Eggs Under Attack Again

pauljacob

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An short article in the Atlantic says that intestinal bacteria convert Choline in eggs into a compound that correlates strongly with heart disease, stroke, and death. The study implicates Carnitine and Choline. It seems that business-backed studies are hitting on eggs again as a killer.

Here's the article:

A Potential Way to Eat Eggs Without Dying

We learned this week that intestinal bacteria convert nutrients from egg yolks into a compound that correlates strongly with heart disease, stroke, and death.

Bacteria are all over us, inside and out. Jiri Hulcr recently found 1,458 species of bacteria "new to science" in a small sample of human belly buttons. What we know about our little passengers and how they affect our bodies is dwarfed by what we do not. That can be disconcerting to think about, especially when some of them are undermining us.

In particular, some bacteria in our own intestines seem to have turned against us. Research this week in the New England Journal of Medicine led by Dr. Stanley Hazen at the Cleveland Clinic tells how they digest a compound called choline and turn it into trimethylamine N-oxide (TMAO).

TMAO is the new big thing in heart disease: higher levels of TMAO predict more heart attacks, strokes, and death:

Where does TMAO come from, and how do we stop it?

One place is carnitine, which is in red meat. Another is choline, which is a product of lecithin in egg yolks. Carnitine and choline are broken down by bacteria in our guts, which, we now know, turn them into TMAO.

In this study people ate two eggs, which increased the level of TMAO in their blood. If they took an antibiotic before eating the eggs, though -- which killed some of this subversive intestinal bacteria -- their TMAO level did not go up.

Researchers still don't know which bacteria were making the TMAO and are not yet recommending antibiotics or probiotics to this end. But since eggs make us happy, and happiness is everything, it's exciting to think there is a way to make our bodies digest them in a way that's less bad for us. One thing we can look at right away is the prudence of taking choline supplements. Some is necessary, but too much seems bad.

Even if altering our gut flora does work out for the best, the question will remain: Why would bacteria that lives inside us seem to want us to die?



Here's The New England Journal of Medicine study:

 

OccamzRazer

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First our genes were against us, now it's our gut bacteria??

The fear-based pseudoscience is unbelievable.

There's something to the idea of antibiotics, tho...
 
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pauljacob

pauljacob

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I'm vegetarian, and rely on eggs for protein and other nutrients. I hope people in the know will respond to this thread to clarify or debunk this study.
 

amd

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Think it the other way around, if you remove eggs/liver from your diet, where are you going to get the same quantity and quality of nutrients from?

By the same token:

Journal of Nutrition & Food Sciences

Is L-Carnitine the Link between Red Meat and Heart Disease?

It is significant that the differences between blood TMAO
concentration in omnivores and vegetarians were small. Seventy-five
percent of omnivores had TMAO excretion levels that were in the
same range as 90% of the vegetarians, meaning that 25 percent of the
omnivores and 10 percent of the vegetarians exhibited elevated TMAO
levels [1]. This would suggest that meat per se does not cause the blood
elevation of TMAO, but rather specific gut bacteria do. Subjects with
high gastrointestinal counts of Prevotella and low Bacteroides had three
times higher blood TMAO levels compared to those with low Prevotella
and high Bacteroides microflora [1]. Such findings indicate that there
may be a role for supplemental probiotics to correct these imbalances.
In addition, it is likely that the high producers of TMAO also consumed
a diet low in fermentable fibers, which are known to favorably modulate
gut bacteria. However, dietary histories were not obtained to confirm
this hypothesis [1].

Conclusions
1. Neither dietary L-carnitine found in red meat nor choline and
phosphatidylcholine found in liver, eggs and broccoli under
normal circumstances
contribute to a significant elevation of
blood TMAO.
2. Fish appears to be the primary source of TMAO in the diet.
3. Gut bacteria can contribute to the formation of TMAO; this
seems to reflect not only routine meat consumption, but also
possibly antibiotic use and a low dietary fiber intake
 
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pauljacob

pauljacob

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Think it the other way around, if you remove eggs/liver from your diet, where are you going to get the same quantity and quality of nutrients from?

By the same token:

Journal of Nutrition & Food Sciences

Is L-Carnitine the Link between Red Meat and Heart Disease?

It is significant that the differences between blood TMAO
concentration in omnivores and vegetarians were small. Seventy-five
percent of omnivores had TMAO excretion levels that were in the
same range as 90% of the vegetarians, meaning that 25 percent of the
omnivores and 10 percent of the vegetarians exhibited elevated TMAO
levels [1]. This would suggest that meat per se does not cause the blood
elevation of TMAO, but rather specific gut bacteria do. Subjects with
high gastrointestinal counts of Prevotella and low Bacteroides had three
times higher blood TMAO levels compared to those with low Prevotella
and high Bacteroides microflora [1]. Such findings indicate that there
may be a role for supplemental probiotics to correct these imbalances.
In addition, it is likely that the high producers of TMAO also consumed
a diet low in fermentable fibers, which are known to favorably modulate
gut bacteria. However, dietary histories were not obtained to confirm
this hypothesis [1].

