Serotonin Itself Alters The Microbiome, Central Role Of Only 2 Bacteria Species

Mauritio

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Actually this is a study about serotonin ,bacteria and how a certain anti-depressant influences the two first mentioned.
What I find interesting is the central role of only two bacteria: Turicibacter sanguinis and Clostridia. This articles mentioned that researchers found out that those two cause the body to make more serotonin. And that getting rid of those two reduces serotonin by at least 50% !


" ...in mice, a specific mixture of bacteria, consisting mainly of Turicibacter sanguinis and Clostridia, produces molecules that signal to gut cells to increase production of serotonin. When Hsiao's team raised mice without the bacteria, more than 50% of their gut serotonin was missing."


Then the article goes on to say that serotonin itself causes an increased occurrence of those to species:

"In this new study, the researchers added serotonin to the drinking water of some mice and raised others with a mutation (created by altering a specific serotonin transporter gene) that increased the levels of serotonin in their guts. After studying the microbiota of the mice, the researchers discovered that the bacteria Turicibacter and Clostridia increased significantly when there was more serotonin in the gut.

So what we see here is a viscious cycle :
Turicibacter sanguinis and Clostridia --> more serotonin--> Turicibacter sanguinis and Clostridia.
It is reminding me of the self-reinforcing stress-cycle that serotonin is part of together with cortisol ,prolactin,estrogen and the other stress hormones.


Also they found that Turicibater actually acts as a Serotonin transporter into the cell!:

"When they grew Turicibacter sanguinis in the lab, they found that the bacterium imports serotonin into the cell."



The article: Study shows how serotonin and a popular anti-depressant affect the gut's microbiota
The actual study: Intestinal serotonin and fluoxetine exposure modulate bacterial colonization in the gut
 

Astolfo

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To be honest, I'm more interested in learning how to reverse those mentioned effect of fluoxetine. Probably everyone already knows that a lot of thing alters the microbiome.
 
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Mauritio

Mauritio

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To be honest, I'm more interested in learning how to reverse those mentioned effect of fluoxetine. Probably everyone already knows that a lot of thing alters the microbiome.
Which effects ?
Im mean lowering serotonin by 50% just by killing two bacteria species sounds like a good deal to me .
 
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Would any form of antibiotics be beneficial here in these bacteria cases then?

I don't like hard antibiotics, but prefer lighter stuff that can act similarly and more safely, like lots of raw ginger root/tea/etc.
 
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Mauritio

Mauritio

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Turicibacter sanguinis is gram positive and anaerobic and I think responds to penicillins and to a lesser extent to azithromycin .
I think Chostridia are killed by bacteriophages IIRC and also tetracyclines. I am sure there are money more subtances that kill them and with chlostridia it might be about which strain of it you want to kill .
 

cjm

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Actually this is a study about serotonin ,bacteria and how a certain anti-depressant influences the two first mentioned.
What I find interesting is the central role of only two bacteria: Turicibacter sanguinis and Clostridia. This articles mentioned that researchers found out that those two cause the body to make more serotonin. And that getting rid of those two reduces serotonin by at least 50% !


" ...in mice, a specific mixture of bacteria, consisting mainly of Turicibacter sanguinis and Clostridia, produces molecules that signal to gut cells to increase production of serotonin. When Hsiao's team raised mice without the bacteria, more than 50% of their gut serotonin was missing."


Then the article goes on to say that serotonin itself causes an increased occurrence of those to species:

"In this new study, the researchers added serotonin to the drinking water of some mice and raised others with a mutation (created by altering a specific serotonin transporter gene) that increased the levels of serotonin in their guts. After studying the microbiota of the mice, the researchers discovered that the bacteria Turicibacter and Clostridia increased significantly when there was more serotonin in the gut.

So what we see here is a viscious cycle :
Turicibacter sanguinis and Clostridia --> more serotonin--> Turicibacter sanguinis and Clostridia.
It is reminding me of the self-reinforcing stress-cycle that serotonin is part of together with cortisol ,prolactin,estrogen and the other stress hormones.


Also they found that Turicibater actually acts as a Serotonin transporter into the cell!:

"When they grew Turicibacter sanguinis in the lab, they found that the bacterium imports serotonin into the cell."



The article: Study shows how serotonin and a popular anti-depressant affect the gut's microbiota
The actual study: Intestinal serotonin and fluoxetine exposure modulate bacterial colonization in the gut

I'm reviewing my Organic Acids Test (OAT) from over a year ago and noticing that there are different metabolites from different Clostridia species. There is one particularly harmful metabolite called HPHPA that is produced by only 7 of the 100 or species so it is important to differentiate which Clostridiae can produce it, since HPHPA directly inhibits the conversion of dopamine into norepinephrine via dopamine beta hydroxylase (DBH). There's your suspect and the murder weapon!, lol. Overproduction of homovanillic acid (HVA), a dopamine metabolite that shows up on the OAT, is known to increase autistic symptoms directly. Too much dopamine for too long is a serious problem.

(EDIT: Does serotonin rise to antagonize the excess dopamine? I'm unclear on the dynamics.

"Many physicians treating children with autism have noted that the severity of autistic symptoms is related to the concentration of the Clostridia marker 3-(3-hydroxyphenyl)-3-hydroxypropionic acid (HPHPA) in urine. These are probably the children with autism with severe and even psychotic behavior treated with Risperdal® and other anti-psychotic drugs, which block the activation of dopamine receptors by excess dopamine. I have identified a number of species of Clostridia species that produce HPHPA including C. sporogenes, C.botulinum, C. caloritolerans, C. mangenoti, C. ghoni, C.bifermentans, C. difficile, and C. sordellii. All species of Clostridia are spore formers and thus may persist for long periods of time in the gastrointestinal tracts even after antibiotic treatment with oral vancomycin and metronidazole."


For fun here's my OAT:

(definitely not the GOAT)

High HPHPA, almost out of range

1624549245939.png


High HVA, out of range

1624549281931.png


This is a picture of my nose with 3 nostrils and 4 pre-nostrils

1624549490602.png
 
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cjm

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Would any form of antibiotics be beneficial here in these bacteria cases then?

I don't like hard antibiotics, but prefer lighter stuff that can act similarly and more safely, like lots of raw ginger root/tea/etc.

RP: There is a series that actually starts with vitamin K. It's a quinone structure that has been studied from about 1910 on as an anti-cancer, antiviral, energy-promoting, respiration-improving, anti-inflammatory, anti-fibrotic substance. For example, vitamin K is now used to strengthen bones, prevent osteoporosis and prevent calcification of arteries. That's a basic, vital function that does have tremendous range of functions. The emodin in cascara is a three-ring substance and the tetracycline is a four-ring substance, but they are all quinones that are intensified by adding the extra ring. So from vitamin K all the way up to tetracycline, it's a similar biological effect. It sounds too good to be true, to be able to stimulate respiration, be anti-inflammatory, germicidal, anti-cancer and so on.

Mk4 is a gentle beast. It never leads me astray. Getting my dose right has not been good for my wallet. As you probably know, this stuff is stupid expensive. This is maybe my 10th ounce since discovering it, spread over the many months I dabbled with it. It goes further with oral dosing, I wasted a great deal on topical administration. Not really wasted as it woke up dead, numb muscles, straightened out postural issues in a matter of hours, but I think the liver is smart and knows how to ration its dose in the body. I'm realizing it sort of eliminates my ADHD as a side effect of whatever it's doing in my muscles.
 

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