When “healthy” athleticism turns on you

[yerrag]

I agree with one exception- heart rate. Not that I agree with the very low heart rate of "fit" people of 40, but heart rate being high isn't a reliable metric either.

If everyone has the same heart pumping efficiency, sure, heart rate would be a good measure of metabolism. But that isn't the case. So, one could have a higher metabolism and have a lower heart rate than the next guy with a higher heart rate because his heart is more efficient at pumping blood.

Heart rate merely measures the rate at which the heart pumps, but doesn't take into account the amount of volume of blood pumped with each pumping cycle. The higher the volume pumped in each cycle, the more efficient the heart pumps.

The flow of blood in our body isn't all due to the heart pumping. The heart can be considered as a booster pump, where there is an existing flow that is not enough by itself to feed blood all around the body, and needs the heart to add additional pressure to boost the flow all around the body. This is as I understand it to be, and I would welcome any correction to this.

With this in mind, there is a metric that can be used that would measure the percentage of flow that is generated by the heart. This ranges from slightly above zero for a very weak heart to 20% for a very healthy heart. This metric is called the perfusion index (PI). The flow generated from the heart is called the pulsatile flow, where pulsatile comes from the world pulse, which would signify the flow coming from the beating of the heart, or the heartbeat.

Until last year, it was hard to measure the PI without spending a lot for it. Now, one can buy a pulse oximeter that has this feature for a little over $20. I've been using it for half a year now, in place of using heart rate as my metric. For me, it is a quantitative equivalent of a qualitative tool used by herbal doctors such as TCM doctors and western herbal doctors, where they feel a patient's pulse to see how strong or weak it is, how fast or slow it is, and how regular the strength or rate is.

I think it is a superior metric. I started out last year with a PI that ranges from 5 to 8. This year, the range is from 8 to 12, as a result of some improvements I've made with approaching my high blood pressure. I'm not so sure if this is the way to go in getting an objective measure of metabolism, as I couldn't get anyone in RPF to break out of their mould (did I say an a PI-enabled oximeter costs a little over $20") in using PI instead of heart rate, such that what I say is my own n =1. But I am pretty sure heart rate as a metric is not reliable. Even for me alone, I could not see an increase in heart rate as indicating with certainty an increase in metabolic rate. What more if I were to compare my metabolism with someone else.

But with PI, maybe I could do that. As what more could determine metabolic capability than knowing how much your heart is contributing to the total flow of blood, as the more the heart's contribution the more likely more nutrients, especially sugar and oxygen, is being supplied to the body for metabolism.

 

[cjm]

That's great about the protein man. It's Tony Holler.

Thanks. Interesting guy: "Tony retired from teaching chemistry after 38 years in the classroom and has 39 years of coaching experience (football, basketball, and track)." (link)

For me, it is a quantitative equivalent of a qualitative tool used by herbal doctors such as TCM doctors and western herbal doctors, where they feel a patient's pulse to see how strong or weak it is, how fast or slow it is, and how regular the strength or rate is.

I bought a pulse oximeter after reading you post about this before. I like your rationale for using PI but you can get a lot of information with a chest strap monitor that can track HRV. What are your thoughts on using HRV, or even measuring the frequency output of the heart? I use an app called Welltory. There are a ton of metrics.

This was a particularly bad day:

 

[yerrag]

Thanks. Interesting guy: "Tony retired from teaching chemistry after 38 years in the classroom and has 39 years of coaching experience (football, basketball, and track)." (link)



I bought a pulse oximeter after reading you post about this before. I like your rationale for using PI but you can get a lot of information with a chest strap monitor that can track HRV. What are your thoughts on using HRV, or even measuring the frequency output of the heart? I use an app called Welltory. There are a ton of metrics.

This was a particularly bad day:

View attachment 23655

I've read about HRV before. I couldn't quite understand it as it goes into explanations and concepts I couldn't relate to. I understand that there is some parasympathetic and sympathetic activity related to how it is expressed in that higher variability is a good sign of ANS balance. But I still cannot really relate variability to metabolic rate in the way that I can relate PI to metabolic rate, far better than how I relate to metabolic rate using heart rate.

