lipolysis to a greater extent than PUFAs (and MUFAs).

Fatty liver is because of excess lipolysis and lipogenesis and reduced ability of the liver cells to oxidize the fat fast enough. Inflammation (from endotoxins and PUFAs) causes excess lipolysis and these fatty acids accumulate in the liver as triglycerides. If they are PUFAs, they will also cause inflammation in the liver.
A highly reduced state (low NAD:NADH), hyperinsulinemia and elevated stress hormones stimulate lipogenesis which create fat from carbs. Starches are much more insulinogenic than fruit and are much more likely to cause gut irritation as well. Excess iron can also cause excess lipogenesis, whereas copper opposes it. As I've mentioned before, copper requirements go up on a high fructose diet.
Fruit is less insulinogenic and less likely to cause gut irritation, which reduces lipogenesis. Also, none of the human studies that I've seen has actually shown that fruit or fruit juice causes fatty liver, elevated trigs or cholesterol.
I think I tend to agree with all of that. however, it does all ultimately come down to gut irritation, that's where most of the damage happens with health problems. and in america finding enough fruits to use as dietary staples that don't cause irritation is tough. Ray himself already avoids nearly every fruit because of improper growing methods causin the pectin to be problematic, and even then the OJ in america as well is quite junk at least from stores. farmers market oranges are great, but you need like 30 oranges per day to use fruit juice as 50% of the calories, which tends to break the bank quite a bit. the ultimate question of a peat diet is whether store bought OJ is better or white rice/potatoes. I think it's up to the individual but there's downsides to both
 

Hans

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I think I tend to agree with all of that. however, it does all ultimately come down to gut irritation, that's where most of the damage happens with health problems. and in america finding enough fruits to use as dietary staples that don't cause irritation is tough. Ray himself already avoids nearly every fruit because of improper growing methods causin the pectin to be problematic, and even then the OJ in america as well is quite junk at least from stores. farmers market oranges are great, but you need like 30 oranges per day to use fruit juice as 50% of the calories, which tends to break the bank quite a bit. the ultimate question of a peat diet is whether store bought OJ is better or white rice/potatoes. I think it's up to the individual but there's downsides to both
Gut irritation is a big deal for sure, but most juice in America is made from concentrate with added sugar, and that's exactly the fruit juice they used in some of the studies. I prefer store-bought fruit juice over starches, but this is person specific if they react negatively to starches or not.
 

gaze

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Gut irritation is a big deal for sure, but most juice in America is made from concentrate with added sugar, and that's exactly the fruit juice they used in some of the studies. I prefer store-bought fruit juice over starches, but this is person specific if they react negatively to starches or not.
I don't have much experience with concentrates, but the ordinary fruit juice in a carton that's not from concentrate is generally not that ripe, and i suspect many of them have added citric acid. I may try using frozen concentrate because I think that may be more likely to be packaged riper, although i'm not sure.

My main fascination with starch is from the anabolic properties of insulin. If we know insulin lowers FFA, lowers cortisol, puts amino acids into muscles, and can help build bones, it would seem like eating high insulin starches to the point at which it doesn't cause a insulin crash would be more beneficial then less insulinogenic fruits. of course the insulin crash, the endotoxin, gut irritation all increase cortisol and free fatty acids long term, which is why starch remains as a permanent question mark.
 

Sefton10

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the ultimate question of a peat diet is whether store bought OJ is better or white rice/potatoes. I think it's up to the individual but there's downsides to both
It's incredible how much time I spend reading and thinking about all this stuff only to end up back at this dilemma.
 

AndrogenicJB

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Saturated fat with sugar tastes amazing and it's too easy to overeat on it. Just drink coffee with cream and sugar and you'll know what I'm talking about.
You almost always find saturated fat with high carb foods, such as potatoes and butter, coffee, sugar and cream, milkshakes, ice cream, etc., but you also find high carb with high PUFA, such as baked goodies, etc.
Both groups that eat PUFA or SFA with carbs are fat. If you control calories, both groups will lose fat. One group will be healthier than the other group, but it's also highly individual. Some people simply don't do that well on dairy fat, but better on red meat fat, so they have to experiment accordingly.

Many studies find that one diet is better than the other in the short term (few weeks to a few months), however, they both result in the same weight loss or weight gain over the course of 1+ year. The only macro that speeds up fat loss or prevents excess weight gain is protein. And not a lot of people eat enough protein.
I don't understand the issue around this. Every morning I have a huge shake with 150 grams of carbs, sometimes 60-70g fat and 70 grams of protein and feel perfect. Takes a while to digest but You get long sustained energy. I think if you are metabolically and hormonally healthy mixing doesnt matter. You have to get all your macros in at some point.
 

Hans

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I don't understand the issue around this. Every morning I have a huge shake with 150 grams of carbs, sometimes 60-70g fat and 70 grams of protein and feel perfect. Takes a while to digest but You get long sustained energy. I think if you are metabolically and hormonally healthy mixing doesnt matter. You have to get all your macros in at some point.
Everyone is different and responds differently to different combinations. And not just macro combinations, but also the kind of foods being combined. So it takes some experimentation to find what works. Some people might think they're doing fine, but once they experiment a little, they realize that they feel a lot better on a different mix that digests better or that sustains blood sugar better, etc.
 

AndrogenicJB

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Everyone is different and responds differently to different combinations. And not just macro combinations, but also the kind of foods being combined. So it takes some experimentation to find what works. Some people might think they're doing fine, but once they experiment a little, they realize that they feel a lot better on a different mix that digests better or that sustains blood sugar better, etc.
Do you think that all most people who consume sugar need is adequate choline intake to help the liver
 

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