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Thanks manalpha, I believe, needs to be dominant but not sure by how much
I think as Travis and others were saying supplementing high ratio alpha tocopherol reduces the concentration of gamma tocopherols. This section of the examine.com post summarizes the findings
Vitamin E Supplement — Health Benefits, Dosage, Side Effects
3.2. Serum
Oral ingestion of pure α-tocopherol supplements is known to dose-dependently reduce circulating concentrations of γ-tocopherol, with a 36-42% increase in basal α-tocopherol being met with a 28-61% reduction in γ-tocopherol.[9] This reduction in γ-tocopherol also seems to extend to red blood cells when they experience an increase in α-tocopherol,[93] and has been repeatedly noted either inherently or when combined with fish oil supplementation.[94][95][96] Supplementation of γ-tocopherol in isolation (up to 200mg over five weeks) conversely does not reduce circulating α-tocopherol concentrations,[97][98] and in trials using mixed tocopherol supplements it appears that 63% γ-tocopherol (315mg of a 500mg vitamin E supplement) is sufficient to elevate γ-tocopherol despite coingesting α-tocopherol (15%).[99]
Ingesting α-tocopherol (either natural or synthetic) in isolation appears to reduce circulating levels of γ-tocopherol, whereas the opposite does not appear to exist. Supplementing approximately equal levels of the two is thought to be sufficient to prevent a decrease in plasma γ-tocopherol.
It is thought that the reduction in serum γ-tocopherol comes secondary to α-tocopherol inducing secretion of vLDL particles rich in α-tocopherol,[100] as there does not appear to be competitive inhibition in the absorption of the two molecules from the intestines.[101]
Most blends have too little gamma-tocopherol.The gamma and alpha ratio must be at least equal. Gamma-tocopherol is important and must not be depleted. Nothing else matters.
Hi yerrag-Most blends have too little gamma-tocopherol.
And so I ordered this and will use it soon:
Amazon product ASIN B008OM3DY6View: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B008OM3DY6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
I only used half of it, saving the rest for later use.Hi yerrag-
Do you still take this E supplement? Mind giving an update? Thank you in advance-
I have no choice but to compound my own vitamin E with cyclodextrins, as it makes the vitamin E more effective in removing foam cells that contain oxidized LDL. The term "oxidized LDL" is a misnomer because Ray says they continue to oxidize and not only that, they are even a stronger source of lipid peroxidation. They should be called "oxidizing LDL."Wow, you certainly are innovative and not afraid of challenges to find solutions. I sure don't have the level of knowledge you seem to, and a lot of the stuff on the forum has to be made very simple for my understanding. I really appreciate when someone will answer my questions and help me understand things better, without making me feel dumb, or by not answering my questions. So, thank you!
Do you supplement any E right now? I was looking at this one which someone here might have posted. It's not cheap, but I like that it's not soy-derived, and seems to have a pretty good balance of the E forms. I am finishing up Unique E and E Succinate I use occasionally.
Amazon product ASIN B000FGWDRWView: https://www.amazon.com/Thorne-Research-Ultimate-Contains-Natural/dp/B000FGWDRW/ref=sr_1_5?crid=15X2LRJL3HK3&keywords=thorne+ultimate+e&qid=1652313570&sprefix=thorne+ultimate+e%2Caps%2C141&sr=8-5
Thank you again for your time and feedback.
Thank you for your feedback on the Thorne product. I know what you mean about labeling and marketing. And nowadays it seems near-impossible to get a live person to answer questions and if you do, they often don't have answers.I have no choice but to compound my own vitamin E with cyclodextrins, as it makes the vitamin E more effective in removing foam cells that contain oxidized LDL. The term "oxidized LDL" is a misnomer because Ray says they continue to oxidize and not only that, they are even a stronger source of lipid peroxidation. They should be called "oxidizing LDL."
I'm not supplementing any E now. I think I'm doing a good job avoiding PUFAs but when I eat out I'll be sure to take vitamin E when I go home.
The Thorne vitamin E is expensive and they say they have a special process for making the product pure or something like that. And the premium is on account of the source not being soy. At the very least, they still have a good product. There was one brand I checked out before that liked to talk non-GMO yada yada, but sells at a high price in the hope some gullible consumer would jump at it being non-GMO but it really did not have a good mix of vitamin E isomers. And to top it off, the vitamin E was mixed with PUFA.
