Using Vitamins (biotin) For Improving Glucose Control

[Lin]

post 69839 The study suggests that the primary reason for an acute dose of biotin-induced loss of pregnancy is blockage of estrogen production, which probably regulates endogenous progesterone secretion. The associated metabolic derangements are probably secondary to estrogen deficiency and are discussed."

Hey, What about this, "loss of pregnancy" statement? Seem kind of important...

 

[cantstoppeating]

...

Here is some other food for thought. If stress is really not good for us or for any of the studied animals so far then try to think about how valid is the hypothesis of "progress through stress and survival of the fittest".
Yes, I do mean the current theory of evolution and widely accepted business practices (purportedly modeled after evolution). There is no reasonable doubt about the validity of evolution as a theory of organisms evolving. I am questioning the part that is happens through constant stress and survival strain. How can you expect an organism to continuously evolve into a higher being if constant stress is the hallmark of regress??!

This definitely needs to be a podcast topic.

 

[haidut]

post 102414

post 69839 The study suggests that the primary reason for an acute dose of biotin-induced loss of pregnancy is blockage of estrogen production, which probably regulates endogenous progesterone secretion. The associated metabolic derangements are probably secondary to estrogen deficiency and are discussed."

Hey, What about this, "loss of pregnancy" statement? Seem kind of important...

Yeah, but the study used the human equivalent of 1.5g of biotin. Most capsules do not go over 5mg per capsule so to get to that level you'd need 300 capsules. I don't think anybody is in danger of aborting their child due to biotin provided they use the doses available in most supplements.
The human study with MS used 300mg - 600mg, and given how estrogen is involved in directly causing MS, I'd say biotin is probably an alternative to progesterone and aromatase inhibitors for people who want to lower their estrogen.

 

[haidut]

post 102415

...

Here is some other food for thought. If stress is really not good for us or for any of the studied animals so far then try to think about how valid is the hypothesis of "progress through stress and survival of the fittest".
Yes, I do mean the current theory of evolution and widely accepted business practices (purportedly modeled after evolution). There is no reasonable doubt about the validity of evolution as a theory of organisms evolving. I am questioning the part that is happens through constant stress and survival strain. How can you expect an organism to continuously evolve into a higher being if constant stress is the hallmark of regress??!

This definitely needs to be a podcast topic.

Feel free to suggest to Danny Roddy He said he will solicit opinion on podcast topics for the discussions with me.

 

[supercoolguy]

Here is some other food for thought. If stress is really not good for us or for any of the studied animals so far then try to think about how valid is the hypothesis of "progress through stress and survival of the fittest".
Yes, I do mean the current theory of evolution and widely accepted business practices (purportedly modeled after evolution). There is no reasonable doubt about the validity of evolution as a theory of organisms evolving. I am questioning the part that is happens through constant stress and survival strain. How can you expect an organism to continuously evolve into a higher being if constant stress is the hallmark of regress??!

(Off Topic)
This Constant Stress mentality exists in corp America. Try pointing out that losing proposition to a Sales manager making $100k/yr. and you will get the blankest stair imaginable. (Huge expensive turnover rate and i still couldn't make a dent) Even this psycho landlord i rent from has the mentality that in order to win somebody has to lose in some way and That becomes the focus. Its not from nature...it a doctrine of men and motives.

 

[haidut]

post 102456

Here is some other food for thought. If stress is really not good for us or for any of the studied animals so far then try to think about how valid is the hypothesis of "progress through stress and survival of the fittest".
Yes, I do mean the current theory of evolution and widely accepted business practices (purportedly modeled after evolution). There is no reasonable doubt about the validity of evolution as a theory of organisms evolving. I am questioning the part that is happens through constant stress and survival strain. How can you expect an organism to continuously evolve into a higher being if constant stress is the hallmark of regress??!

(Off Topic)
This Constant Stress mentality exists in corp America. Try pointing out that losing proposition to a Sales manager making $100k/yr. and you will get the blankest stair imaginable. (Huge expensive turnover rate and i still couldn't make a dent) Even this psycho landlord i rent from has the mentality that in order to win somebody has to lose in some way and That becomes the focus. Its not from nature...it a doctrine of men and motives.

