TUDCA

[Healthseeker]

Ive taken UDCA and TUDCA. And if you have a medical card, you can get UDCA very cheap with prescription. $3.

 

[kselfridge]

I have been using TUDCA at around 250mg the last couple of weeks.

This stuff makes you POOP!

I can't believe how often it makes you.

Im usually a once in the morning kind of guy, but this has ramped it up to like 3 times a day.


I have noticed energy increases from it as well. I feel like my workout performance is better and that my Urine colour is less dark than usual.

Overall, I think TUDCA is very therapeutic. I think it needs to be cycled, and also very low doses are probably still very good for liver support.

Yet again, learning so much from the Ray Peat forum. Thanks, everyone.

I’m going to agree with you here. I’ve been using it off and on after GB removal. In addition to what you mentioned I think it helps my concentration too.

 

[moa]

Good luck. Let us know how it goes. I'll do the same if I attempt it.

sure

 

[moa]

@Mossy just a quick update.

As expected, i took vitamin k2 mk-4 1mg with 250ug mk-7, for a few days, and indeed, it seems not to trigger any longer any kind of excessive toxic bile, after the initial "detox" or whatever, so seems to be only a mild initial side effect that goes away. Also I've been taking D3 this past few months and i eat at least 800mg calcium or more the days when i take K2, to ensure is not causing any other parathyroid problem.

same for coffee, both the bile trigger and anxiety tend to go away after a few days or weeks of consuming it with enaught carbs.

regarding thiamin, I've started again with only 100mg per day, is possible it does raise a bit the gut sensibility and histamine, but nothing too bad, compared to taking 250mg or 1000mg per day. i take it with b complex, copper, vitamin C and it seems it's much better tolerated than higher doses.

right now I'll try to add taurine 1g first, then 2g per day.

regarding magnesium, this has been a major trigger for me, toxic bile and GERD like symptoms, for me it's been the most irritating, almost similar to very high dose thiamin. I'm not yet ready to try again magnesium, maybe later.

 

[moa]

I think, this is what's going on with my genes having both CBS upregulation and the gene B12 dependent and B2 one, mthfr, putting much pressure on the sulfur path.

i had problems with that until i started supplementing molybdenum, but never knew about ammonia.

indeed, i do have ammonia symptoms when i eat lots of proteins sometimes.

and also mast cell activation syndrome i think i could very well have this too.

bh4, and i think it's low, i do drink orange juice sometimes but don't have many other folates in my diet excepting when i take b complex.

actually it is this mutation that has Taurine issues -
CBS Mutations

CBS (cystathionine beta synthase) catalyzes the first step of the transsulfuration pathway, from homocysteine to cystathionine. CBS defects are actually an upregulation of the CBS enzyme. This means the enzyme works too fast. In these patients, it's common to see low levels of cystathionine and homocysteine since there is a rapid conversion to taurine. This leads to high levels of taurine and ammonia. The CBS upregulation has been clinically observed to result in sulfur intolerance in some patients. It has also been observed that BH4 can also become depleted with a CBS upregulation. BH4 helps regulate neurotransmitters and mood. Other mutations, such as MTHFR A1298C, Chronic bacterial infections, and aluminum can also lead to low BH4 levels. Lack of BH4 can lead to mast cell degranulation and possibly mast cell activation disorder (MCAD).

Main thing is BH4 is vital for most neurotransmitters and therefore cognitive function. Its needed for phenylalanine to tyrosine conversion and tyrosine to L-dopa conversion. Meanings its vital to get to L-dopa and consequently to have enough catecholamines dopamine, noradrenaline, and adrenaline. Vitamin C and folate/folic acid are the two main nutrients involved in BH4 and its recycling. You may be chronically low in folates.

 

[moa]

Many people with CBS and BHMT abnormalities will also bear MTHFR (compromising methyl-folate generation) and MTRR (compromising methyl-B12) abnormalities, and thus they will need and benefit from corresponding supplementation (with these molecules that you are having trouble making). However, if you supplement heavily with methyl-folate, methy-B12, or BH4, before we have the CBS/BHMT physiology under control (until you have reduced your sulfate status such that glutathione and cysteine assimilation improves) then you will be subjecting yourself to a “sulfite surge”. You will feel great for 1-2 days, as beneficial neurotransmitters are generated. Methyl-folate and methyl-B12 detox pathways will then open up, creating toxic intermediates that cannot be metabolized further due to the block in glutathione utilization – and then you will feel horrible. You need to resist the temptation to treat MTHFR/MTRR abnormalities until CBS/BHMT are under control.

 

[Mossy]

@Mossy just a quick update.

