Serotonin Production In The Gut Is Fully Controlled By Microbiome

[haidut]

That makes sense, and I've wondered how they know at what point the mice are "sterile." Perhaps they never are completely bacteria free. Do you think serotonin release from strenuous endurance training is the cause of increased intestinal permeability from said exercise?

Oh yes, absolutely, serotonin is probably the main culprit even though the histamine and NO elevations during a run also does not help. You can actually prevent the common leaky gut in runners by taking Benadryl, ketotifen or cypro after a run.

 

[amethyst]

Yep, Ray said something along those lines in a few interviews and studies have since confirmed it. Anti-serotonin drugs can probably cure IBS and a few TPH inhbitors are in latest stages of clinical trials for IBS and are being cautiously called "curative".

Which ones in particular? Just curious.

 

[haidut]

Which ones in particular? Just curious.

Which ones what? Ray's articles, interviews or TPH inhibitor drugs?
Cureing Ibs Is It Possible

For the drus you can google "TPH inhibitor IBS" and all the clinical trials will show up.

 

[Regina]

Oh yes, absolutely, serotonin is probably the main culprit even though the histamine and NO elevations during a run also does not help. You can actually prevent the common leaky gut in runners by taking Benadryl, ketotifen or cypro after a run.

I'm finally getting it.

 

[johnwester130]

Watching

A year and a half ago I posted about a study which found that serotonin production in the gut depends on the bacteria living in the colon.
Serotonin Production (gut) Depends On Bacteria
At the time, the study was considered controversial as the role of microbiome in serotonin production was thought to be relatively minor. However, now another study points the finger at the bacteria in the colon as the main regulators of serotonin production through the receptor TLR2.
TLR2 - Wikipedia
The TLR2 receptor is related to the infamous TLR4 (which is the main endotoxin "receptor") but unlike TLR4, the TLR2 gets activated by the mere presence of bacteria in the colon. Thus, any amount of bacteria in the colon will act as agonist at that receptor, and the study below found that TLR2 agonism inhibits the serotonin transporter, which is responsible for the disposal if serotonin. Thus, TLR2 activation results in an effect similar to what the SSRI drugs do in the brain, and these higher gut serotonin levels have been linked to everything from IBD to neurodegenerative disease and even cancer.
Intestinal Serotonin Transporter Inhibition by Toll-Like Receptor 2 Activation. A Feedback Modulation
Serotonin Availability Altered By Gut Microbiota Recognition Receptor
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-12-gut-microorganisms-affect-physiology.html

"...The finding, published in PLOS ONE, comes as scientists across the world are working to understand the complicated interactions between the "invisible world" of the microbiota in our bodies and the impact they have on our health and even our moods. Recently, scientists in California found evidence that the bacteria in the gut play a role in causing Parkinson's Disease. It may also help explain how the microbiota in our guts affect our physiology. Inflammatory bowel disease is thought to be triggered when TLR2 is not functioning properly, but so far, the mechanisms behind this have not been fully understood. This study aimed to further this understanding, and was supported the Foundation for the Study of Inflammatory Bowel Diseases in Aragón (ARAINF), in Spain. Dr Eva Latorre, a postdoctoral researcher at the University of Exeter Medical School, said the new finding helped to further understanding in a fast-growing research area. She said: "This paper has concluded that the protein TLR2 alters the availability of serotonin, which is important in a range of conditions from depression to inflammatory bowel disease. It is early days in this research though. We need to understand much more about the relationship between the microbiota in our guts and how they interact, before we can hope to harness effective new treatments." The research team examined human cells in a model of the intestine in the laboratory, looking at how they express proteins and RNA - activities which regulate how they behave. They found that TLR2 controls serotonin transporter - obtaining the same result in studies on mice. Principal investigator of this study, Professor José E Mesonero, at the University of Zaragoza, said: "This paper opens our minds about the complex universe of this forgotten organ: the microbiome. We have concluded that TLR2 not only can detect microbiota, but also modulate serotonin transport, one of the crucial mechanism in neurological and inflammatory diseases. Much has to be yet studied, but this work can improve our understanding about the connection between gut and brain thought microbiota.""

would camphosal work for this receptor ?

 

[haidut]

would camphosal work for this receptor ?

