What To Do When Your Gut Bacteria Love Protein

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Ray Peat has written and spoken at length about how to prevent and treat infections of the gut by bacteria that eat starch or fiber. As far as I know, he hasn't talked as much about protein-eating bacteria and how to protect your gut from them.

Would the Peaty antibiotics (penicillin, erythromycin, and the tetracyclines) work as well against protein-eating bacteria as against other kinds? I assume that raw carrots, mushrooms, and charcoal would work about as well no matter what the bacteria eat.

Do you know of other remedies that would help against protein-eating bacteria? Would IdeaLabs' CamphoSal work?

Could fungi in the gut also eat poorly-digested protein?

I understand that in the medium to long term, the best remedies may be good nutrition (quantity and quality) and good thyroid function. I am interested in what someone could do who has a severe infection and needs relief from the infection soon in order to eat properly.

Thanks in advance.
 

orewashin

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How do you know you have a lot of bacteria that feed on protein? Did you get a stool test?
 

Creative Nature

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How do you know you have a lot of bacteria that feed on protein? Did you get a stool test?

I don't know, and yes, a stool test would be useful, but over many months of careful observation and logging, it's clear that I get what seem like severe endotoxin symptoms in response to protein and nothing else.
 

orewashin

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I don't know, and yes, a stool test would be useful, but over many months of careful observation and logging, it's clear that I get what seem like severe endotoxin symptoms in response to protein and nothing else.
It could be a reaction to the protein itself, or the bacteria. I'd recommend a stool test before and after taking a measure that you see as effective against the microbes.
 

Kvothe

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Ray Peat has written and spoken at length about how to prevent and treat infections of the gut by bacteria that eat starch or fiber. As far as I know, he hasn't talked as much about protein-eating bacteria and how to protect your gut from them.

Would the Peaty antibiotics (penicillin, erythromycin, and the tetracyclines) work as well against protein-eating bacteria as against other kinds? I assume that raw carrots, mushrooms, and charcoal would work about as well no matter what the bacteria eat.

Do you know of other remedies that would help against protein-eating bacteria? Would IdeaLabs' CamphoSal work?

Could fungi in the gut also eat poorly-digested protein?

I understand that in the medium to long term, the best remedies may be good nutrition (quantity and quality) and good thyroid function. I am interested in what someone could do who has a severe infection and needs relief from the infection soon in order to eat properly.

Thanks in advance.

Several types of bacteria thrive on undigested amino acids, but the most harmful are probably proteobacteria that are often increased in response to high protein diets. They like sulphur from amino acids like methionine and cysteine. Having some of them is normal and likely beneficial as they reduce some of the sulphur we inevitably consume. But an excess of them probably contributes to increased permeability, endotoxemia, and conditions like colitis. The answer to the problem might be easy: stop eating too much protein (and maybe sulphur-rich vegetables). Decreasing protein intake has many health benefits, many of which might be a direct results of an improved gut microbiome.
 

Creative Nature

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It could be a reaction to the protein itself, or the bacteria. I'd recommend a stool test before and after taking a measure that you see as effective against the microbes.

Thanks. Do you know what's the best/fastest way to go about getting a stool test? Are there specific tests you need to order to detect gut infections? I ask because the health care system to which I have access tends to be slow and bureaucratic, so it's probably best to have my ducks in a row before I even think about contacting them.
 

snacks

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Several types of bacteria thrive on undigested amino acids, but the most harmful are probably proteobacteria that are often increased in response to high protein diets. They like sulphur from amino acids like methionine and cysteine. Having some of them is normal and likely beneficial as they reduce some of the sulphur we inevitably consume. But an excess of them probably contributes to increased permeability, endotoxemia, and conditions like colitis. The answer to the problem might be easy: stop eating too much protein (and maybe sulphur-rich vegetables). Decreasing protein intake has many health benefits, many of which might be a direct results of an improved gut microbiome.

Yeah the idea of proteobacteria scared me a bit so when I came off carnivore the first thing I did was take protein intake very low for a while. It was absolutely miserable, had die off symptoms multiple times a week for 2 weeks. I came back feeling much better and also tolerating protein better though, would recommend giving this a shot
 

Creative Nature

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Several types of bacteria thrive on undigested amino acids, but the most harmful are probably proteobacteria that are often increased in response to high protein diets. They like sulphur from amino acids like methionine and cysteine. Having some of them is normal and likely beneficial as they reduce some of the sulphur we inevitably consume. But an excess of them probably contributes to increased permeability, endotoxemia, and conditions like colitis. The answer to the problem might be easy: stop eating too much protein (and maybe sulphur-rich vegetables). Decreasing protein intake has many health benefits, many of which might be a direct results of an improved gut microbiome.

I appreciate the thoughtful reply. My context is severe protein deficiency rather than protein excess. I have averaged under 50 g of protein per day for very long periods and have had many periods of much lower protein intake (10-20 g/day). I can guarantee you that if you saw what I've eaten over the last two+ years, you would be concerned about deficiency.