As expected, i took vitamin k2 mk-4 1mg with 250ug mk-7, for a few days, and indeed, it seems not to trigger any longer any kind of excessive toxic bile, after the initial "detox" or whatever, so seems to be only a mild initial side effect that goes away. Also I've been taking D3 this past few months and i eat at least 800mg calcium or more the days when i take K2, to ensure is not causing any other parathyroid problem.

same for coffee, both the bile trigger and anxiety tend to go away after a few days or weeks of consuming it with enaught carbs.

regarding thiamin, I've started again with only 100mg per day, is possible it does raise a bit the gut sensibility and histamine, but nothing too bad, compared to taking 250mg or 1000mg per day. i take it with b complex, copper, vitamin C and it seems it's much better tolerated than higher doses.

right now I'll try to add taurine 1g first, then 2g per day.

regarding magnesium, this has been a major trigger for me, toxic bile and GERD like symptoms, for me it's been the most irritating, almost similar to very high dose thiamin. I'm not yet ready to try again magnesium, maybe later.

You are very fortunate. If I were to take any of this supplements I would not feel well. So, it sounds like you feel toxic bile is at the root of your problems and that you no longer have it in your system, which is why you can take these supplements now with no ill effects? Do you feel these supplement are still promoting bile, just that it's not "toxic"?

 

[moa]

You are very fortunate. If I were to take any of this supplements I would not feel well. So, it sounds like you feel toxic bile is at the root of your problems and that you no longer have it in your system, which is why you can take these supplements now with no ill effects? Do you feel these supplement are still promoting bile, just that it's not "toxic"?

i analyse every stool and i can say that 2 weeks ago, before i started K2 i had my poo color varying between somehow pale or yellow and more constipated other days.

when i started k2 i experienced symptoms, of toxic bile, and my poo became very sticky and either very bright yellow first or dark brown the next one.

then it improved and now, this past few days is color is normal brown but on the dark side, it's consistency is normal, and it's not been sticky at all, i had even some more than once dry clean swipe this past few days, meaning it's not sticky any longer at all.

meaning my bile flow is now good but not toxic any longer, compared to more pale stools i had before a started K2.

regarding thiamin, actually, it does increase cramps a bit despite my stool color and consistency being perfect, is less painful with 100mg than when i had 1000mg 2 months ago. so i decided to stop that for now and only take 5mg in my multi b for now. it also caused skin high histamine symptoms like sneezing, skin itching, insomnia, feeling energized awake but in a stressful way, etc.

so yes, it seems i adapted somehow, but i think it's my gut Flora that developed and it's able to process bile now and avoid more yellow stools. also maybe there was an initial dump of more sticky bile a few days and now maybe it's still a bit toxic but not as much to cause stickiness. i still need to eat some fiber to feel good (some salad and carrots, one , etc, not much but i do crave at least some fiber foods with my fruit juice, potatoes and meat/milk/cheese diet).

this past few days i ate blue cheese, i linked that to my histamine problems, a trigger, beside thiamine intake. so I need to buy cheese with less histamine / less tyramine.

i will focus now on reducing histamine and increasing bh4.

copper, some zinc, b2 p5p, vitamin C liposomal non acid, folate, TMG, while still taking d3, k2 and probably start taurine too. i will only stop high thiamine for now.

i am also considering taking molybdenum more often, and probably i need to take some sulfur like MSM but maybe if i take taurine that's enaught sulfur for now, don't want to mess things up with MSM right now, maybe try it later.

I'm not sure if i should take niacinamide too, cause it will increase bh4, but it will also decrease methylation and increase the CBS pathway witch i don't want.

 

[moa]

i mean methyl folate (not simple folate), b2 r5p (not p5p) and methyl B12

 

[moa]

seems NAC is better than MSM for CBS upregulation.

i have used r-ala alpha lipoic acid, in the past, long time ago, witch i think helped me after lead poisoning (2 years after the poisoning).

maybe i need to take NAC or ALA with some selenium too.

 

[moa]

@Mossy honestly, I'm taking all this with a certain amount of acceptable "moderate' risk. i know that low dose b vitamins won't "kill" me so i take them long term. for the other things, i take only for a week or two, then pause, excepting vitamin D3 that's also well known to not cause problems in moderate doses.

so, yes I'm tired of waiting for my health to improve, need to do something, as long as it's nothing very dangerous, if i feel bad I'll stop.

right now i feel strange, not bad, but strange, mentally.

my body pain is gone, like gut pain, after taking things to lower histamine, especially methylation support : 1mg folate, r5p 160mg in two days, methyl b12 , TMG 2g in two days, etc.

i feel ok in my body, blood pressure back to normal, still a bit high energy alert but confused mentally.

not necessarily bad, but I'm not used to feel like this, it's strange, and that kind of scares me.

maybe it's good, but I'm sure it's because i took the folate yesterday or something else like 1g taurine or whatever.

