Serotonin Production (gut) Depends On Bacteria

[DaveFoster]

You are still stuck in old habits right? I can't believe that easy to digest foods such as well cooked jasmine rice or buckwheat flour pancakes, eggs, good quality whey protein, hydrolyzed collagen, lean muscle meat (chicken, turkey breast), ripe bananas etc.. Will cause any problems with endotoxin or digestion overall... This in combination with smaller portions for one meal every 2-3 hours, eating fruits always alone and most importantly like I said before. Avoiding Gluten, casein, excess of fructose, simply no high foodmap foods. If you can't do this. You can't expect any results..

I hear you. I eat constantly (my blood sugar never drops except when I sleep). I can't tolerate fruit juices. I'll try a ripe and banana and gauge the results. I don't feel good on starch and meat; last time I remember, I tolerate bananas well enough, but they're high in serotonin, so I'll see if there's any difference.

I have a hydrogen breath test scheduled with my primary care, so we'll see if it's SIBO or H. Pylori. If so, prescription antibiotics will be the way to go.

 

[Amazoniac]

All this "sterile gut" or "no bacteria" thing. Why are the most healthy, without allergies and all kind of food intolerances and prone to every bacteria etc.. people who growed up close to the nature, with animals, with daily exposure to dirt etc.. They all have much stronger immune system and they are much healthier overall, than kids who grew up in "sterile" home in the city with lots of antibiotics etc. are all sick as ****. I would really like to hear from Peat or haidut reaction to this.. Btw WE ARE 10% cells and 90% bacteria right? :)

Green guru,
Just because there's more concern with sanitation doesn't mean that the environment is more sterile.
If you don't believe, ask your germaphobe friend what he/she is most terrified of, rural or urban areas. In fact, they problably will mention something along the lines of doorknobs of public bathrooms, subway handrail, bills, even indoor trapped air of crowded places. Basically everything that increases the odds of coming in contact with pathogens. There are some terms for you to search if you're interested on the subject: (disease) avoidance behaviour, behavioural immunity, infection-avoidance behaviour, etc.
Regarding your question in specific, I guess that there's some truth in your comment, because if we theoretically compared the same person in a rural and urban areas; the pathogens caught in an urban area would probably be spread by another human that previsouly probably already tried to eradicate it in some way, and that pathogen probably resisted multiple eradication attempts before it gets to you.
In other words, our (urban) environment is far from sterile and pathogens are likely more evolved and sophisticated when it comes to strategies to exploit humanoids. No different than monocultures in agriculture and specific plagues..

http://charityowl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/crowded-subway-2-charity-owl.jpg

 

[rmgwm]

Are we talking sterile small intestine, or sterile large intestine?...or both? I've read a lot here and I don't buy that we should have a sterile large intestine (i.e. void of any bacteria whatsoever) but would agree a sterile small intestine would be ideal, however this is not a new discovery.

 

[Regina]

Green guru,
Just because there's more concern with sanitation doesn't mean that the environment is more sterile.
If you don't believe, ask your germaphobe friend what he/she is most terrified of, rural or urban areas. In fact, they problably will mention something along the lines of doorknobs of public bathrooms, subway handrail, bills, even indoor trapped air of crowded places. Basically everything that increases the odds of coming in contact with pathogens. There are some terms for you to search if you're interested on the subject: (disease) avoidance behaviour, behavioural immunity, infection-avoidance behaviour, etc.
Regarding your question in specific, I guess that there's some truth in your comment, because if we theoretically compared the same person in a rural and urban areas; the pathogens caught in an urban area would probably be spread by another human that previsouly probably already tried to eradicate it in some way, and that pathogen probably resisted multiple eradication attempts before it gets to you.
In other words, our (urban) environment is far from sterile and pathogens are likely more evolved and sophisticated when it comes to strategies to exploit humanoids. No different than monocultures in agriculture and specific plagues..

http://charityowl.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/crowded-subway-2-charity-owl.jpg

Hah! "Sterile home in the city."
Umm, there's used hypodermic needles on the sidewalk, rats everywhere.
I won't mention what my dog got into on our walk by the lake yesterday. I'll just say, I was wretching when leashing him back up and I haven't wanted his face near me.