Conclusions
1. Neither dietary L-carnitine found in red meat nor choline and
phosphatidylcholine found in liver, eggs and broccoli under
normal circumstances
contribute to a significant elevation of
blood TMAO.
2. Fish appears to be the primary source of TMAO in the diet.
3. Gut bacteria can contribute to the formation of TMAO; this
seems to reflect not only routine meat consumption, but also
possibly antibiotic use and a low dietary fiber intake
Thank you fico, I needed that. Much appreciated. :thumbsup:
 

Mito

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  • TMAO: Should we be worried about the TMAO content in choline and our foods? [39:15];
 
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pauljacob

pauljacob

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  • TMAO: Should we be worried about the TMAO content in choline and our foods? [39:15];
Thank you Mito, but I can't download that without paying for it.
 

Hgreen56

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l-cartintine = toxic to the heart and probably contributory to the link between energy drinks and heart attacks.
also its anti-thyroid, makes people fat, increase migraine, suppress metabolism, anti-peat.


But i read somewhere that ray wat 1-3 whole eggs a day (or something like that)
 
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pauljacob

pauljacob

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l-cartintine = toxic to the heart and probably contributory to the link between energy drinks and heart attacks.
also its anti-thyroid, makes people fat, increase migraine, suppress metabolism, anti-peat.


But i read somewhere that ray wat 1-3 whole eggs a day (or something like that)
Thank you Hgreen56, excellent research. I especially liked Scott Schlegel's articles.
Here's what Linus Pauling Institute says about l-Carnitine:
Humans can synthesize L-carnitine from the amino acids lysine and methionine in a multi-step process occurring across several cell compartments (cytosol, lysosomes, and mitochondria) (reviewed in 6). Across different organs, protein-bound lysine is methylated to form ε-N-trimethyllysine in a reaction catalyzed by specific lysine methyltransferases that use S-adenosyl-methionine (derived from methionine) as a methyl donor. ε-N-Trimethyllysine is released for carnitine synthesis by protein hydrolysis. Four enzymes are involved in endogenous L-carnitine biosynthesis (Figure 2). They are all ubiquitous except γ-butyrobetaine hydroxylase is absent from cardiac and skeletal muscle. This enzyme is, however, highly expressed in human liver, testes, and kidney (7).

L-carnitine is primarily synthesized in the liver and transported via the bloodstream to cardiac and skeletal muscle, which rely on L-carnitine for fatty acid oxidation yet cannot synthesize it (8). The rate of L-carnitine biosynthesis in humans was studied in strict vegetarians (i.e., in people who consume very little dietary carnitine) and estimated to be 1.2 µmol/kg of body weight/day (9). The rate of L-carnitine synthesis depends on the extent to which peptide-linked lysines are methylated and the rate of protein turnover. There is some indirect evidence to suggest that excess lysine in the diet may increase endogenous L-carnitine synthesis; however, changes in dietary carnitine intake level or in renal reabsorption do not appear to affect the rate of endogenous L-carnitine synthesis (6).

 

Missenger

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Take what you want from the ***t flingling. The ultimate factor is that overcooked protein can contribute to clotting in the blood just like overcooked eggs can as well.
 
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pauljacob

pauljacob

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Take what you want from the ***t flingling. The ultimate factor is that overcooked protein can contribute to clotting in the blood just like overcooked eggs can as well.
What do you consider an overcooked egg? I like my eggs firm both sides; is that overcooked? Is an Omelette, or a hard-boiled egg overcooked?
 

Missenger

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I'd consider hard boiled and omelettes overcooked but people on here were talking about eating eggs close to raw and just cooking the whites until they're done so they're less allergenic, Ray talked about using coconut oil to just burn off the excess pufas while injesting it, without that the rawer the yolk is the better as long as you trust the source.
 
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pauljacob

pauljacob

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I'd consider hard boiled and omelettes overcooked but people on here were talking about eating eggs close to raw and just cooking the whites until they're done so they're less allergenic, Ray talked about using coconut oil to just burn off the excess pufas while injesting it, without that the rawer the yolk is the better as long as you trust the source.
Thank you, Missenger, good to know.
 

SOMO

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Cook your eggs as gently as possible, keep the yolk raw.

Oxidized cholesterol is real and the main reason I don't drink powdered milk except when there's an apocalypse or zombie outbreak.

There's protein powders out there that are basically dried egg yolk and one of the chief complaints of these protein powders is the smell and acrid taste which to me indicates the high probability the fats/cholesterol are oxidized.
 
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Thank you Mito, but I can't download that without paying for it.
Translated, TMAO is the so-manyeth vegan nothing burger. They attempted to conclude that vegan diet were better than SAD American diets because TMAO levels were lower in vegan diets, but they forgot to mention that Pescatarian diets contributed to the highest TMAO levels of all groups, while at the same time all their studies conclude that the best health outcomes occur in the Pescatrian groups.
 
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pauljacob

pauljacob

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Translated, TMAO is the so-manyeth vegan nothing burger. They attempted to conclude that vegan diet were better than SAD American diets because TMAO levels were lower in vegan diets, but they forgot to mention that Pescatarian diets contributed to the highest TMAO levels of all groups, while at the same time all their studies conclude that the best health outcomes occur in the Pescatrian groups.
Thank you. :thumbsup:
 
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Drink your eggs raw. Egg white lysozyme has strong LPS binding and antimicrobial activity.
 

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