I don't know if I'm making sense. I hope I am.

 

[yerrag]

Thanks. Interesting guy: "Tony retired from teaching chemistry after 38 years in the classroom and has 39 years of coaching experience (football, basketball, and track)." (link)



I bought a pulse oximeter after reading you post about this before. I like your rationale for using PI but you can get a lot of information with a chest strap monitor that can track HRV. What are your thoughts on using HRV, or even measuring the frequency output of the heart? I use an app called Welltory. There are a ton of metrics.

This was a particularly bad day:

View attachment 23655

That's a cool graph. I should check HRV again. Can you provide links that have explanations that are simple enough as I haven't seen it explained well enough for me to grasp well its concepts.

 

[cjm]

That's a cool graph. I should check HRV again. Can you provide links that have explanations that are simple enough as I haven't seen it explained well enough for me to grasp well its concepts.

Let me see what I can find. Here's a proper start: Science behind Welltory

What Is Heart Rate Variability? How to understand and check it - Welltory

"There are also some more sophisticated parameters of frequency-domain analysis, which, for example, Welltory carries out with a 300 beat-long user measurement.

These are spectral analysis components like

• Total Power — reflects the total power of HF, LF, and VLF waves. This shows how much power the body has, and how well it’s adapting to stress. This value drops when you’re over-stressed or sick.
• HF (High frequency) — shows the power of high-frequency waves produced by the parasympathetic nervous system. The higher this number is, the more relaxed you are.
• LF (Low frequency) — shows the power of low-frequency waves produced by the sympathetic nervous system. The higher it is, the more mobilized your body’s systems are.
• VLF (Very low frequency)— shows the power of very low frequency waves, which show how the heart is affected by hormones and reflexes. If it’s too high, this means the body is exhausted or sick, and the autonomic nervous system isn’t coping well with stress.
• LF/HF — shows which system is working harder: parasympathetic or sympathetic. A value over 2 means the body’s systems are too mobilized, and a value of less than 1 means you’re relaxed. A value between 1 & 2 means your systems are balanced.
• HF/LF/VLF (Wave balance) — shows the power of high frequency (HF) waves, low frequency (LF) waves and very low frequency (VLF) waves. This shows which system is currently regulating the heart’s activity. The higher the HF value, the more relaxed the body is. The higher the LF value, the more mobilized the body. If the VLF is more active – the body is exhausted or sick and not coping with stress."

It does track sympathetic vs parasympathetic activity and something they call coherence -- synchronization of brain, heart, and lungs (?) -- it's odd that I would be highly coherent with a very weak "pump" (this chart is from the same reading as the other chart)

 

[Hans]

I despair now thinking back to the days when I would be buzzing when my RHR was 38 or 39. I thought I was the epitome of health

Haha, did you have any health problems back then or just annoying symptoms such as cold hands and feet?

 

[Hans]

Awsome article @Hans! Are you gonna write a follow up article discusing how recovery should be done?

Thanks man! I wasn't planning on it but now it's on the list, thanks for the request.

 

[Hans]

But AMPK dont block or decrease glucose oxidation but it just increase lipid oxidation when glucose is not avalible very well (sleep) it actualy can help with sleep, because if lipid oxidation during sleep is increased, your body dost use that much liver glycogen and then u dont wake up on empty liver glycogen no ? AMPK increased during training can be benefical if still eating alot carbs during day. AMPK give signals to body to better utilize carbs to glycogen storages

Yes, but doing prolonged cardio will enhance fat oxidation regardless, so at the end of the day you'll still be relying more on fat oxidation than glucose oxidation. The main point is that cardio shifts someone away from glucose oxidation and that reduces stress adaptivity. That's why cardio people have lots of inflammation and necrosis after training. These scar tissue remain for a long time.
But regardless if glucose is continually consumed during an exhaustive event, damage still occurs.

 

[Hans]

I agree with one exception- heart rate. Not that I agree with the very low heart rate of "fit" people of 40, but heart rate being high isn't a reliable metric either.