Not to my knowledge even though if it reduces bacterial count it should have indirect beneficial effects on serotonin. Ethyl pyruvate (one of the ingredients in Pyrucet) does have inhibitory effects on TLRs. Also, pregnenolone specifically affects TLR2.
Pregnenolone Is A Potent (functional) Endotoxin (TLR4) Antagonist
"...Although the anti-inflammatory property of pregnenolone was recognized several decades ago, its mechanism of action remains unknown. Here we report that pregnenolone promotes ubiquitination and degradation of the TLR2/4 adaptor protein TIRAP and TLR2 in macrophages and microglial cells."

 

[johnwester130]

so serotonin blocking drugs are not the best route to go down ?

 

[yerrag]

I don't know why the focus is alway on the gut, with respect to serotonin as well as with bacteria and with endotoxins. Perhaps it's because the gut has been the focus with Ray.

This really leaves this forum with a deficient understanding of the internal on-goings because of the excessive focus on the gut. The silver lining in this COVID-19 crisis is that we are getting to know more about the internal system. Yet we've been too focused on the viral aspect, and the bacterial aspect we're only skimming. While Ray has touched on retroviruses in the past, it's only know that we have begun discussing exosomes. Yet on bacteria - anaerobes vs. aerobes, facultative vs obligate anaerobes, autotrophs vs. heterotrophs - there's very little we know. We also don't know much about biofilm bacteria vs. planktonic bacteria.

We tend to think that once our gut is fine, we are all set to live our merry lives.

But is serotonin pretty much produced by bacteria in the gut? What if there is bacteria lining our blood vessels along with the plaque? Aren't they also producing serotonin?

I recently took a varied protocol of biofilm disruptors and antibiotics and systemic enzymes. Also used some phytophenols in the form of TCM herbs and essential oils. I was targetting the biofilm microbiome in my blood vessels. I wasn't able to fully eliminate the bacterial colonization in my blood vessels, but I noticed that my gut had become dfferent. I didn't think I had serious gut issues, as I digest pretty well and I have regular bowel movement and it's rare that I have a bum stomach. And I don't have flatulence issues. And for a long time now, I had ceased to have feces that would smell, after Ray Peat convinced me not to take in a lot of soluble fibers for the sake of good bowel movement.

I was surprised to see that after the protocol I had, I began to have smaller poop. They are still coming out as one long piece, but they're better formed, more packed, and they seem to be high-solid poop, meaning more concentrated because they are less diluted by water content. And a big plus, in these days of toilet paper shortages, I was having a lot of ghost wipes. Often, I just end up using one piece of toilet paper to wipe off nothing! My sleep quality has improved, and I think a lot of it has to do with the serotonin reduction in my gut, from having less bacteria.

But before I got to this point, I was having to go through a rough patch as I took my protocol. I was having diarrhea, and I was wondering at first why the diarrhea was happening, when I was taking antibiotics. For sure, it's one of the contraindications of using antibiotics, and I at first believed that. But as I thought about it, I began to think that it's also because I was breaking down a lot of biofilm, and a lot of planktonic bacteria was being released into the gut. A lot would be dead bacteria as well, as plenty of the biofilm bacteria would be anaerobic, and they would die when exposed to oxygen.

It must be the colon being very selective in what kind of liquid it wants to reabsorb into the body, and having a lot of bacteria certainly would keep the colon from absorbing the liqud the bacteria is bathed in. This would explain the episodes of diarrhea. Knowing this, I kept on with my protocol, but with some assistance from taking in activated charcoal. The diarrhea would finally cease, and I slowly began to see the smaller stools come out that don't require much toilet paper to clean up after. I also began to sleep better.

Without intending to, I had practically sanitized my gut and I now feel better because of it.

 

[thomas00]

Running is notorious for giving people "the shits" even mid-run

word

 

[Roguestrand70]

Which ones what? Ray's articles, interviews or TPH inhibitor drugs?
Cureing Ibs Is It Possible

For the drus you can google "TPH inhibitor IBS" and all the clinical trials will show up.

I agree with the ibs cure... any link to hiatal hernia and the constant reflux irritating the esophageal lining.. that’s what I am trying to manage without surgery

 

[Perry Staltic]

"This paper has concluded that the protein TLR2 alters the availability of serotonin, which is important in a range of conditions from depression to inflammatory bowel disease"

Abnormal serotonin is also a factor in covid, apparently. This MD, who must be treating a lot of covid patients, has found elevated serotonin levels to be a biomarker for bad prognosis. Since I am a new member I can't hot link to his discussion on this matter, so simply add the prefix twitter dot com to

One of the more interesting things mentioned in his comments is that fentanyl, which is frequently used to sedate intubated patients, becomes serotonergic in combination with certain drugs (like SSRIs), compounding the elevated serotonin levels caused by the biotrauma (cytokine release) induced by mechanical ventilation.