 

[Xisca]

1. Gut bacteria are normal for us. Our microbiome is first populated when we leave the womb from the bacteria in and around our mother's vagina.
We are MEANT to have bacteria inside of us and on us. It's part of human evolution.

Charcoal is interesting, because it will bind to all kinds of stuff. But it is at most a short term solution, right? It's the kind of thing you'll have to do for the rest of your life. Same with the carrot or bamboo shoots.

I think this is all Ray recommends (the above as generic solutions) because the science on our microbiome is still in its infancy. But I will bet you a million dollars that the answer isn't to wipe out all bacteria in our colons.

1) Colon no, gut maybe?
There is a mix, and I think we have to diferienciate.
Carrot etc, clean the Little long gut, not the big short one also called colon.
Even in chinese medicine, these have 2 different meridians.

2) Stomach acid is essential for controling what comes with food. I would see this is an important step in curing the digestive track. The correct pH is also needed, acid enough, when leaving the stomach, so that it will stimulate liver and pancreas to send their stuff.

I guess that if all this Works properly from the beginning, each further step of digestion is facilitated.
Proper chewing, then proper stomach acid, then proper secretion of the next juices....
Then a cleaner small intestine seems fine to me, because it should naturally be like this if all the digestive juices can do their job.

Then my guess for the colon....
If everything has been digested and assimilated in a normal way above, colon's bacterias (say gut bacteria only if you are sure you mean the big gut!) should have a minimal job with normal residues.
If digestión is not good, then there things in the colon that should not be there, and bacterias will just do their job with what is there.... If they thrive, well it just means they can.

And keep in mind that appart from the digestive process, you have to take into account the autonomic nervous system. When there is a disbalance between sympathic and parasympathic, you can have diarrea alterning with constipation, and the predominance of diarrea is sympathic activation, and constipation is too much parasympathic activation...

The normal state is that they co-regulate each other.
But in any freeze state, and we all have some, then the apparent para-sympathic state covers a strong sympathic overactivation. And it is totally invisible to yourself. You will just notice the physiological disfunctions, and/or the emotional state.

 

[Xisca]

Are we talking sterile small intestine, or sterile large intestine?...or both? I've read a lot here and I don't buy that we should have a sterile large intestine (i.e. void of any bacteria whatsoever) but would agree a sterile small intestine would be ideal, however this is not a new discovery.

YEEEEEEES
Why english lenguage says "gut"?
Other lenguages I know do not have such a generic name that favors confusion!

 

[Xisca]

I have read that they do not know if serotonin is a neurotransmisor or an hormon. I don't know... It serves so many different things!
If it is a neuro-transmisor, then it belongs to the para-sympathic system and can be involved in the dissociation reaction (which creates well-being of surrender, extasis as a reaction to a painful experience)

It is low when you are in love, and it is low in depression? So low serotonin is NOT a cause of depression! It can be a consequence, but a good one, it could be the sane reaction of the body?
Can it be that the body lowers serotonin to help go out of depression?
Then let's go on with some logic....
High serotonin is linked to well-being....
Well-being sensasion can be linked to what happens when you suffer and your body protects you by removing the feeling of the pain. This is the freeze/dissociation response.
I do not want this kind of well-being on a regular basis, as I know there is a very high sympathic activation UNDER this state. It has to be only temporary, it is a useful protection, but not forever.
Also, I have read that serotonin is delivered when there is a wound, so that the protective response can happen to stop bleeding.
Serotonin also protects from poisonning. It accelerates bowel movements when there is irritation. It can even provoque vomiting to expulse the poison.
That would explain how fibers accelerate bowel movements, because they irritate.
So if you want low serotonin, you do not want to eat too much fibers.
High serotonin means you need protection on the short term.
And this protection can be very diverse, according to your need.
Low serotonin when you are in love remove protection so you can be very close to the other person.
If low serotonin in depression is a body good reaction, which I guess is, then it means that it allows people to accept help from fellows humans. Social engagement is very well known as a big help for creating the necessary para-sympathic state.
If you dissociate in a pleasant way with serotonin, then your superficial well-being willl prevent you from searching human contact for help.
Mostly, when you have irritated digestive track, you are irritable and not good at relating to people either....
I think it all correspond, tell me if you think it makes sense or if I forgot to take something into account.