If everyone has the same heart pumping efficiency, sure, heart rate would be a good measure of metabolism. But that isn't the case. So, one could have a higher metabolism and have a lower heart rate than the next guy with a higher heart rate because his heart is more efficient at pumping blood.

Heart rate merely measures the rate at which the heart pumps, but doesn't take into account the amount of volume of blood pumped with each pumping cycle. The higher the volume pumped in each cycle, the more efficient the heart pumps.

The flow of blood in our body isn't all due to the heart pumping. The heart can be considered as a booster pump, where there is an existing flow that is not enough by itself to feed blood all around the body, and needs the heart to add additional pressure to boost the flow all around the body. This is as I understand it to be, and I would welcome any correction to this.

With this in mind, there is a metric that can be used that would measure the percentage of flow that is generated by the heart. This ranges from slightly above zero for a very weak heart to 20% for a very healthy heart. This metric is called the perfusion index (PI). The flow generated from the heart is called the pulsatile flow, where pulsatile comes from the world pulse, which would signify the flow coming from the beating of the heart, or the heartbeat.

Until last year, it was hard to measure the PI without spending a lot for it. Now, one can buy a pulse oximeter that has this feature for a little over $20. I've been using it for half a year now, in place of using heart rate as my metric. For me, it is a quantitative equivalent of a qualitative tool used by herbal doctors such as TCM doctors and western herbal doctors, where they feel a patient's pulse to see how strong or weak it is, how fast or slow it is, and how regular the strength or rate is.

I think it is a superior metric. I started out last year with a PI that ranges from 5 to 8. This year, the range is from 8 to 12, as a result of some improvements I've made with approaching my high blood pressure. I'm not so sure if this is the way to go in getting an objective measure of metabolism, as I couldn't get anyone in RPF to break out of their mould (did I say an a PI-enabled oximeter costs a little over $20") in using PI instead of heart rate, such that what I say is my own n =1. But I am pretty sure heart rate as a metric is not reliable. Even for me alone, I could not see an increase in heart rate as indicating with certainty an increase in metabolic rate. What more if I were to compare my metabolism with someone else.

But with PI, maybe I could do that. As what more could determine metabolic capability than knowing how much your heart is contributing to the total flow of blood, as the more the heart's contribution the more likely more nutrients, especially sugar and oxygen, is being supplied to the body for metabolism.

I agree with what you're saying and heart rate should be viewed together with the other measures as well. An athlete will have a lower heart rate, but those people who have a heart rate of around 40 and most of the also hypothyroid.

Great tip on the PI that you can measure with the pulse oximeter.

 

[OccamzRazer]

Great stuff! Did not know that endurance exercise affected prolactin so quickly. Thankful that my grueling endurance sports days are over lol.

Do you think, tho, that the enjoyability of an exercise makes it less stressful - and better for hormones?

Dr. Peat has a quote out there somewhere about learning being more effective when it's spontaneous, not forced. Perhaps exercise is the same way.

One Appalachian trial hiker simultaneously boosted his T and reduced his cortisol levels, despite the apparent overreaching/overtraining: The Secret to Ultimate Fitness? Thru-Hiking.

Even at 5% bodyfat he had high T! Guessing he was out there having fun, in addition to being out in nature and getting lots of sunshine and all...

 

[Hans]

Great stuff! Did not know that endurance exercise affected prolactin so quickly. Thankful that my grueling endurance sports days are over lol.

Do you think, tho, that the enjoyability of an exercise makes it less stressful - and better for hormones?

Dr. Peat has a quote out there somewhere about learning being more effective when it's spontaneous, not forced. Perhaps exercise is the same way.

One Appalachian trial hiker simultaneously boosted his T and reduced his cortisol levels, despite the apparent overreaching/overtraining: The Secret to Ultimate Fitness? Thru-Hiking.

Even at 5% bodyfat he had high T! Guessing he was out there having fun, in addition to being out in nature and getting lots of sunshine and all...

