?TUDCA: The Holy Grail For Liver Health?

[Lokzo]

 

[Mufasa]

Thanks for the video. I wonder what Ray Peat thinks about TUDCA.

 

[Lokzo]

Thanks for the video. I wonder what Ray Peat thinks about TUDCA.

Given the fact that he supports Taurine, I would imagine he might feel the same way about TUDCA.

@Hans have you asked him before? @charlie?

 

[Aladdin]

Should we be concerned about Tudca considering the possible harm of UDCA?

Molecular Mechanisms of Ursodeoxycholic Acid Toxicity & Side Effects: Ursodeoxycholic Acid Freezes Regeneration & Induces Hibernation Mode​

UDCA is reported to have “hepato-protective properties”. Yet, UDCA has “unanticipated” toxicity, pronounced by more than double number of deaths, and eligibility for liver transplantation compared to the control group in 28 mg/kg/day in primary sclerosing cholangitis, necessitating trial halt in North America. UDCA is associated with increase in hepatocellular carcinoma in PBC especially when it fails to achieve biochemical response (10 and 15 years incidence of 9% and 20% respectively). “Unanticipated” UDCA toxicity includes hepatitis, pruritus, cholangitis, ascites, vanishing bile duct syndrome, liver cell failure, death, severe watery diarrhea, pneumonia, dysuria, immune-suppression, mutagenic effects and withdrawal syndrome upon sudden halt. UDCA inhibits DNA repair, co-enzyme A, cyclic AMP, p53, phagocytosis, and inhibits induction of nitric oxide synthatase. It is genotoxic, exerts aneugenic activity, and arrests apoptosis even after cellular phosphatidylserine externalization.

 

[Ficini]

Should we be concerned about Tudca considering the possible harm of UDCA?

Molecular Mechanisms of Ursodeoxycholic Acid Toxicity & Side Effects: Ursodeoxycholic Acid Freezes Regeneration & Induces Hibernation Mode​

UDCA is reported to have “hepato-protective properties”. Yet, UDCA has “unanticipated” toxicity, pronounced by more than double number of deaths, and eligibility for liver transplantation compared to the control group in 28 mg/kg/day in primary sclerosing cholangitis, necessitating trial halt in North America. UDCA is associated with increase in hepatocellular carcinoma in PBC especially when it fails to achieve biochemical response (10 and 15 years incidence of 9% and 20% respectively). “Unanticipated” UDCA toxicity includes hepatitis, pruritus, cholangitis, ascites, vanishing bile duct syndrome, liver cell failure, death, severe watery diarrhea, pneumonia, dysuria, immune-suppression, mutagenic effects and withdrawal syndrome upon sudden halt. UDCA inhibits DNA repair, co-enzyme A, cyclic AMP, p53, phagocytosis, and inhibits induction of nitric oxide synthatase. It is genotoxic, exerts aneugenic activity, and arrests apoptosis even after cellular phosphatidylserine externalization.

Dude, the study discusses 28mg/kg/day. For me, that would be 2604mg, meaning 10.5 capsules/day. Not to mention how expensive this would be...
People on this forum usually talk about 250-500mg / day.

 

[jnklheimer]

Taurine is way less expensive and much safer. TUDCA can cause more damage if the dosage timing isn’t correct. Some steroid users use tudca ibecause it lowers liver enzymes while on oral steroid cycle. It’s probably unwise to rely on it in that way.

 

[TheBeard]

The only issue with bile salts is that they contain melatonin.

Other than that, they are a god sent for anyone with digestion problems.

 

[Lokzo]

The only issue with bile salts is that they contain melatonin.

Other than that, they are a god sent for anyone with digestion problems.

I have never read this?!?! Care to share brother?

 

[ursidae]

these studies are scary
I think it was helpful for my digestion but I do get liver pain from it. Thought it was a healing crisis kind of pain

 

[ursidae]

Okay after getting more liver area pain and bloodshot eyes I tested ALT and it’s 9.9 U/l. Two times lower than my lowest one previously. So TUDCA worked as advertised for that. Must be something else

 

[Lokzo]

Okay after getting more liver area pain and bloodshot eyes I tested ALT and it’s 9.9 U/l. Two times lower than my lowest one previously. So TUDCA worked as advertised for that. Must be something else

Pretty outstanding.