What I have done here is to cross general information about serotonin with what I know about behaviour and nervous system.

 

[Quality]

I have read that they do not know if serotonin is a neurotransmisor or an hormon. I don't know... It serves so many different things!
If it is a neuro-transmisor, then it belongs to the para-sympathic system and can be involved in the dissociation reaction (which creates well-being of surrender, extasis as a reaction to a painful experience)

It is low when you are in love, and it is low in depression? So low serotonin is NOT a cause of depression! It can be a consequence, but a good one, it could be the sane reaction of the body?
Can it be that the body lowers serotonin to help go out of depression?
Then let's go on with some logic....
High serotonin is linked to well-being....
Well-being sensasion can be linked to what happens when you suffer and your body protects you by removing the feeling of the pain. This is the freeze/dissociation response.
I do not want this kind of well-being on a regular basis, as I know there is a very high sympathic activation UNDER this state. It has to be only temporary, it is a useful protection, but not forever.
Also, I have read that serotonin is delivered when there is a wound, so that the protective response can happen to stop bleeding.
Serotonin also protects from poisonning. It accelerates bowel movements when there is irritation. It can even provoque vomiting to expulse the poison.
That would explain how fibers accelerate bowel movements, because they irritate.
So if you want low serotonin, you do not want to eat too much fibers.
High serotonin means you need protection on the short term.
And this protection can be very diverse, according to your need.
Low serotonin when you are in love remove protection so you can be very close to the other person.
If low serotonin in depression is a body good reaction, which I guess is, then it means that it allows people to accept help from fellows humans. Social engagement is very well known as a big help for creating the necessary para-sympathic state.
If you dissociate in a pleasant way with serotonin, then your superficial well-being willl prevent you from searching human contact for help.
Mostly, when you have irritated digestive track, you are irritable and not good at relating to people either....
I think it all correspond, tell me if you think it makes sense or if I forgot to take something into account.

What I have done here is to cross general information about serotonin with what I know about behaviour and nervous system.

I strongly agree with alot of the things you say, but honestly I think serotonin as a neurotransmitter serves as a fear response modulator/satiety, its a form of a brake.
High serotonin is linked to emotional numbing, where as low serotonin can provoke cravings.
Being too long away from beloved ones or things you feel attached to, can turn cravings into anger and frustration, dropping even lower it will cause depression.
"Rollo May: Depression is the inability to construct a future."

The realization of vulnerability is a part of that, and for those who do not know yet, vulnerability does not equal weakness. In fact it is a sign of strength, allowing yourself to be open to future changes.

serotonin-prolactin-dopamine have a strong connected relationship with eachother.

By the way it might interest you that emotional human tears contain prolactin (wheeping over a lost one or a sense of liberation and euphoria after winning in competitve sports) wheres as regular tears that serve to protect the eyes do not!!!
Crying is also gives out emotional ques to others that help is needed! Imagine while humans did not master language yet and did not communicate through speaking, tears were a way of letting others know something is wrong!!!
Crying requires bravery, acceptance of the situation, and the stress literally leaves the body after crying.

 

[Xisca]

I think serotonin as a neurotransmitter serves as a fear response modulator/satiety, its a form of a brake.

Yes, and the parasympathic I talk about is exactly this: a brake!

