TUDCA

[June]

Can anyone be so kind to tell me if TUDCA is alkaline in nature once in the stomach. I had a terrible reaction to Bile salts because my stomach is so alkaline and caused my SIBO/Candida to blow up. The reason for the SIBO is because my digestive system is a mess after going through long term Benzo withdrawals. I took some chinese medicine that was meant to dampen and cool my hot flashes caused by a one time stint of high dose birth control pills. Sure it worked, except it also "cooled" my stomach. I couldn't digest foods after that (this was 4 years ago). Everything I ate sat in my stomach like a rock. I'm currently taking digestive enzymes but my liver/gallbladder are borderline not functioning. I'm hoping TUDCA would be the answer, but not if it would exacerbate the SIBO by making my stomach more alkaline. I tried taking apple cider vinegar with the bile salts before but even that wasn't enough. Cheers!

 

[Don]

Can anyone be so kind to tell me if TUDCA is alkaline in nature once in the stomach. I had a terrible reaction to Bile salts because my stomach is so alkaline and caused my SIBO/Candida to blow up. The reason for the SIBO is because my digestive system is a mess after going through long term Benzo withdrawals. I took some chinese medicine that was meant to dampen and cool my hot flashes caused by a one time stint of high dose birth control pills. Sure it worked, except it also "cooled" my stomach. I couldn't digest foods after that (this was 4 years ago). Everything I ate sat in my stomach like a rock. I'm currently taking digestive enzymes but my liver/gallbladder are borderline not functioning. I'm hoping TUDCA would be the answer, but not if it would exacerbate the SIBO by making my stomach more alkaline. I tried taking apple cider vinegar with the bile salts before but even that wasn't enough. Cheers!

It does not affect me like acids or citrus do. I cannot tolerate those but take 500mg tudca every night for liver health and to help with sleep.

 

[dukesbobby777]

I can honestly say that I notice absolutely nothing from TUDCA. I've taken up to 1,000mg per day, and nothing of note (at all). At least with regular taurine I get androgenic and GABAergic effects (plus darker stools).

 

[golder]

I can honestly say that I notice absolutely nothing from TUDCA. I've taken up to 1,000mg per day, and nothing of note (at all). At least with regular taurine I get androgenic and GABAergic effects (plus darker stools).

Interesting you get good benefits from taurine but not TUDCA. Strange. What do you think the darker stools is indicitative of?

 

[Daft]

Interesting you get good benefits from taurine but not TUDCA. Strange. What do you think the darker stools is indicitative of?

Bile production!

 

[June]

It does not affect me like acids or citrus do. I cannot tolerate those but take 500mg tudca every night for liver health and to help with sleep.

I wonder if this means it's more alkaline?...

 

[Don]

I wonder if this means it's more alkaline?...

I would say yes as I cant tolerate acids at all(silent reflux)

 

[RealNeat]

Bile production!

What color were your stools before yellow/ orange?

 

[cs3000]

Can anyone be so kind to tell me if TUDCA is alkaline in nature once in the stomach. I had a terrible reaction to Bile salts because my stomach is so alkaline and caused my SIBO/Candida to blow up. The reason for the SIBO is because my digestive system is a mess after going through long term Benzo withdrawals. I took some chinese medicine that was meant to dampen and cool my hot flashes caused by a one time stint of high dose birth control pills. Sure it worked, except it also "cooled" my stomach. I couldn't digest foods after that (this was 4 years ago). Everything I ate sat in my stomach like a rock. I'm currently taking digestive enzymes but my liver/gallbladder are borderline not functioning. I'm hoping TUDCA would be the answer, but not if it would exacerbate the SIBO by making my stomach more alkaline. I tried taking apple cider vinegar with the bile salts before but even that wasn't enough. Cheers!

bit late but, first i thought they were acidic enough. but this shows correlation to decreased stomach acidity in people Increased levels of conjugated bile acids are associated with human bile reflux gastritis

We further measured the pH of the gastric juice and results were 4.62 ± 2.20, 2.73 ± 0.90, 2.37 ± 0.94, respectively in groups A to C. Moreover, the total BA levels of the three groups were positively correlated (r = 0.363, p < 0.05) with the pH of gastric juice. The conjugated BAs were significantly and positively correlated (r = 0.494, p < 0.01) with the pH whereas, the unconjugated BAs were not correlated (p = 0.595) with pH, implying that increasing gastric pH accompanies increasing amounts of BAs, especially reflux-induced conjugated BAs.