 

[Ben.]

I don't know why the focus is alway on the gut, with respect to serotonin as well as with bacteria and with endotoxins. Perhaps it's because the gut has been the focus with Ray.

This really leaves this forum with a deficient understanding of the internal on-goings because of the excessive focus on the gut. The silver lining in this COVID-19 crisis is that we are getting to know more about the internal system. Yet we've been too focused on the viral aspect, and the bacterial aspect we're only skimming. While Ray has touched on retroviruses in the past, it's only know that we have begun discussing exosomes. Yet on bacteria - anaerobes vs. aerobes, facultative vs obligate anaerobes, autotrophs vs. heterotrophs - there's very little we know. We also don't know much about biofilm bacteria vs. planktonic bacteria.

We tend to think that once our gut is fine, we are all set to live our merry lives.

But is serotonin pretty much produced by bacteria in the gut? What if there is bacteria lining our blood vessels along with the plaque? Aren't they also producing serotonin?

I recently took a varied protocol of biofilm disruptors and antibiotics and systemic enzymes. Also used some phytophenols in the form of TCM herbs and essential oils. I was targetting the biofilm microbiome in my blood vessels. I wasn't able to fully eliminate the bacterial colonization in my blood vessels, but I noticed that my gut had become dfferent. I didn't think I had serious gut issues, as I digest pretty well and I have regular bowel movement and it's rare that I have a bum stomach. And I don't have flatulence issues. And for a long time now, I had ceased to have feces that would smell, after Ray Peat convinced me not to take in a lot of soluble fibers for the sake of good bowel movement.

I was surprised to see that after the protocol I had, I began to have smaller poop. They are still coming out as one long piece, but they're better formed, more packed, and they seem to be high-solid poop, meaning more concentrated because they are less diluted by water content. And a big plus, in these days of toilet paper shortages, I was having a lot of ghost wipes. Often, I just end up using one piece of toilet paper to wipe off nothing! My sleep quality has improved, and I think a lot of it has to do with the serotonin reduction in my gut, from having less bacteria.

But before I got to this point, I was having to go through a rough patch as I took my protocol. I was having diarrhea, and I was wondering at first why the diarrhea was happening, when I was taking antibiotics. For sure, it's one of the contraindications of using antibiotics, and I at first believed that. But as I thought about it, I began to think that it's also because I was breaking down a lot of biofilm, and a lot of planktonic bacteria was being released into the gut. A lot would be dead bacteria as well, as plenty of the biofilm bacteria would be anaerobic, and they would die when exposed to oxygen.

It must be the colon being very selective in what kind of liquid it wants to reabsorb into the body, and having a lot of bacteria certainly would keep the colon from absorbing the liqud the bacteria is bathed in. This would explain the episodes of diarrhea. Knowing this, I kept on with my protocol, but with some assistance from taking in activated charcoal. The diarrhea would finally cease, and I slowly began to see the smaller stools come out that don't require much toilet paper to clean up after. I also began to sleep better.

Without intending to, I had practically sanitized my gut and I now feel better because of it.

How did you know/figure out that you had biofilms in your bloodvessels? Interesting protocoll/experience.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Have you

I agree with the ibs cure... any link to hiatal hernia and the constant reflux irritating the esophageal lining.. that’s what I am trying to manage without surgery

Research bacillus coagulens. Seems like I read somewhere that it is efficacious against acid reflux.

 

[Risingfire]

I don't know why the focus is alway on the gut, with respect to serotonin as well as with bacteria and with endotoxins. Perhaps it's because the gut has been the focus with Ray.

This really leaves this forum with a deficient understanding of the internal on-goings because of the excessive focus on the gut. The silver lining in this COVID-19 crisis is that we are getting to know more about the internal system. Yet we've been too focused on the viral aspect, and the bacterial aspect we're only skimming. While Ray has touched on retroviruses in the past, it's only know that we have begun discussing exosomes. Yet on bacteria - anaerobes vs. aerobes, facultative vs obligate anaerobes, autotrophs vs. heterotrophs - there's very little we know. We also don't know much about biofilm bacteria vs. planktonic bacteria.