I personally don't mind that soy is the source of the vitamin E as long as the soy is non-GMO. But that is hard to find it seems, as I believe many brands don't specify their vitamin E comes from non-GMO soy. And if it's not stated, I have to assume that it's GMO.
If you're aware of the dark underbelly of the medical cum legal system, everybody you ask that is an establishment authority or works for that authority, you just know asking them for answers is just as good as asking Google whose answers are curated to to lead you to what the FDA and the AMA wants you to hear.Thank you for your feedback on the Thorne product. I know what you mean about labeling and marketing. And nowadays it seems near-impossible to get a live person to answer questions and if you do, they often don't have answers.
Do you have any experience with Dry E succinate? Seems many prefer that over the oil-based due to reactions. The one I have used is not alpha-only, but the mixed ratio is also not given. I might give the Thorne a try when I run out of supplies.
Can you give a snapshot of one of your typical PUFA-free days- what you eat to achieve that?
Those are tough questions and my understanding of Lp(a) is murky and I don't know have a firm grasp of when the Vitamin C-proline-lysine protocol works and when it doesn't. It seems that high or low Lp(a) states is said to be genetic in origin and if that's the case there's nothing I can do about it and so I don't bother fixing it nor focusing on it. But I also think personally it's a lot of hooey that comes out of focusing too much on depicting cholesterol as a big bad wolf by a little boy with a lab gown. There are even tests available that go as far as determining the size of LDL as if that matters (and I wonder why it does when the composition of LDL circulating in blood is not really indicative of the LDL that has already deposited in the blood vessels). But if the theory of cholesterol as the cause of heart disease is false, which I believe it is, then all these downstream theories and tests arising from a false foundation are not to be taken seriously but wastes our time and effort and diverts us from focusing on the real issue of oxidizing LDL.I have no choice but to compound my own vitamin E with cyclodextrins, as it makes the vitamin E more effective in removing foam cells that contain oxidized LDL. The term "oxidized LDL" is a misnomer because Ray says they continue to oxidize and not only that, they are even a stronger source of lipid peroxidation. They should be called "oxidizing LDL."
I'm not supplementing any E now. I think I'm doing a good job avoiding PUFAs but when I eat out I'll be sure to take vitamin E when I go home.
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
I am interjecting a question pertaining to your polnts above. Based upon your understanding, are foam cells something we all have as oxidized LDL, or related to specific needs you have, such as high LDL or high Lp(a) ? Either way, wouldn't a Vitamin C-proline-lysine protocol help in mitigating the effects of oxidized LDL and/or high Lp(a)? Otherwise, it seems no one can really be helped by Vitamin E since we most certainly suffer from some degree of oxidized LDL in the world in which we live. The best we can do is lessen the intake of PUFA, which you are doing. Forgive me if I missed the point-- I am a layperson.
P.S. I ask about high Lp(a) because I tested high for it about 20 years ago. Doc at the time didn't tell me he was including in blood panel. Scared me to death. But it led me to Linus Pauling protocol, changed diet (removed wheat/gluten grains, tomatoes) read Barry Groves (UK), then fiound Peat. All good!
Your diet sounds very much like mine, so I am thrilled and very much relieved. I think I've had PDS- PUFA DERANGEMENT SYNDROME. Traded worries about Lp(a) for PUFA. The question now is, to supplement Vitamin E or no.
A very big THANK YOU.
Thank you for all your insights and feedback. I will probably continue with the vitamin C regimen for a time, and include vitamin E as needed. And although I didn't mention it here until now, I am on a holy grail quest for answers to recurring dermatitis (I think eczema). Diet is always first on my radar as to cause, but what would I change? I've searched many threads on the forum for "eczema" and seen the gamut, from vitamin A deficiency to gut issues. Any insights you have on this matter I would greatly appreciate (please direct me to appropriate thread so I don't completely hijack this one!).Those are tough questions and my understanding of Lp(a) is murky and I don't know have a firm grasp of when the Vitamin C-proline-lysine protocol works and when it doesn't. It seems that high or low Lp(a) states is said to be genetic in origin and if that's the case there's nothing I can do about it and so I don't bother fixing it nor focusing on it. But I also think personally it's a lot of hooey that comes out of focusing too much on depicting cholesterol as a big bad wolf by a little boy with a lab gown. There are even tests available that go as far as determining the size of LDL as if that matters (and I wonder why it does when the composition of LDL circulating in blood is not really indicative of the LDL that has already deposited in the blood vessels). But if the theory of cholesterol as the cause of heart disease is false, which I believe it is, then all these downstream theories and tests arising from a false foundation are not to be taken seriously but wastes our time and effort and diverts us from focusing on the real issue of oxidizing LDL.