And as in a car, there are 2 brakes: the one that alternate with accelerator, and the hand brake that you can even pull at the same time you accelerate. This is an image to tell what is the dissociation procedure in the body: when there is a very high acceleration that is not successful, then this brake blocks all.
In other words, when the fight or flight response does not take you out of danger, the system sends the para-sympathic urgency break help.
That is why I always say that under a freeze/dissociative response, there is a strong activation running.

 

[Quality]

parasympathetic activation is restorative though with acetylcholine being its main activator, serotonin on average is not, serotonin is also known to increase blood pressure.
End of the day its all about balance, that involves all neurotransmitters, both in gut and brain.
Its not as easy to say serotonin is bad, it is both needed and unneeded depending on situation and person.

 

[Xisca]

parasympathetic activation is restorative though

Yes and no.
I always insist that the ParaS has 2 ways of helping us.
The activation you mention is restorative.
The other is the freeze, dissociative, colapse etc reaction!
(in this case it happens at the same time as S activation and blocks it in an activated state)

I am not sure but I am curious about it, if serotonin is involved in this.

 

[Xisca]

Its not as easy to say serotonin is bad, it is both needed and unneeded depending on situation and person.

I think it is an indicator.
So I would not want to lower it in itself, I would want to lower bacterias in the small intestine, and would verify it by the levels of serotonin.
And if I eat something that hurt my guts, of course I want it to go up and make me vomit or have the appropriate diarea.
But if I had high levels all the time, I would not lower it artificially even if it were posible, I would look for the cause and treat it.

If animals run away before a tsunami, I would not attach them when I see their behavior triggered, I would ask myself what's going on, and thank them for the warning.

 

[Quality]

Yes and no.
I always insist that the ParaS has 2 ways of helping us.
The activation you mention is restorative.
The other is the freeze, dissociative, colapse etc reaction!

Well in life threatening situations, certain people are known to have a freeze response, im pretty sure this is due extreme amounts of adrenalin.
Thousands of years ago, freezing infront of a big bear hoping he will not spot you, where as running away you will become a pray.

 

[Xisca]

Adrenalin causes activation, thus for doing, from every day life to sport and runing away etc,
and the freeze response comes on top of it, without the adrenalin going down.
Adrenalin does not cause the freeze in itself, but the freeze comes when the activation is too high to be sustained any more. This can come in an instant or after more time, depending on many factors.

I have learned about the behaviour, the manifestations, not the names of the neurotranmittors. So I can just tell that freeze protects from excesses. Thanks your body when you stop feeling pain long enough to do what ever is needed before noting that you are wounded! This anestesia is also part of the freeze response.

Freeze can also be more subtle, such as not answeering and shuting up...
We usually learn about the nervous system through its extreme manifestations!

 

[Regina]

I have read that they do not know if serotonin is a neurotransmisor or an hormon. I don't know... It serves so many different things!
If it is a neuro-transmisor, then it belongs to the para-sympathic system and can be involved in the dissociation reaction (which creates well-being of surrender, extasis as a reaction to a painful experience)

It is low when you are in love, and it is low in depression? So low serotonin is NOT a cause of depression! It can be a consequence, but a good one, it could be the sane reaction of the body?
Can it be that the body lowers serotonin to help go out of depression?
Then let's go on with some logic....
High serotonin is linked to well-being....
Well-being sensasion can be linked to what happens when you suffer and your body protects you by removing the feeling of the pain. This is the freeze/dissociation response.
I do not want this kind of well-being on a regular basis, as I know there is a very high sympathic activation UNDER this state. It has to be only temporary, it is a useful protection, but not forever.
Also, I have read that serotonin is delivered when there is a wound, so that the protective response can happen to stop bleeding.
Serotonin also protects from poisonning. It accelerates bowel movements when there is irritation. It can even provoque vomiting to expulse the poison.
That would explain how fibers accelerate bowel movements, because they irritate.
So if you want low serotonin, you do not want to eat too much fibers.
High serotonin means you need protection on the short term.
And this protection can be very diverse, according to your need.
Low serotonin when you are in love remove protection so you can be very close to the other person.
If low serotonin in depression is a body good reaction, which I guess is, then it means that it allows people to accept help from fellows humans. Social engagement is very well known as a big help for creating the necessary para-sympathic state.
If you dissociate in a pleasant way with serotonin, then your superficial well-being willl prevent you from searching human contact for help.
Mostly, when you have irritated digestive track, you are irritable and not good at relating to people either....
I think it all correspond, tell me if you think it makes sense or if I forgot to take something into account.