Thanks. My point exactly - it's a human creation, for the benefit of a few lucky ones.

 

[narouz]

post 69861 I remember any more than 3500mcg would give me the same fat-starved feeling as niacinamide, so I can confirm this.

You mean you feel like you crave eating some fat...?

 

[Such_Saturation]

post 102461

post 69861 I remember any more than 3500mcg would give me the same fat-starved feeling as niacinamide, so I can confirm this.

You mean you feel like you crave eating some fat...?

No but I felt drained and couldn't really move.

 

[Such_Saturation]

post 102456 Here is some other food for thought. If stress is really not good for us or for any of the studied animals so far then try to think about how valid is the hypothesis of "progress through stress and survival of the fittest".
Yes, I do mean the current theory of evolution and widely accepted business practices (purportedly modeled after evolution). There is no reasonable doubt about the validity of evolution as a theory of organisms evolving. I am questioning the part that is happens through constant stress and survival strain. How can you expect an organism to continuously evolve into a higher being if constant stress is the hallmark of regress??!

(Off Topic)
This Constant Stress mentality exists in corp America. Try pointing out that losing proposition to a Sales manager making $100k/yr. and you will get the blankest stair imaginable. (Huge expensive turnover rate and i still couldn't make a dent) Even this psycho landlord i rent from has the mentality that in order to win somebody has to lose in some way and That becomes the focus. Its not from nature...it a doctrine of men and motives.

Stress signals a scarcity of energy. With less energy there is less capacity to work coherently as a group, which also means there is less ability to acquire energy, and so competition is the natural approach to this.

 

[haidut]

post 102470

post 102456 Here is some other food for thought. If stress is really not good for us or for any of the studied animals so far then try to think about how valid is the hypothesis of "progress through stress and survival of the fittest".
Yes, I do mean the current theory of evolution and widely accepted business practices (purportedly modeled after evolution). There is no reasonable doubt about the validity of evolution as a theory of organisms evolving. I am questioning the part that is happens through constant stress and survival strain. How can you expect an organism to continuously evolve into a higher being if constant stress is the hallmark of regress??!

(Off Topic)
This Constant Stress mentality exists in corp America. Try pointing out that losing proposition to a Sales manager making $100k/yr. and you will get the blankest stair imaginable. (Huge expensive turnover rate and i still couldn't make a dent) Even this psycho landlord i rent from has the mentality that in order to win somebody has to lose in some way and That becomes the focus. Its not from nature...it a doctrine of men and motives.

Stress signals a scarcity of energy. With less energy there is less capacity to work coherently as a group, which also means there is less ability to acquire energy, and so competition is the natural approach to this.

Right, scarcity leads to competition. But what I am wondering is how is this scarcity conducive to creating higher and higher forms of life? Maybe true evolution only happens in times of plenty?

 

[Nicholas]

post 102406

post 102395

post 102363

post 102335

post 102331 do you realize how crazy it sounds to say that a dietary group needs a compensatory supplement to be normal? It's like the thinking of vegetarians taking b-vitamins to be normal. i keep thinking of that quote from the tiger documentary, "if the treatments aren't working, it means our model is not accurate". the peatarian model (or understanding of the body and diet) is not accurate.

Ray Peat has said, and I paraphrase, that the body might need unphysiological doses of a certain vitamin/mineral/hormones to overcome the state its in.

Yes, he talked about it many times, but the one I remember most clearly is the article about riboflavin and the
retina.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ro ... ging.shtml
"...But in reality, nutritional requirements are strongly influenced by history and present circumstances. For example, when corneal mitochondria have been damaged by riboflavin deficiency, they have been found to subsequently require more than the normal amount of the vitamin to function properly. And the presence of a certain amount of one nutrient often increases or decreases the amount of other nutrients needed."

oh, of course. but you introduced this post mentioning problems on the peatarian diet. So you're saying with this quote and your intro. that Ray Peat is recommending unphysiological doses of a supplement/s to counteract damage from a diet named after him? Shouldn't we be addressing the flaws in the "Peatarian way" rather than trying to use supplements to make a faulty "way" "work"??