Perhaps I have an infection by AA-eating bacteria because I digest protein poorly but simple carbs well, so that undigested AAs are the predominant food (besides raw carrot) reaching my intestine? I eat almost no starch and very little fiber besides the raw carrot.
 

Kvothe

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I appreciate the thoughtful reply. My context is severe protein deficiency rather than protein excess. I have averaged under 50 g of protein per day for very long periods and have had many periods of much lower protein intake (10-20 g/day). I can guarantee you that if you saw what I've eaten over the last two+ years, you would be concerned about deficiency.

Perhaps I have an infection by AA-eating bacteria because I digest protein poorly but simple carbs well, so that undigested AAs are the predominant food (besides raw carrot) reaching my intestine? I eat almost no starch and very little fiber besides the raw carrot.

How do you react to starches? Do you get similar problems when eating them? With SIBO almost anything can cause problems because digestive enzymes are drastically reduced, and the excess bacteria get to the nutrients before you get a chance to absorb them. Sucrose, or equal amounts of glucose and fructose, are one of the few things that can be digested without significant issues in this state.
 

Creative Nature

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Yeah the idea of proteobacteria scared me a bit so when I came off carnivore the first thing I did was take protein intake very low for a while. It was absolutely miserable, had die off symptoms multiple times a week for 2 weeks. I came back feeling much better and also tolerating protein better though, would recommend giving this a shot

On many occasions, I've involuntarily gone for several days in a row with minimal protein intake because my adrenergic and endotoxin symptoms are too severe for me to eat protein. Each time, I'm weaker and less healthy, and I don't think I handle protein any better. Based on this track record, I'm ruling out voluntary fasting. My body simply can't handle it.
 

snacks

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On many occasions, I've involuntarily gone for several days in a row with minimal protein intake because my adrenergic and endotoxin symptoms are too severe for me to eat protein. Each time, I'm weaker and less healthy, and I don't think I handle protein any better. Based on this track record, I'm ruling out voluntary fasting. My body simply can't handle it.

Yeah. With what additional information you've provided I would say STOP speculating and get a stool test immediately. Also for your own sake please dont leave out information that's highly relevant to your situation until midway through a thread. It makes it less likely that you'll get advice that's relevant to you or helpful and could end up hurting ya. Best of luck with your situation
 

Creative Nature

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How do you react to starches? Do you get similar problems when eating them? With SIBO almost anything can cause problems because digestive enzymes are drastically reduced, and the excess bacteria get to the nutrients before you get a chance to absorb them. Sucrose, or equal amounts of glucose and fructose, are one of the few things that can be digested without significant issues in this state.

I don't eat starches often enough in significant quantities to know for sure, but as far as I can tell, only protein triggers this particular problem. I have other problems with starches. I digest fruit juices (my primary carb source) very well.
 

Creative Nature

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Yeah. With what additional information you've provided I would say STOP speculating and get a stool test immediately. Also for your own sake please dont leave out information that's highly relevant to your situation until midway through a thread. It makes it less likely that you'll get advice that's relevant to you or helpful and could end up hurting ya. Best of luck with your situation

Thanks, I take your point about the stool test (and about not speculating) and will try to get it done quickly. If you have any suggestions about the type(s) of stool test that would be useful (I'm not familiar), please let me know.
 

alephx

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For me, the best are the raw carrots. Also, if you are otherwise eating well Low PUFA, a small amount of saturated fat prevents the bad bacteria. Failing that, a couple drops of Lugol’s iodine in your drink does wonders for intestinal bacteria. Bonus points if it is milk with some fat
 

orewashin

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Thanks. Do you know what's the best/fastest way to go about getting a stool test? Are there specific tests you need to order to detect gut infections? I ask because the health care system to which I have access tends to be slow and bureaucratic, so it's probably best to have my ducks in a row before I even think about contacting them.
I got a recommendation for Thryve, which takes a week or two. It costs $80 with a coupon.

The One Gut Bacterium You Have To Boost (and Here’s How)
 

gaze

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What exactly makes these antibiotics Peat approved?

peat himself recommends those, because he say their anti inflammatory, reduce endotoxin, energize the cells, etc. There are some caveats though, like some people are allergic to penicillin, and overusing any antibiotic can be dangerous. I think ray likes small doses to get things moving in the right direction, opposed to week long intervals that the medical community recommends.
 

lvysaur

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I came back feeling much better and also tolerating protein better though, would recommend giving this a shot
How low did you take the protein intake? And do you still tolerate protein as well as you did when you came out of the protein fast?
 
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@Creative Nature I have been taking L.Reuteri for some weeks, with fantastic results, I can probably eat most foods and not get any distress, take that FWIW
I use this one and is very good value


SIBO and L. reuteri | The Undoctored Blog
 
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