What I have done here is to cross general information about serotonin with what I know about behaviour and nervous system.

Xisca,
I think you are making a lot of sense. It's so interesting to think of serotonin with this view.
I think we want to be disambiguated. Where our words, deeds, actions, thoughts are all in line. Serotonin can be like defense-mechanism (or signal) when we can not get these all in line due to whatever reason: social pressure, employment, obligation, hierarchy. If you have to wear mask(s) in most of your interactions, like a fake little clown, well then it probably makes it easier to just dissociate and suit up in armor.

 

[Xisca]

Thanks Regina, I like the understanding of the chemicals, but it makes it easier for me to link it to my own behaviour and other people! I have no permanent lab with me, but I can observe and feel myself. We need to slow down every time we activate, so that we can activate again, and stress is when we stay up when we have no time. Sometimes we have time, but we have just forgotten the process. Well, the body is rigid, an armor as you say. If you just put your attention on the tense part of your body, the shift is usually coming by itself.

 

[jyb]

Can you please articulate what the risk would be of being germ-free? Babies are like that for 9 months before birth and some continue to be like that for a few months after birth. The human studies where people got germ-free by accident due to long-term antibiotic therapy did not find any health issues. I am not saying we should all jump on the germ-free train but so far the fear seems unjustified. Again, in human studies, there were no health issues noted from people staying germ-free as long as 12 months. If you know of a proposed mechanism why being germ-free would be bad for us please share.

The bacteria in the milk and the milk itself may contribute to keeping the baby's gut germ free. It seems like eating bacteria does not mean more gut bacteria, vice versa eating sterile food could result is more gut bacteria... The bacteria in the baby's milk could have useful functions unrelated to permanently populating the gut, and indeed studies usually hint at interesting effects even when bacteria ingested are dead or effects that are not related to a permanent colonisation.

 

[Texon]

That's the dose given in hospitals when endotoxin overload is suspected. Combined with coconut oil as per my other post it may be even more effective. Can't vouch for products, but if the hospitals use stuff for poisoning cases and it works then it should have some benefit for endotoxin too. I would ask Peat what charcoal specifications he recommends so we can judge the products better.

Something that may be of interest I just discovered...I am currently using this for the bronchial and other sides of a nasty cold that started last Friday. The topic is about azithromycin and it's ability to deactivate and destroy biofilms and their associated bacteria. It is also anti inflammatory, attenuates pain and apparently acts in a very similar way to prednisone class drugs. Never thought I would say this, but I may want to stay on this a while.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...NM-kLNzgsKwCfLwyg&sig2=2hgyQRmV6lVMaB0CjeLWEA

 

[Texon]

The bacteria in the milk and the milk itself may contribute to keeping the baby's gut germ free. It seems like eating bacteria does not mean more gut bacteria, vice versa eating sterile food could result is more gut bacteria... The bacteria in the baby's milk could have useful functions unrelated to permanently populating the gut, and indeed studies usually hint at interesting effects even when bacteria ingested are dead or effects that are not related to a permanent colonisation.

I have heard there are small quantities of hydrogen peroxide in mother's milk but have no references to offer.

 

[LukeL]

@haidut do you think bacteriophages would help with reducing serotonin in the gut?