Yeah for sure, fun places a big role...but only to a point. Induced stress no matter how fun is still harmful. :)

 

[Sefton10]

Interesting study on correlation between low heart rate and criminality

Resting Heart Rate and Violent Criminality

This population epidemiology study of more than 700 000 Swedish men reports that low resting heart rate in late adolescence was associated with an increased risk for violent criminality, nonviolent criminality, exposure to assault, and unintentional injuries in adulthood.

jamanetwork.com

 

[Hans]

Interesting study on correlation between low heart rate and criminality

Resting Heart Rate and Violent Criminality

This population epidemiology study of more than 700 000 Swedish men reports that low resting heart rate in late adolescence was associated with an increased risk for violent criminality, nonviolent criminality, exposure to assault, and unintentional injuries in adulthood.

jamanetwork.com

For sure, since hypothyroidism is known to be involved in all kinds of mental conditions, and combine that with cortisol (and maladaptation to stress), then that's a bad mix.

 

[yerrag]

Let me see what I can find. Here's a proper start: Science behind Welltory

What Is Heart Rate Variability? How to understand and check it - Welltory

"There are also some more sophisticated parameters of frequency-domain analysis, which, for example, Welltory carries out with a 300 beat-long user measurement.

These are spectral analysis components like

• Total Power — reflects the total power of HF, LF, and VLF waves. This shows how much power the body has, and how well it’s adapting to stress. This value drops when you’re over-stressed or sick.
• HF (High frequency) — shows the power of high-frequency waves produced by the parasympathetic nervous system. The higher this number is, the more relaxed you are.
• LF (Low frequency) — shows the power of low-frequency waves produced by the sympathetic nervous system. The higher it is, the more mobilized your body’s systems are.
• VLF (Very low frequency)— shows the power of very low frequency waves, which show how the heart is affected by hormones and reflexes. If it’s too high, this means the body is exhausted or sick, and the autonomic nervous system isn’t coping well with stress.
• LF/HF — shows which system is working harder: parasympathetic or sympathetic. A value over 2 means the body’s systems are too mobilized, and a value of less than 1 means you’re relaxed. A value between 1 & 2 means your systems are balanced.
• HF/LF/VLF (Wave balance) — shows the power of high frequency (HF) waves, low frequency (LF) waves and very low frequency (VLF) waves. This shows which system is currently regulating the heart’s activity. The higher the HF value, the more relaxed the body is. The higher the LF value, the more mobilized the body. If the VLF is more active – the body is exhausted or sick and not coping with stress."

It does track sympathetic vs parasympathetic activity and something they call coherence -- synchronization of brain, heart, and lungs (?) -- it's odd that I would be highly coherent with a very weak "pump" (this chart is from the same reading as the other chart)

View attachment 23657

Thanks. I'll read up on it and get back to you once I'm done going through the material.

 

[Michael Mohn]

For sure, since hypothyroidism is known to be involved in all kinds of mental conditions, and combine that with cortisol (and maladaptation to stress), then that's a bad mix.

Your last video had very bad audio almost couldn't hear you. Just throw it in here.

 

[jerry.j]

I agree with one exception- heart rate. Not that I agree with the very low heart rate of "fit" people of 40, but heart rate being high isn't a reliable metric either.

If everyone has the same heart pumping efficiency, sure, heart rate would be a good measure of metabolism. But that isn't the case. So, one could have a higher metabolism and have a lower heart rate than the next guy with a higher heart rate because his heart is more efficient at pumping blood.

Heart rate merely measures the rate at which the heart pumps, but doesn't take into account the amount of volume of blood pumped with each pumping cycle. The higher the volume pumped in each cycle, the more efficient the heart pumps.

The flow of blood in our body isn't all due to the heart pumping. The heart can be considered as a booster pump, where there is an existing flow that is not enough by itself to feed blood all around the body, and needs the heart to add additional pressure to boost the flow all around the body. This is as I understand it to be, and I would welcome any correction to this.

