Fungi / Bacteria, Not Autoimmunity, Cause IBD (Chron's, UC) And IBS

Christoph

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Mar 8, 2017
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46
Location
Reno, NV
All Ive read are some somewhat related snippets:

- that candida and other yeasts are killed or inhibited by butyrate
- that butyrate is usually produced by balanced gut bacteria, but low levels are seen in IBD, Parkinsons, etc
- supplementing butyrate can encourage growth of these normal species
- that sodium butyrate is used as a part of treatment for these illnesses, along with "mold detox"

There was a form of slow release sodium butyrate that apparently made sure the butyrate made it to the colon, as opposed to other forms. I havent tried it yet myself.

Here's one link that elucidates the role of SCFA's and gut health., Antibiotic-induced decreases in the levels of microbial-derived short-chain fatty acids promote gastrointestinal colonization of Candida albicans . Here's the abstract:

Candida albicans is the fourth most common cause of systemic nosocomial infections, posing a significant risk in immunocompromised individuals. As the majority of systemic C. albicans infections stem from endogenous gastrointestinal (GI) colonization, understanding the mechanisms associated with GI colonization is essential in the development of novel methods to prevent C. albicans-related mortality. In this study, we investigated the role of microbial-derived short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs) including acetate, butyrate, and propionate on growth, morphogenesis, and GI colonization of C. albicans. Our results indicate that cefoperazone-treated mice susceptible to C. albicans infection had significantly decreased levels of SCFAs in the cecal contents that correlate with a higher fungal load in the feces. Further, using in vivo concentration of SCFAs, we demonstrated that SCFAs inhibit the growth, germ tube, hyphae and biofilm development of C. albicans in vitro. Collectively, results from this study demonstrate that antibiotic-induced decreases in the levels of SCFAs in the cecum enhances the growth and GI colonization of C. albicans.

One potential push away from health may be antibiotic use. By killing short-chain fatty acid production vis-a-vis the killing of SCFA-producing bacteria, the gut becomes overburdened with pathogenic microbes:

Antibiotic treatment in mice and humans alters the composition of gut microbiota, ultimately leading to changes in the levels of microbial-derived gut metabolites, mainly bile acids and short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs)2428. Alterations in the normal levels of microbial-derived bile acids and SCFAs have been implicated in the growth, colonization, and pathogenesis of enteric pathogens including C. difficile 24,25,28. Moreover, we have recently demonstrated that microbial-derived bile acids play an important role in the GI colonization of C. albicans 29 30

SCFA's not only keep pathogenic microbes under control, they also serve as food for the outer/inner intestinal wall, thus protecting against leaky gut. I will soon experiment with a sodium butyrate product I've seen on Amazon and then post my thoughts on this as results come in.
 

Goobz

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Mar 2, 2019
Messages
302
Location
Australia
Here's one link that elucidates the role of SCFA's and gut health., Antibiotic-induced decreases in the levels of microbial-derived short-chain fatty acids promote gastrointestinal colonization of Candida albicans . Here's the abstract:

Candida albicans is the fourth most common cause of systemic nosocomial infections, posing a significant risk in immunocompromised individuals. As the majority of systemic C. albicans infections stem from endogenous gastrointestinal (GI) colonization, understanding the mechanisms associated with GI colonization is essential in the development of novel methods to prevent C. albicans-related mortality. In this study, we investigated the role of microbial-derived short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs) including acetate, butyrate, and propionate on growth, morphogenesis, and GI colonization of C. albicans. Our results indicate that cefoperazone-treated mice susceptible to C. albicans infection had significantly decreased levels of SCFAs in the cecal contents that correlate with a higher fungal load in the feces. Further, using in vivo concentration of SCFAs, we demonstrated that SCFAs inhibit the growth, germ tube, hyphae and biofilm development of C. albicans in vitro. Collectively, results from this study demonstrate that antibiotic-induced decreases in the levels of SCFAs in the cecum enhances the growth and GI colonization of C. albicans.