As I understand it, Vitamin C is an antioxidant and the assumption that it helps with eliminating plaque isn't very solid. At best it acts as an antioxidant so it can help with reducing the level of oxidative stress arising from lipid peroxidation from oxidizing LDL. But LDL oxidizing is a continuous process and it may be never-ending when a lot of oxidizing LDL has accumulated in the foam cells which form a large part of the necrotic core in plaque. At best vitamin C is like a fireman dousing a forest fire that will need better ways to totally extinguish it. When the blood vessel is not totally rid of plaque, and when the endothelial lining is scarred, it really has no chance to heal and so the proline and lysine is not going to do much good as it's like a mason laying a layer of plaster over improperly cured cement.
So the focus in my opinion has to be on preventing more oxidizing LDL from lining up the vessel walls and on gently removing the foam cells that contain the oxidizing LDL. The use of vitamin E forms that are mere antioxidants will not help as vitamin E forms that are electrophilic will be able to destroy the foam cells and neutralize the oxidizing LDLs.
Using natural vitamin E and not just the usual alpha-tocopherol isomer won't cut it. The natural form of vitamin has mixed tocopherols that have the alpha, gamma, and delta isomers in them as well as the less known beta isomer. The gamma and delta isomers are electrophilic and would remove the foam cells from plaque. Based on a study shared by Peat which discusses the use of cyclodextrins to enable macrophages to lyse foam cells more effectively, I would incorporate cyclodextrin into a compound that has mixed tocopherols with policosanols added.
But I am experimenting and I experiment on myself and I hope this can be a good start, in the absence of useful solutions from our vaunted big pharma and their battery of experts and funding and evidence-based blah blah. I'm pretty sure I can get somewhere better than be stuck on quicksand and sink.
I'm glad our diet looks the same. It isn't hard to be peaty when we have sweets and it's hard to enjoy foods that are bland and lacking texture when we remove salt and sugar and all fats from our diet. Life has to be enjoyed and as much as we can we want to have our cake and eat it too. Sounds reasonable, don't you think?
It's good to supplement with the right vitamin E no doubt. It doesn't hurt.
You're welcome!
Thank you for all your insights and feedback. I will probably continue with the vitamin C regimen for a time, and include vitamin E as needed. And although I didn't mention it here until now, I am on a holy grail quest for answers to recurring dermatitis (I think eczema). Diet is always first on my radar as to cause, but what would I change? I've searched many threads on the forum for "eczema" and seen the gamut, from vitamin A deficiency to gut issues. Any insights you have on this matter I would greatly appreciate (please direct me to appropriate thread so I don't completely hijack this one!).
Again, going a bit off-topic to original post, but I found this link doing a little reading this morning. It caught my attention because of your comments on endothelium.
SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals
Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.journals.sagepub.com
So true about eczema It is really a symptom, not a cause.The skin is a tough one to call for me. I have issues myself that is hard to resolve. In fact, it was my desire to rid my skin of keloids that got me into into my health journey. While my keloids continue to pester me to no end, I'm glad that in trying to fix it I ended up fixing myself in other areas.
I hope you don't mind I refer to eczema as skin allergy just to simplify the discussion. I also don't really know when people mean the same thing when they say they have eczema.
The causes of skin allergies I can think of are poor digestion of protein that allows undigested protein to get into the blood; the injection of proteins via vaccination; pRobles with the usual path of excretion of waste such as kidneys causing the excretion to be thru the skin...
There are some more that I currently cannot recall that is microbial in nature or also involve toxins.
Any recommended brands?Peat:
"I think mixed tocopherols, with higher delta maybe."
Look up ADM products as they have it in bulk. There's a specific thread on here somewhere, but you can always ask for samples (say you're a business) from them. The one they sent us was a pretty good size. We asked for their vitamin e product that had the highest delta. You can get the different ones if desired as they're nice about getting them out to you.Any recommended brands?