With this in mind, there is a metric that can be used that would measure the percentage of flow that is generated by the heart. This ranges from slightly above zero for a very weak heart to 20% for a very healthy heart. This metric is called the perfusion index (PI). The flow generated from the heart is called the pulsatile flow, where pulsatile comes from the world pulse, which would signify the flow coming from the beating of the heart, or the heartbeat.

Until last year, it was hard to measure the PI without spending a lot for it. Now, one can buy a pulse oximeter that has this feature for a little over $20. I've been using it for half a year now, in place of using heart rate as my metric. For me, it is a quantitative equivalent of a qualitative tool used by herbal doctors such as TCM doctors and western herbal doctors, where they feel a patient's pulse to see how strong or weak it is, how fast or slow it is, and how regular the strength or rate is.

I think it is a superior metric. I started out last year with a PI that ranges from 5 to 8. This year, the range is from 8 to 12, as a result of some improvements I've made with approaching my high blood pressure. I'm not so sure if this is the way to go in getting an objective measure of metabolism, as I couldn't get anyone in RPF to break out of their mould (did I say an a PI-enabled oximeter costs a little over $20") in using PI instead of heart rate, such that what I say is my own n =1. But I am pretty sure heart rate as a metric is not reliable. Even for me alone, I could not see an increase in heart rate as indicating with certainty an increase in metabolic rate. What more if I were to compare my metabolism with someone else.

But with PI, maybe I could do that. As what more could determine metabolic capability than knowing how much your heart is contributing to the total flow of blood, as the more the heart's contribution the more likely more nutrients, especially sugar and oxygen, is being supplied to the body for metabolism.

Precisely my thought on pulse. The underlying reason people here say that BPM is an indication of metabolic health is because they are using BPM as an indirect measurement of cardiac output. But cardiac output = BPM x stroke volume and more than just excessive aerobic exercise impacts stroke volume. Even if it were only aerobic exercise that increases stroke volume, any increase is not necessarily bad.

Didn't know about perfusion index. Ordered a pulse oximeter with PI just now.

 

[yerrag]

Precisely my thought on pulse. The underlying reason people here say that BPM is an indication of metabolic health is because they are using BPM as an indirect measurement of cardiac output. But cardiac output = BPM x stroke volume and more than just excessive aerobic exercise impacts stroke volume. Even if it were only aerobic exercise that increases stroke volume, any increase is not necessarily bad.

Didn't know about perfusion index. Ordered a pulse oximeter with PI just now.

I don't know that is, but the use of PI isn't widespread. I can't find much literature or studies on it. Maybe it's because a low cost device to measure it wasn't available till recently.

But thanks for ordering one. When you get one and get to use it, pm me so we can share notes.

 

[aadrock]

SO @Hans how often do you train per week? and at what intensity? heavy or low weights? do you still gain muscle or not looking for this? just an overview is what i am asking. i kind of agree that i used to train about 5 days a week but this soon got hard after a few years and now 3 times per week i feel best i think. just how i feel about it.

 

[Hans]

Your last video had very bad audio almost couldn't hear you. Just throw it in here.

Are you referring to the vid related to this article/thread? Because I can't find any fault with the audio. Clarity and everything seem good to me.

 

[Hans]

SO @Hans how often do you train per week? and at what intensity? heavy or low weights? do you still gain muscle or not looking for this? just an overview is what i am asking. i kind of agree that i used to train about 5 days a week but this soon got hard after a few years and now 3 times per week i feel best i think. just how i feel about it.

3 days at the moment. I was doing a full body split for 3-4 months low volume (3 sets per muscle group) where I lifted 3 days a week and gained some muscle and definition. Am switching to a different style, not full body, but still going to train 3 days a week for the next 6-9 months. After that I might come back to the full body split and compare, we'll see. I definitely liked doing a full body split.
The full body split was between 4-12 reps, depending on the exercise. So mostly heavy and moderate intensity. I'd say I'm close to my genetic potential at 100kg, 5'8", 18" arms, but I'm going to push it this next 6-9 months and see if I can add extra mass, try to go 18,5-19" arms (mass in general ofc). But my main goal with this new cycle is strength.