One potential push away from health may be antibiotic use. By killing short-chain fatty acid production vis-a-vis the killing of SCFA-producing bacteria, the gut becomes overburdened with pathogenic microbes:

Antibiotic treatment in mice and humans alters the composition of gut microbiota, ultimately leading to changes in the levels of microbial-derived gut metabolites, mainly bile acids and short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs)2428. Alterations in the normal levels of microbial-derived bile acids and SCFAs have been implicated in the growth, colonization, and pathogenesis of enteric pathogens including C. difficile 24,25,28. Moreover, we have recently demonstrated that microbial-derived bile acids play an important role in the GI colonization of C. albicans 29 30

SCFA's not only keep pathogenic microbes under control, they also serve as food for the outer/inner intestinal wall, thus protecting against leaky gut. I will soon experiment with a sodium butyrate product I've seen on Amazon and then post my thoughts on this as results come in.

I will follow your thoughts with interest!

I will probably be ordering the slow release butyrate product I mentioned earlier, at some stage, and will try to remember to post any changes I notice here.
 

Lewistx

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Joined
Aug 15, 2019
Messages
56
I'm at the Gi clinic today to figure out my gut problems doing a hpylori test hog and doc who looks 23 prescribed some protonixs to ensure I don't heal
 

Christoph

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Joined
Mar 8, 2017
Messages
46
Location
Reno, NV
To my chagrin, I've decided to give up on high-dose riboflavin because I started going downhill in the third week. The research I originally found on riboflavin was mixed, but I decided to give it a go anyway. Fighting fungi is really different that bacteria. A good antibiotic usually provides relief within a day. Conversely, effectively fungal treatments commonly start out with a period of worsening (die off) symptoms. Moreover, supplements that help fungi grow will sometimes provide a period of relief.

With that experiment behind me, I'm moving on to oregano oil, which is packed with terpenoids. The primary terpenoid in a quality product is carvacrol, which is a terpene with a phenol group. A good quality oregano oil product is made from the plant Origanum Vulgares and should be about 80% carvacrol. Additionally, one should find limonene, thymol, eugenol and plenty of other organic chemicals in a good oregano oil. It has the very distinct smell and taste of oregano but is 1000% stronger and can be quite spicy. I'm taking 5 drops sublingually in the morning and evening. After my first dose, I couldn't fall asleep for hours. It is very potent.

At this point, my GI/anti-fungal protocol includes: (1) Lugol's iodine, (2) borax, (3) turpentine, (4) limonene, (5) oregano oil and (6) red/IR light. I'm also trying my own anti-fungal oil for topical treatment, which is 6 parts refined organic refined coconut oil to 1 part oregano oil. During my next turpentine cleansing, I will add 10 drops of oregano oil to the 1 tsp of turpentine that I ingest and see what happens. I'm worried it may be too extreme.

I'm going to delay the butyrate experiment for a couple of weeks pending results with oregano oil.
 

Hildy

Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2019
Messages
110
Here's one link that elucidates the role of SCFA's and gut health., Antibiotic-induced decreases in the levels of microbial-derived short-chain fatty acids promote gastrointestinal colonization of Candida albicans . Here's the abstract:

Candida albicans is the fourth most common cause of systemic nosocomial infections, posing a significant risk in immunocompromised individuals. As the majority of systemic C. albicans infections stem from endogenous gastrointestinal (GI) colonization, understanding the mechanisms associated with GI colonization is essential in the development of novel methods to prevent C. albicans-related mortality. In this study, we investigated the role of microbial-derived short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs) including acetate, butyrate, and propionate on growth, morphogenesis, and GI colonization of C. albicans. Our results indicate that cefoperazone-treated mice susceptible to C. albicans infection had significantly decreased levels of SCFAs in the cecal contents that correlate with a higher fungal load in the feces. Further, using in vivo concentration of SCFAs, we demonstrated that SCFAs inhibit the growth, germ tube, hyphae and biofilm development of C. albicans in vitro. Collectively, results from this study demonstrate that antibiotic-induced decreases in the levels of SCFAs in the cecum enhances the growth and GI colonization of C. albicans.