We tend to think that once our gut is fine, we are all set to live our merry lives.

But is serotonin pretty much produced by bacteria in the gut? What if there is bacteria lining our blood vessels along with the plaque? Aren't they also producing serotonin?

I recently took a varied protocol of biofilm disruptors and antibiotics and systemic enzymes. Also used some phytophenols in the form of TCM herbs and essential oils. I was targetting the biofilm microbiome in my blood vessels. I wasn't able to fully eliminate the bacterial colonization in my blood vessels, but I noticed that my gut had become dfferent. I didn't think I had serious gut issues, as I digest pretty well and I have regular bowel movement and it's rare that I have a bum stomach. And I don't have flatulence issues. And for a long time now, I had ceased to have feces that would smell, after Ray Peat convinced me not to take in a lot of soluble fibers for the sake of good bowel movement.

I was surprised to see that after the protocol I had, I began to have smaller poop. They are still coming out as one long piece, but they're better formed, more packed, and they seem to be high-solid poop, meaning more concentrated because they are less diluted by water content. And a big plus, in these days of toilet paper shortages, I was having a lot of ghost wipes. Often, I just end up using one piece of toilet paper to wipe off nothing! My sleep quality has improved, and I think a lot of it has to do with the serotonin reduction in my gut, from having less bacteria.

But before I got to this point, I was having to go through a rough patch as I took my protocol. I was having diarrhea, and I was wondering at first why the diarrhea was happening, when I was taking antibiotics. For sure, it's one of the contraindications of using antibiotics, and I at first believed that. But as I thought about it, I began to think that it's also because I was breaking down a lot of biofilm, and a lot of planktonic bacteria was being released into the gut. A lot would be dead bacteria as well, as plenty of the biofilm bacteria would be anaerobic, and they would die when exposed to oxygen.

It must be the colon being very selective in what kind of liquid it wants to reabsorb into the body, and having a lot of bacteria certainly would keep the colon from absorbing the liqud the bacteria is bathed in. This would explain the episodes of diarrhea. Knowing this, I kept on with my protocol, but with some assistance from taking in activated charcoal. The diarrhea would finally cease, and I slowly began to see the smaller stools come out that don't require much toilet paper to clean up after. I also began to sleep better.

Without intending to, I had practically sanitized my gut and I now feel better because of it.

Can you detail your protocol?

 

[yerrag]

How did you know/figure out that you had biofilms in your bloodvessels? Interesting protocoll/experience.

When I took proteolytic enzymes, after a while I noticed I was urinating a lot, even to the point of having to urinate every 45 minutes, with a full load in my bladder. My cbc test revealed a large jump in wbc, and the large jump was accounted for by a huge increase in neutrophils. A large increase in neutrophils is usually caused by bacterial infection. With the enzymes lysing plaque in the blood vessels, a lot of gunk is released into the blood. Among these would be dormant bacteria, which would turn into planktonic bacteria.

My guess is that the increased urine is due to the result of water produced from ROS that's being produced to kill bacteria, as the a product of ROS eventually turns into water at the end of the respiratory burst used in phagocytosis. If there are spillover ROS that would harm surrounding tissues, antioxidants would neutralize the ROS, and water would be a by-product as well.

As for the foam, I think it's oxidized albumin, which is being used as an antioxidant. I mentioned bacteria as a cause for the increased water, but it could also be immune complexes being released from the plaque, which would cause inflammation from immune reaction to the immune complexes that accumulate in the kidneys - an auto-immune reaction.

I'm making educated guesses through all this, so I could still be wrong partly or wholely.

 

[yerrag]

Can you detail your protocol?

I was taking a lot of biofilm busters, throwing the kitchen of biofilm busters at it while I was taking antibiotics over a 12-week period consisting of doxy, augmentin, and zithro in succession.

The biofilm busters were ceylon cinnamon, chinese herbs rhubarb, licorice, and huang lian (contains berberine), chitosan, erythritol, d-ribose, lactoferrin.

If I were just targeting the gut, I'd probably skip the antibiotics and try an alternative: grated fresh coconut flesh. This acts like a capsule of vco that only gets released in the large intestine. Unlike vco, which gets absorbed in the small intestine, the vco in the grated coconut flesh gets all the way to the large intestines. It is an antibiotic and will kill gut bacteria.