Yes and no. I introduced this post since some people have blood sugar issues when getting on the Peat diet. That pathological reason is not the Peat diet but the fact that through years of burning fat they have become insulin resistant, so eating glucose initially results in high blood glucose. In other words, hypothyroid people have high adrenalin and cortisol and as such lose muscle, have high lipolysis and through the Randle cycle are unable to metabolize glucose properly. Some of the B vitamins, like biotin, are very helpful in maintaining proper glucose control and can help restore insulin sensitivity while the person works on lowering the stress hormones. I, personally, also had blood sugar issues back in 2012 when I first tried the Peat diet but they went away after a few months on 1,500mg niacinamide and high dose aspirin. So, if your insulin sensitivity is fine then you will have no problems with the Peat diet.
It's really that simple really. If you have chronic stress, your sympathetic system will be in overdrive and there may even be some adaptive changes so that it stays overactive even after months on the Peat diet. So, high adrenalin and high cortisol due to high stress will keep you insulin resistant until these hormones are lowered somehow and excessive lipolysis stops. How you lower stress hormones is a whole different issue. Some people do fine just by increasing sugar intake, other may need supplementation with aspirin and the B vitamins, and then others still may need anti-stress drugs like clonidine and cyproheptadine. Remember, insulin resistance is reversible, and has been done many times. Some of the most effective drugs are inhibitors of 11beta-HSD1, which is repsonsible for synthesizing cortisol. If the person is in the group where the Peat diet is making things worse, I would consider taking some of the vitamins and supplements mentioned on the forum, and if that does not work either it's time to talk to your doctor about clonidine/cyproheptadine/bromocriptine/lisuride and so on. Bromocriptine is approved for treating type II diabetes in the USA. Why do you think this is so? Because it lowers both adrenaline and cortisol and lowers free fatty acids.
So, my gripes with the Peat diet were due to my own ignorance at the time. With enough reading and experimentation you will find out the man is right just about 100% of the time.
Here is some other food for thought. If stress is really not good for us or for any of the studied animals so far then try to think about how valid is the hypothesis of "progress through stress and survival of the fittest".
Yes, I do mean the current theory of evolution and widely accepted business practices (purportedly modeled after evolution). There is no reasonable doubt about the validity of evolution as a theory of organisms evolving. I am questioning the part that is happens through constant stress and survival strain. How can you expect an organism to continuously evolve into a higher being if constant stress is the hallmark of regress??!

i guess i would have to back up and ask you what the Peat diet is. You seem to be using it very specifically. And if you are using the term very specifically and recommending people take certain supplements or other routes to make the Peat diet work for them, you are implying that a very specific diet is the answer to people's health problems and that there is often a specific subset of people that struggle with this very specific diet. If you are saying this, how are you or anyone else here who supports some kind of Peat diet any different from all the other people out in the world putting out diet books as some form of an answer to people's problems? I have no idea why you brought up the stuff on evolution.

 

[Nicholas]

post 102396

post 102395 So you're saying with this quote and your intro. that Ray Peat is recommending unphysiological doses of a supplement/s to counteract damage from a diet named after him?

Other then you, who implied that this diet was causing damage?

...damaged by riboflavin deficiency

The damage was done and needs to be overcome and sometimes that takes extraordinary measures.

In a manner of speaking, Haidut did in his very first sentence....that some people develop health problems when they start a peat diet. He later says that it's not the Peat diet that causes the damage, but the state of health that the individuals come into the peat diet with.

i have no idea what the peat diet is, so i haven't personally experimented with it to see if i experience negative or positive reactions to it.

 

[Such_Saturation]

post 102474

post 102470

post 102456 Here is some other food for thought. If stress is really not good for us or for any of the studied animals so far then try to think about how valid is the hypothesis of "progress through stress and survival of the fittest".
Yes, I do mean the current theory of evolution and widely accepted business practices (purportedly modeled after evolution). There is no reasonable doubt about the validity of evolution as a theory of organisms evolving. I am questioning the part that is happens through constant stress and survival strain. How can you expect an organism to continuously evolve into a higher being if constant stress is the hallmark of regress??!