I'll just stop for now, i think a few days to see how i feel without supplements and and then I'll try again slowly, one by one. maybe 200ug methyl folate is enaught even for bh4. i think I'll just take B12 and r5p, nothing else for methylation, and would rather take r-ala, molybdenum and some selenium for reducing oxydative stress.

anybody know about Fisetin or Luteolin for increasing the Molybdenum dependent enzyme, sulfate oxydase (suox-1) ? the dosage to use ?

Or maybe it's better to take apigenin, but i can only find 100mg dosage of apigenin, while the two other sell in up to 500mg liposomal.

Quercetin and Luteolin I've heard it's possible not as good in older posts.

 

[moa]

I'm not sure Fisetin is involved in suox-1 enzyme, but it does help with h2s:

https://www.jstor.org/stable/24596438

 

[Mossy]

i analyse every stool and i can say that 2 weeks ago, before i started K2 i had my poo color varying between somehow pale or yellow and more constipated other days.

when i started k2 i experienced symptoms, of toxic bile, and my poo became very sticky and either very bright yellow first or dark brown the next one.

then it improved and now, this past few days is color is normal brown but on the dark side, it's consistency is normal, and it's not been sticky at all, i had even some more than once dry clean swipe this past few days, meaning it's not sticky any longer at all.

meaning my bile flow is now good but not toxic any longer, compared to more pale stools i had before a started K2.

regarding thiamin, actually, it does increase cramps a bit despite my stool color and consistency being perfect, is less painful with 100mg than when i had 1000mg 2 months ago. so i decided to stop that for now and only take 5mg in my multi b for now. it also caused skin high histamine symptoms like sneezing, skin itching, insomnia, feeling energized awake but in a stressful way, etc.

so yes, it seems i adapted somehow, but i think it's my gut Flora that developed and it's able to process bile now and avoid more yellow stools. also maybe there was an initial dump of more sticky bile a few days and now maybe it's still a bit toxic but not as much to cause stickiness. i still need to eat some fiber to feel good (some salad and carrots, one , etc, not much but i do crave at least some fiber foods with my fruit juice, potatoes and meat/milk/cheese diet).

this past few days i ate blue cheese, i linked that to my histamine problems, a trigger, beside thiamine intake. so I need to buy cheese with less histamine / less tyramine.

i will focus now on reducing histamine and increasing bh4.

copper, some zinc, b2 p5p, vitamin C liposomal non acid, folate, TMG, while still taking d3, k2 and probably start taurine too. i will only stop high thiamine for now.

i am also considering taking molybdenum more often, and probably i need to take some sulfur like MSM but maybe if i take taurine that's enaught sulfur for now, don't want to mess things up with MSM right now, maybe try it later.

I'm not sure if i should take niacinamide too, cause it will increase bh4, but it will also decrease methylation and increase the CBS pathway witch i don't want.

That is an interesting thought, that as bile becomes non-toxic supplements that were once troublesome no longer are. Do you attribute the supplements themselves to eliminating the toxic bile?

 

[Mossy]

@Mossy honestly, I'm taking all this with a certain amount of acceptable "moderate' risk. i know that low dose b vitamins won't "kill" me so i take them long term. for the other things, i take only for a week or two, then pause, excepting vitamin D3 that's also well known to not cause problems in moderate doses.

so, yes I'm tired of waiting for my health to improve, need to do something, as long as it's nothing very dangerous, if i feel bad I'll stop.

right now i feel strange, not bad, but strange, mentally.

my body pain is gone, like gut pain, after taking things to lower histamine, especially methylation support : 1mg folate, r5p 160mg in two days, methyl b12 , TMG 2g in two days, etc.

i feel ok in my body, blood pressure back to normal, still a bit high energy alert but confused mentally.

not necessarily bad, but I'm not used to feel like this, it's strange, and that kind of scares me.

maybe it's good, but I'm sure it's because i took the folate yesterday or something else like 1g taurine or whatever.

I'll just stop for now, i think a few days to see how i feel without supplements and and then I'll try again slowly, one by one. maybe 200ug methyl folate is enaught even for bh4. i think I'll just take B12 and r5p, nothing else for methylation, and would rather take r-ala, molybdenum and some selenium for reducing oxydative stress.

anybody know about Fisetin or Luteolin for increasing the Molybdenum dependent enzyme, sulfate oxydase (suox-1) ? the dosage to use ?