One potential push away from health may be antibiotic use. By killing short-chain fatty acid production vis-a-vis the killing of SCFA-producing bacteria, the gut becomes overburdened with pathogenic microbes:

Antibiotic treatment in mice and humans alters the composition of gut microbiota, ultimately leading to changes in the levels of microbial-derived gut metabolites, mainly bile acids and short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs)2428. Alterations in the normal levels of microbial-derived bile acids and SCFAs have been implicated in the growth, colonization, and pathogenesis of enteric pathogens including C. difficile 24,25,28. Moreover, we have recently demonstrated that microbial-derived bile acids play an important role in the GI colonization of C. albicans 29 30

SCFA's not only keep pathogenic microbes under control, they also serve as food for the outer/inner intestinal wall, thus protecting against leaky gut. I will soon experiment with a sodium butyrate product I've seen on Amazon and then post my thoughts on this as results come in.
Oil of Oregano healed infections I have gotten so it's good against bad bacteria. I've used it a lot. But the butyrate is really helping my IBS. It's worth giving it a shot. It has calming effect. Makes my gut feel good. I'm guessing it's working against the microbes/ candida.
 

GorillaHead

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Oct 21, 2018
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USA
High dose methylene blue causes me to have UC symptoms and possibly milk. Apple pectin and niacin cure my symptoms. This has been tried over and over and over.
 

Christoph

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Mar 8, 2017
Messages
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Location
Reno, NV
Here's a very interesting article in the NY Times. It's very recent:

In the Pancreas, Common Fungi May Drive Cancer
In the Pancreas, Common Fungi May Drive Cancer

In mice, the types of fungi that ended up in the pancreas were usually very different from those that remained in the gut. Ascomycota and Basidiomycota were the only varieties of fungi that colonized pancreatic tissue.

One particular fungus was the most abundant in the pancreas: a genus of Basidiomycota called Malassezia, which is typically found on the skin and scalp of animals and humans, and can cause skin irritation and dandruff. A few studies have also linked the yeast to inflammatory bowel diseases, but the new finding is the first to link it to cancer.

The results show that Malassezia was not only abundant in mice that got pancreatic tumors, it was also present in extremely high numbers in samples from pancreatic cancer patients, said Dr. Berk Aykut, a postdoctoral researcher in Dr. Miller’s lab.

Administering an antifungal drug got rid of the fungi in mice and kept tumors from developing. And when the treated mice again received the yeast, their tumors started growing once more — an indication, Dr. Aykut said, that the fungal cells were driving the tumors’ growth. Infecting a control group of mice with different fungi did not accelerate their cancer.
 

Goobz

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Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Messages
302
Location
Australia
Here's a very interesting article in the NY Times. It's very recent:

In the Pancreas, Common Fungi May Drive Cancer
In the Pancreas, Common Fungi May Drive Cancer

In mice, the types of fungi that ended up in the pancreas were usually very different from those that remained in the gut. Ascomycota and Basidiomycota were the only varieties of fungi that colonized pancreatic tissue.

One particular fungus was the most abundant in the pancreas: a genus of Basidiomycota called Malassezia, which is typically found on the skin and scalp of animals and humans, and can cause skin irritation and dandruff. A few studies have also linked the yeast to inflammatory bowel diseases, but the new finding is the first to link it to cancer.

The results show that Malassezia was not only abundant in mice that got pancreatic tumors, it was also present in extremely high numbers in samples from pancreatic cancer patients, said Dr. Berk Aykut, a postdoctoral researcher in Dr. Miller’s lab.

Administering an antifungal drug got rid of the fungi in mice and kept tumors from developing. And when the treated mice again received the yeast, their tumors started growing once more — an indication, Dr. Aykut said, that the fungal cells were driving the tumors’ growth. Infecting a control group of mice with different fungi did not accelerate their cancer.

Wow! Very interesting

And yikes - that is the same yeast found on the skin of Parkinson’s patients, causing seb derm and the musky odour typical of PD
 

Jake sullivan

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Oct 3, 2016
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@haidut I did some research on the mycobacterium and ironically most sources of exposure point towards dairy products being the source of contamination, so this is an issue i feel we should discuss in the Peat forum, because if mycobacterium bacteria is either causing or contributing to crohn's this needs to be addressed because dairy products contaminated with this could be very bad news for people on here consuming large amounts of dairy, I at least notice this in myself, certain dairy products are so inconsistant with me and i've noticed i seem to get extremely sick off certain ones or even the same product then next week it's fine, i believe i've narrowed it down to the dairy products and their inconsistency, maybe the issue is also commercial dairy products instead of grass fed dairy products,

a lot of people on the forum here are so back and forth with dairy and i wonder if it could be due to the low quality commercialized dairy products that may be contaminated with the mycobacterium, and not even just this, there is a lot of studies done analyzing dairy products showing some contain high levels of e-coli and other gram negative species,

if all of this is true. this could be the reason dairy is so often associated with leaky gut and dysbiosis,

so maybe it's not dairy products in general, but rather the contamination of dairy products with harmful microbes due to the unsanitary living situations of the cows, such as eating grains contaminated with aflatoxin etc.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis causes Crohn's disease in some inflammatory bowel disease patients