(Off Topic)
This Constant Stress mentality exists in corp America. Try pointing out that losing proposition to a Sales manager making $100k/yr. and you will get the blankest stair imaginable. (Huge expensive turnover rate and i still couldn't make a dent) Even this psycho landlord i rent from has the mentality that in order to win somebody has to lose in some way and That becomes the focus. Its not from nature...it a doctrine of men and motives.

Stress signals a scarcity of energy. With less energy there is less capacity to work coherently as a group, which also means there is less ability to acquire energy, and so competition is the natural approach to this.

Right, scarcity leads to competition. But what I am wondering is how is this scarcity conducive to creating higher and higher forms of life? Maybe true evolution only happens in times of plenty?

(Off Topic)

I figure this "competition" is simply a less efficient way to gather energy compared to how we know it can work, but it's not an absolute thing. The gathering of energy still happens and the system can then reorganize in more and more assembled and coherent way of function. This process happens faster and faster and it cannot be stopped because it has to do with entropy. Of course here or there it can go backwards for a finite amount of time. So competition isn't a true competition, but rather it is the best choice that can be made with the limited function and incomplete knowledge that the system can afford with its limited energy.

You can see this for example with stress being concentrated on the interface between the body and the outside space, or for example when you are feeling drained and decide not to help someone else who is in need. Now when you are feeling energized and you can see the whole picture and tip that beggar or do a favor with no expectation, you might still say that you are only reasoning as a race or a planet because you are still in competition with other civilizations, but this is naive because there is a sort of intrinsic knowledge of how this process goes and where it ultimately leads to, and the knowledge is part of the lowest level workings of reality that give rise to existence in the first place. It is expressed more and more visibly as you go on by way of more quickly resolved contrasts and a more rapid process of assimilation between parties. So you can see that the neo-Darwinian interpretation of competition is ingenuous and cannot self-sustain because of infinite regress when trying to follow its implications for reality.

 

[haidut]

post 102489

post 102474

post 102470

post 102456 Here is some other food for thought. If stress is really not good for us or for any of the studied animals so far then try to think about how valid is the hypothesis of "progress through stress and survival of the fittest".
Yes, I do mean the current theory of evolution and widely accepted business practices (purportedly modeled after evolution). There is no reasonable doubt about the validity of evolution as a theory of organisms evolving. I am questioning the part that is happens through constant stress and survival strain. How can you expect an organism to continuously evolve into a higher being if constant stress is the hallmark of regress??!

(Off Topic)
This Constant Stress mentality exists in corp America. Try pointing out that losing proposition to a Sales manager making $100k/yr. and you will get the blankest stair imaginable. (Huge expensive turnover rate and i still couldn't make a dent) Even this psycho landlord i rent from has the mentality that in order to win somebody has to lose in some way and That becomes the focus. Its not from nature...it a doctrine of men and motives.

Stress signals a scarcity of energy. With less energy there is less capacity to work coherently as a group, which also means there is less ability to acquire energy, and so competition is the natural approach to this.

Right, scarcity leads to competition. But what I am wondering is how is this scarcity conducive to creating higher and higher forms of life? Maybe true evolution only happens in times of plenty?

(Off Topic)

I figure this "competition" is simply a less efficient way to gather energy compared to how we know it can work, but it's not an absolute thing. The gathering of energy still happens and the system can then reorganize in more and more assembled and coherent way of function. This process happens faster and faster and it cannot be stopped because it has to do with entropy. Of course here or there it can go backwards for a finite amount of time. So competition isn't a true competition, but rather it is the best choice that can be made with the limited function and incomplete knowledge that the system can afford with its limited energy.

You can see this for example with stress being concentrated on the interface between the body and the outside space, or for example when you are feeling drained and decide not to help someone else who is in need. Now when you are feeling energized and you can see the whole picture and tip that beggar or do a favor with no expectation, you might still say that you are only reasoning as a race or a planet because you are still in competition with other civilizations, but this is naive because there is a sort of intrinsic knowledge of how this process goes and where it ultimately leads to, and the knowledge is part of the lowest level workings of reality that give rise to existence in the first place. It is expressed more and more visibly as you go on by way of more quickly resolved contrasts and a more rapid process of assimilation between parties. So you can see that the neo-Darwinian interpretation of competition is ingenuous and cannot self-sustain because of infinite regress when trying to follow its implications for reality.