Or maybe it's better to take apigenin, but i can only find 100mg dosage of apigenin, while the two other sell in up to 500mg liposomal.

Quercetin and Luteolin I've heard it's possible not as good in older posts.

I went through that, taking everything in an attempt to feel better, but I never did, I always felt off. Which leads me to think supplements should only be taken on an as-needed basis, temporarily, to fix a problem. Even as I write that I think that's probably the perspective of most, it's just that the problem never gets fixed, so we keep on trying and trying and trying!

There is a philosophy in the business world—"fail quickly". That is to say, learn your mistakes quickly: recognize what does and doesn't work, and be tuned to what is and isn't needed. I think that same philosophy could be applied to taking supplements and solving health issues. As this forum has proved, it's a difficult task to heal oneself.

 

[moa]

@Mossy i think the my liver is holding to some toxins, when they are released, it triggered histamine.

it may be just bile salts, old bile salts before the liver starts creating more and better quality.

I'm not sure, who knows? it gave me some moderate gallbladder pain the first day on K2, but only the first day.

even the gallbladder was painful , so what could irritate even the gallbladder ?

 

[moa]

I went through that, taking everything in an attempt to feel better, but I never did, I always felt off. Which leads me to think supplements should only be taken on an as-needed basis, temporarily, to fix a problem. Even as I write that I think that's probably the perspective of most, it's just that the problem never gets fixed, so we keep on trying and trying and trying!

There is a philosophy in the business world—"fail quickly". That is to say, learn your mistakes quickly: recognize what does and doesn't work, and be tuned to what is and isn't needed. I think that same philosophy could be applied to taking supplements and solving health issues. As this forum has proved, it's a difficult task to heal oneself.

I'm sure it would be much more easy if nail analysis would be done automatically, and blood tests without the protocols of the industry at least cost, with technology that would cost less of mass produced.

how many hospitals test vitamin deficiencies ? I've had a vitamin deficiency or more when i was teenager, maybe biotin, cause i still have the marks near the nose where my skin was distroyed, visible sign, but i guess they never look for that and really i feel like even when is visible on the face, they don't check.

because foods are fortified now, they think it's fixed (are they fortified in biotin by the way ???)

 

[Healthseeker]

I think, this is what's going on with my genes having both CBS upregulation and the gene B12 dependent and B2 one, mthfr, putting much pressure on the sulfur path.

i had problems with that until i started supplementing molybdenum, but never knew about ammonia.

indeed, i do have ammonia symptoms when i eat lots of proteins sometimes.

and also mast cell activation syndrome i think i could very well have this too.

bh4, and i think it's low, i do drink orange juice sometimes but don't have many other folates in my diet excepting when i take b complex.

have you seen the stuff with chris masterjohn were he needed biotin.

 

[Healthseeker]

@Mossy i think the my liver is holding to some toxins, when they are released, it triggered histamine.

it may be just bile salts, old bile salts before the liver starts creating more and better quality.

I'm not sure, who knows? it gave me some moderate gallbladder pain the first day on K2, but only the first day.

even the gallbladder was painful , so what could irritate even the gallbladder ?

Your gallbladder could be just irritated cause its irritated, its its own organ with its own health status. You can do a little flush, swig a chug of olive oil and take about 4 senna laxatives on a mostly empty stomach. and/or they say drink lemon or grapefruit juice or something like that, can help, its a little bit more involved tho, where your trying to turn bile into soapstones and poop it out, so you have fresh bile. There's manuals on it.

 

[moa]

have you seen the stuff with chris masterjohn were he needed biotin.

i don't remember.

Your gallbladder could be just irritated cause its irritated, its its own organ with its own health status. You can do a little flush, swig a chug of olive oil and take about 4 senna laxatives on a mostly empty stomach. and/or they say drink lemon or grapefruit juice or something like that, can help, its a little bit more involved tho, where your trying to turn bile into soapstones and poop it out, so you have fresh bile. There's manuals on it.

i used a German mix of ingredients that's known to flush out bile called Rowachol on empty stomach. i take it twice daily for 2 days and usually it calms down my gallbladder. with cascara sagrada infusion.

using a massage vibration tool on minimum level, very softly for 5 minutes, very carefully, seems to help too,

 

[golder]

i don't remember.


i used a German mix of ingredients that's known to flush out bile called Rowachol on empty stomach. i take it twice daily for 2 days and usually it calms down my gallbladder. with cascara sagrada infusion.

using a massage vibration tool on minimum level, very softly for 5 minutes, very carefully, seems to help too,

This is great info thanks. Where abouts do you do the gentle massage? A picture would be super helpful here, thanks!