New research explains MAP found in pasteurised milk | PBD Biotech

So i've just been scimming through various articles / studies and almost ALL of them point towards dairy being the main concern of exposure
 

Texon

Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2016
Messages
432
@haidut I did some research on the mycobacterium and ironically most sources of exposure point towards dairy products being the source of contamination, so this is an issue i feel we should discuss in the Peat forum, because if mycobacterium bacteria is either causing or contributing to crohn's this needs to be addressed because dairy products contaminated with this could be very bad news for people on here consuming large amounts of dairy, I at least notice this in myself, certain dairy products are so inconsistant with me and i've noticed i seem to get extremely sick off certain ones or even the same product then next week it's fine, i believe i've narrowed it down to the dairy products and their inconsistency, maybe the issue is also commercial dairy products instead of grass fed dairy products,

a lot of people on the forum here are so back and forth with dairy and i wonder if it could be due to the low quality commercialized dairy products that may be contaminated with the mycobacterium, and not even just this, there is a lot of studies done analyzing dairy products showing some contain high levels of e-coli and other gram negative species,

if all of this is true. this could be the reason dairy is so often associated with leaky gut and dysbiosis,

so maybe it's not dairy products in general, but rather the contamination of dairy products with harmful microbes due to the unsanitary living situations of the cows, such as eating grains contaminated with aflatoxin etc.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

Mycobacterium avium subspecies paratuberculosis causes Crohn's disease in some inflammatory bowel disease patients

New research explains MAP found in pasteurised milk | PBD Biotech

So i've just been scimming through various articles / studies and almost ALL of them point towards dairy being the main concern of exposure
With all these exotic microbes in play, it seems like panacur c aka fenbendazole (small animal dose packets from the pet store), which is an antiparasitic that even cures cancer, might be helpful for these cases.
 

Orius

Member
Joined
Dec 8, 2017
Messages
117
I have IBD and know a lot about the subject of MAP as I tested positive for it and tried the triple antibiotic treatment for it.

The subject is complicated. First of all, most commercial dairy does not have MAP in it because cattle infected with it develop Johne's disease and get treated with TB meds or put down. It's not pervasive. Even so, avoiding dairy won't help. MAP is everywhere. It's even in drinking water because chlorination won't kill it.

However, the issue goes deeper. The lead MAP researchers in the world admit that MAP is present in healthy populations. Most people have it. The issue is why the immune system keeps it in check in most people but not in a minority.

The Crohn's map vaccine is a project aimed at giving people a T cell injection so that people with defective T cells can get immune training to recognize intracellular MAP invasion. If it works, and if MAP causes Crohn's, then it should eliminate Crohn's.

The MAP antibiotics didn't work for me.theh devastated my gut and it took years to recover just from that.

Not being able to tolerate dairy, even intermittently, has other explanations. Gut disease is becoming epidemic. Our food systems have widespread contamination issues, pesticides, and antibiotics. Combined with modern stress, gut erosion is inevitable.

I'm dubious of the MAP hypothesis because in the focus groups of people with Crohn's, the data was all over the place. Some people had the highest MAP numbers in their blood when they were in remission while other people tested lower than their previous tests while in a bowel flare. I myself had low numbers when I was dying from a flare but high numbers later.

Similarly... I talked to a genomics researcher recently. She said some people test high in gut pathogens and then see naturopaths to do pathogen protocols. Their guts heal and they get their lives back, but still test positive in those pathogens!

So it's not as simple as attacking pathogens. I think we are dealing with complex biology that's an intersection between gut ecology, immunity, genetics, physical health, food systems, and whether gut pathogens are in an aggressive or commensal state. Most people have gut pathogens but they are not being harmed by them.
 
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