What dosage were you running?

 

[ursidae]

Pretty outstanding.

What dosage were you running?

I’m 50 kg so 250mg (nutricost) a day, for a little more than 30 days. I was also on metronidazole for a month last year which raised my enzymes high and caused physical pain in the liver. I think they were still not recovered to their normal level when my ALT tested at 20

I have to say I know an alcohol drinking anorexic whose health is very very damaged and their ALT is 11 so I’m not entirely sure it’s a 100% accurate measure of liver health.

 

[Motif]

So for somebody with Gilbert syndrome and constipation from probably low bile - how should this be taken?

shouid it be cycled? How?
and what would you recommend to take in the between time when I don’t take tudca?
ox bile?

 

[Matestube]

I have never read this?!?! Care to share brother?

Found something:

Therapeutic uses of animal biles in traditional Chinese medicine: An ethnopharmacological, biophysical chemical and medicinal review

Forty-four different animal biles obtained from both invertebrates and vertebrates (including human bile) have been used for centuries for a host of maladies in traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) beginning with dog, ox and common carp biles approximately ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Bile also contains a wide variety of antioxidants, the most powerful ones being bilirubin, glutathione, vitamin E, and melatonin (N-acetyl-5-methoxytryptamine)

 

[FocusedOnHealth]

Found something:

Therapeutic uses of animal biles in traditional Chinese medicine: An ethnopharmacological, biophysical chemical and medicinal review

Forty-four different animal biles obtained from both invertebrates and vertebrates (including human bile) have been used for centuries for a host of maladies in traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) beginning with dog, ox and common carp biles approximately ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Bile also contains a wide variety of antioxidants, the most powerful ones being bilirubin, glutathione, vitamin E, and melatonin (N-acetyl-5-methoxytryptamine)

You sleep well with the bile salts. At least I do. Maybe because of the melatonin in it. It gives you active dreams too. It’s also great for your libido. I noticed someone also posted that TUDCA boosted their testosterone so being that bile salts and TUDCA
are simliar, maybe that is the same with bile salts.

 

[Matestube]

You sleep well with the bile salts. At least I do. Maybe because of the melatonin in it. It gives you active dreams too. It’s also great for your libido. I noticed someone also posted that TUDCA boosted their testosterone so being that bile salts and TUDCA
are simliar, maybe that is the same with bile salts.

Bile salts in general are fat soluble, which makes them unable to unclog the liver, TUDCA is water-soluble which allows it to.
@Lokzo you confirm?

 

[FocusedOnHealth]

Bile salts in general are fat soluble, which makes them unable to unclog the liver, TUDCA is water-soluble which allows it to.
@Lokzo you confirm?

Really? Yeah, I'd like to know the answer to that too. I found TUDCA to be a bit stronger than bile salts. As I said in another thread, it gave me some cramping when I took it. Maybe that means it is working better for the liver? Also, what is the effect of TUDCA on the thyroid?

 

[Ismail]

Really? Yeah, I'd like to know the answer to that too. I found TUDCA to be a bit stronger than bile salts. As I said in another thread, it gave me some cramping when I took it. Maybe that means it is working better for the liver? Also, what is the effect of TUDCA on the thyroid?

Yes me too, I’d like to know that as well.

I’d also like to know the effect of TUDCA on the thyroid too, very good question @HealingWithPeat ?

 

[FocusedOnHealth]

Yes me too, I’d like to know that as well.

I’d also like to know the effect of TUDCA on the thyroid too, very good question @HealingWithPeat ?

I *think I’ve read that bile salts are necessary for the thyroid supportive supplements to work, so I would surmise that TUDCA would be helpful as well, but I’d to hear other’s opinions on this.

 

[golder]

Cost aside, Lokzo and others, do you think it's safe to take TUDCA year round at 250mg with breakfast? Would there be an issue running it indefinitely as it seems to help with my digestion. Thanks!