in group A that's in people with reflux so the bile acid is going back into the stomach. So probably best to take away from food. bile acids get recycled through the intestine so should still work all the same.

this one https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/301564959.pdf says "glycoconjugated and tauroconjugated bile acids are precipitated and, therefore, inactivated at pH <4 and 2 respectively" -
Glycochenodeoxycholic Acid - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics Effect of gastric pH on bile acids that have entered the stomach as a result of duodenogastric reflux - In a normal person with a gastric pH in the 1 to 3 range (a), the bile acids are inactivated by precipitation. In the partially acid suppressed state commonly present in patients on acid suppressive drugs (b), the gastric pH is in the 3 to 6 range and bile acid metabolites are in the soluble, un-ionized state where they have been shown to enter Barrett epithelial cells and induce carcinogenesis

In a patient with normal gastric acidity in the 1 to 3 pH range, bile acids precipitate into harmless insoluble molecules (Fig. 10.25). At a pH above 6, the bile acids remain in an ionized form, which precludes their entry into cells. Between a pH of 3 and 6, the bile acids and their metabolites are converted to un-ionized soluble molecules that can penetrate cell membranes and enter epithelial cells.

Acid suppression, particularly when it is incomplete as in the vast majority of patients who take these medications, both over the counter and prescribed, has the effect of increasing gastric pH into the critical 3 to 6 pH range where it promotes the generation of carcinogenic molecules from the endogenous bile acids when these are present in the stomach.


so shouldn't be any direct harm to the stomach from bile acids in typical stomach pH. but can cause direct harm if stomach is more alkali >3 pH. & indirectly if works to lower acidity too.

in terms of SIBO it should be a benefit by most mouse studies at least but so far for me results have been mixed,
is a risk to stomach pH u could try betain HCL with it

Back in the day they used to use it in sword wounds to help healing / prevent infections

 

[Rowdy Ramsay]

Can anyone be so kind to tell me if TUDCA is alkaline in nature once in the stomach. I had a terrible reaction to Bile salts because my stomach is so alkaline and caused my SIBO/Candida to blow up. The reason for the SIBO is because my digestive system is a mess after going through long term Benzo withdrawals. I took some chinese medicine that was meant to dampen and cool my hot flashes caused by a one time stint of high dose birth control pills. Sure it worked, except it also "cooled" my stomach. I couldn't digest foods after that (this was 4 years ago). Everything I ate sat in my stomach like a rock. I'm currently taking digestive enzymes but my liver/gallbladder are borderline not functioning. I'm hoping TUDCA would be the answer, but not if it would exacerbate the SIBO by making my stomach more alkaline. I tried taking apple cider vinegar with the bile salts before but even that wasn't enough. Cheers!

TUDCA alkaline? you must be joking. It's extremely acidic. It used to give me heartburn when I took too much

 

[June]

bit late but, first i thought they were acidic enough. but this shows correlation to decreased stomach acidity in people Increased levels of conjugated bile acids are associated with human bile reflux gastritis

We further measured the pH of the gastric juice and results were 4.62 ± 2.20, 2.73 ± 0.90, 2.37 ± 0.94, respectively in groups A to C. Moreover, the total BA levels of the three groups were positively correlated (r = 0.363, p < 0.05) with the pH of gastric juice. The conjugated BAs were significantly and positively correlated (r = 0.494, p < 0.01) with the pH whereas, the unconjugated BAs were not correlated (p = 0.595) with pH, implying that increasing gastric pH accompanies increasing amounts of BAs, especially reflux-induced conjugated BAs.



in group A that's in people with reflux so the bile acid is going back into the stomach. So probably best to take away from food. bile acids get recycled through the intestine so should still work all the same.

this one https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/301564959.pdf says "glycoconjugated and tauroconjugated bile acids are precipitated and, therefore, inactivated at pH <4 and 2 respectively" -
Glycochenodeoxycholic Acid - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics Effect of gastric pH on bile acids that have entered the stomach as a result of duodenogastric reflux - In a normal person with a gastric pH in the 1 to 3 range (a), the bile acids are inactivated by precipitation. In the partially acid suppressed state commonly present in patients on acid suppressive drugs (b), the gastric pH is in the 3 to 6 range and bile acid metabolites are in the soluble, un-ionized state where they have been shown to enter Barrett epithelial cells and induce carcinogenesis