Thanks a lot for the explanation. I think this should definitely be a podcast topic with Danny or here on the forum.

 

[Pointless]

I thought I might have issues with insulin sensitivity. If I eat a lot of sugar, especially juice or milk, I get very irritable and have intense dysphoria. I just feel awful. Also, when I wake up in the morning, my urine is very dark and smells like apple juice. But then again, I'm very lean and would go to starches which don't really have that effect. Huge doses of topical magnesium would help too, but only if I took it with every meal which isn't always possible, and they were starting to lose effect. Getting into Ray Peat, I have an adrenaline rush in response to tiny doses of thyroid, which indicates low glucose/glycogen because my serum electrolytes are good. So I figured I need to deal with this issue. Doing a search, lo and behold this thread.

I've been taking 5-15mg of biotin with meals the past few days. The first time I took it, my dysphoric response to sugar was just about a half hour instead of many hours. I ended up being in a great mood and very social. Now I don't get that response after a few days of biotin supplementation. My morning temp was 97.5 instead of the usual 96.0 (96.5 tops), which is unreal. I feel incredibly warm and relaxed. My response to one drop each of TyroMax and Pansterone was being very relaxed, like having low cortisol.

I'm already taking P5P and riboflavin (you mention B6/riboflavin in the OP, donno which one you're referring to because riboflavin is B2). I've done rounds of thiamine and allithiamine. But biotin is the cat's pajamas! Thanks @haidut.

 

[Pointless]

Small correction. After using just TyroMax with no pansterone, I'm getting adrenaline symptoms. So it's probably the pansterone that helped with that more than anything. But boy am I warm! The other effects seem to go with improved insulin sensitivity.

 

[haidut]

I thought I might have issues with insulin sensitivity. If I eat a lot of sugar, especially juice or milk, I get very irritable and have intense dysphoria. I just feel awful. Also, when I wake up in the morning, my urine is very dark and smells like apple juice. But then again, I'm very lean and would go to starches which don't really have that effect. Huge doses of topical magnesium would help too, but only if I took it with every meal which isn't always possible, and they were starting to lose effect. Getting into Ray Peat, I have an adrenaline rush in response to tiny doses of thyroid, which indicates low glucose/glycogen because my serum electrolytes are good. So I figured I need to deal with this issue. Doing a search, lo and behold this thread.

I've been taking 5-15mg of biotin with meals the past few days. The first time I took it, my dysphoric response to sugar was just about a half hour instead of many hours. I ended up being in a great mood and very social. Now I don't get that response after a few days of biotin supplementation. My morning temp was 97.5 instead of the usual 96.0 (96.5 tops), which is unreal. I feel incredibly warm and relaxed. My response to one drop each of TyroMax and Pansterone was being very relaxed, like having low cortisol.

I'm already taking P5P and riboflavin (you mention B6/riboflavin in the OP, donno which one you're referring to because riboflavin is B2). I've done rounds of thiamine and allithiamine. But biotin is the cat's pajamas! Thanks @haidut.

Thanks for sharing, glad you are feeling better.

 

[haidut]

Small correction. After using just TyroMax with no pansterone, I'm getting adrenaline symptoms. So it's probably the pansterone that helped with that more than anything. But boy am I warm! The other effects seem to go with improved insulin sensitivity.

So, Pansterone makes you warm? At what doses?

 

[lindsay]

I'm just discovering this biotin thread. But I find myself asking the question (as always when it comes to these B vitamins), wouldn't just eating liver regularly solve this equation? The only thing I think it's missing B Vitamin wise is B1. I'm guessing it's not enough though for someone who is depleted.

 

[Pointless]

So, Pansterone makes you warm? At what doses?

I've never tested Pansterone with before and after core temps, but I think my warmth was caused by huge amounts of sugar, thyroid, and biotin. Insulin sensitivity was holding me back from the other supplements raising my temp.

I posted my report because I feel insulin sensitivity might be holding people back from advancing their metabolism, like it was with me. 1.5 degrees it was holding me back!

FYI I take 1 drop of Pansterone a day and get mild acne with it. I've adapted to it before, so I'll increase my dose slowly from here.