I've had a friend take this, and he gets good results. He lost weight, reduced his waistline, his poops became more solid and firm, he's been having ghost wipes. The only downside is that he is more constipated. But that's what happens when the gut bacteria is lessened and the serotonin it produces is lessened. So I told him to take therapeutic magnesium for a year at 600-800mg/day. If he gets to a point where there's too much magnesium, he will just have diarrhea and that signals his magnesium stores are full, and then he should stop.

Having enough magnesium, he will have the available energy for peristalsis, which are like gut muscles contracting and expanding in an automatic rhythmic motion that drives the transit and movement of feces for excretion.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Abnormal serotonin is also a factor in covid, apparently. This MD, who must be treating a lot of covid patients, has found elevated serotonin levels to be a biomarker for bad prognosis. Since I am a new member I can't hot link to his discussion on this matter, so simply add the prefix twitter dot com to

One of the more interesting things mentioned in his comments is that fentanyl, which is frequently used to sedate intubated patients, becomes serotonergic in combination with certain drugs (like SSRIs), compounding the elevated serotonin levels caused by the biotrauma (cytokine release) induced by mechanical ventilation.

As Haidut posted before, one of the main ways the body deactivates serotonin is through the lungs. One of the ways you can impair this process is by wearing a mask.

The problem with attributing anything to COVID (if that virus even exists) is all the simultaneous experiments that are being run this year, from forced masking, lockdowns, forced poverty, and the year long propaganda fear campaign about this supposed "novel" virus.

With a little bit of digging, anything that can be ascribed as "abnormal" to this virus could just as easily be a side effect of one of the other uncontrolled medical experiments going on.

 

[revenant]

The biofilm busters were ceylon cinnamon, chinese herbs rhubarb, licorice, and huang lian (contains berberine), chitosan, erythritol, d-ribose, lactoferrin.

If I were just targeting the gut, I'd probably skip the antibiotics and try an alternative: grated fresh coconut flesh. This acts like a capsule of vco that only gets released in the large intestine. Unlike vco, which gets absorbed in the small intestine, the vco in the grated coconut flesh gets all the way to the large intestines. It is an antibiotic and will kill gut bacteria.

Does it have to be fresh coconut? Grated and dried coconut would be easily available...

 

[yerrag]

Does it have to be fresh coconut? Grated and dried coconut would be easily available...

It may still work, since the only part that's been taken out would be the water. It's probably hard to export the mature coconut from the tropics to the US, given that the mature coconuts I buy tend to spoil after 2 weeks or even less. You can try it and see if it works, although you don't have a point of comparison to a grated fresh coconut flesh.

However, if grated coconut flesh were packaged and frozen and exported to the US, and there is a market for it, I don't see how it wouldn't be possible to buy it from a health food store.

p.s. Ray warned me about allergy from the protein im coconut meat, just as he often warns about allergy to plant proteins. But it hasn't affected me, as coconut ism't foreign to the people in the tropics, who are likely used to eating it. Grated coconut flesh and coconut milk are part of the local diet. Often the grated coconut flesh is added to desserts.

So if you're going to try it, start with small quantities and build up your tolerance as your increase your intake.

 

[Risingfire]

I was taking a lot of biofilm busters, throwing the kitchen of biofilm busters at it while I was taking antibiotics over a 12-week period consisting of doxy, augmentin, and zithro in succession.

The biofilm busters were ceylon cinnamon, chinese herbs rhubarb, licorice, and huang lian (contains berberine), chitosan, erythritol, d-ribose, lactoferrin.

If I were just targeting the gut, I'd probably skip the antibiotics and try an alternative: grated fresh coconut flesh. This acts like a capsule of vco that only gets released in the large intestine. Unlike vco, which gets absorbed in the small intestine, the vco in the grated coconut flesh gets all the way to the large intestines. It is an antibiotic and will kill gut bacteria.

I've had a friend take this, and he gets good results. He lost weight, reduced his waistline, his poops became more solid and firm, he's been having ghost wipes. The only downside is that he is more constipated. But that's what happens when the gut bacteria is lessened and the serotonin it produces is lessened. So I told him to take therapeutic magnesium for a year at 600-800mg/day. If he gets to a point where there's too much magnesium, he will just have diarrhea and that signals his magnesium stores are full, and then he should stop.

Having enough magnesium, he will have the available energy for peristalsis, which are like gut muscles contracting and expanding in an automatic rhythmic motion that drives the transit and movement of feces for excretion.

Thank you! What does the lactoferrin do? I've heard mixed reviews on it