In a patient with normal gastric acidity in the 1 to 3 pH range, bile acids precipitate into harmless insoluble molecules (Fig. 10.25). At a pH above 6, the bile acids remain in an ionized form, which precludes their entry into cells. Between a pH of 3 and 6, the bile acids and their metabolites are converted to un-ionized soluble molecules that can penetrate cell membranes and enter epithelial cells.

Acid suppression, particularly when it is incomplete as in the vast majority of patients who take these medications, both over the counter and prescribed, has the effect of increasing gastric pH into the critical 3 to 6 pH range where it promotes the generation of carcinogenic molecules from the endogenous bile acids when these are present in the stomach.


so shouldn't be any direct harm to the stomach from bile acids in typical stomach pH. but can cause direct harm if stomach is more alkali >3 pH. & indirectly if works to lower acidity too.

in terms of SIBO it should be a benefit by most mouse studies at least but so far for me results have been mixed,
is a risk to stomach pH u could try betain HCL with it

Back in the day they used to use it in sword wounds to help healing / prevent infections

This is so dang helpful. Thank you! I did give it a trial and TUDCA definitely wasn't alkaline. It didn't exacerbate my SIBO but it did cause a burning sensation in colon and bladder for weeks =(. @Rowdy Ramsay is right. But other bile salts is another matter. Unlike TUDCA, they are extremely alkaline. Adding ACV couldn't even offset the alkaline nature. I don't think Bile salts is my issue, I think it's the function of my gallbladder that needs looking at.

 

[Daft]

What color were your stools before yellow/ orange?

Yes! Chronically pale yellow. Tell this to a GP and a GI Doc... no lightbulb in their head regarding bile. The true method of knowledge is experiment. What makes you guess?

 

[gabys225]

Yes! Chronically pale yellow. Tell this to a GP and a GI Doc... no lightbulb in their head regarding bile. The true method of knowledge is experiment. What makes you guess?

I noticed the same thing too. TUDCA doesn't do a damn thing, but taurine is very helpful. What else are you doing to help bile flow? I've scoured the internet and this is the best that I can find:

Malic Acid to dissolve any potential stones (haven't tried ACV but I might add it in)

Edit: From a SIBO thread I just read: "Too much cholesterol and too little phosphatidylcholine can lead to gallstones, or cholestasis: decreased bile flow." This is a lightbulb moment for me because I didn't know the ratio was important! This is where some ACV to lower cholesterol could come in handy, at least until the cholestatic condition is remedied.

Dietary acetic acid reduces serum cholesterol and triacylglycerols in rats fed a cholesterol-rich diet - PubMed Lots of anecdotal evidence from forums all over the web that ACV indeed lowered people cholesterol FWIW.

Taurine for bile production/bile thinning, glycine too

PPC ( polyenylphosphatidylcholine), which is somewhat controversial since choline attached to a PUFA but I have found it very helpful. I tried using mitolipin instead but did not get same results, and the presence of vitamin E in mitolipin makes reaching effective choline doses prohibitive.

Vitamin C for bile production - this one is huge. If I miss my vitamin C I know I'm going to have pale stools and feel terrible

Lactoferrin - reverse liver and bile duct damage (gives me green stools which actually brings tremendous relief if I've been pale for a few days, but this is dependent on adequate vit C. No C, no bile flow)

I'm not listing any herbs or bitters because I have found them to be hit or miss. Bitters are a good stimulant but how many people digest just fine without the need to constantly stimulate their digestion with bitters? IMO, it doesn't make much sense and I'd rather get closer to root causes.

 

[Daft]

@gabys225

I've been taking TUDCA finally, 500mg for the past 10 days or so. Speculative but have been having a right rib ache in a sign it's causing changes there to (fatty) liver, and am also slimming gradually and with less water retention and chronic bloat of belly gradually. But, the confound is also starting taurine 1g simultaneously, and somewhat of a dietary intervention and a consistent home strength exercise routine coinciding.

Stools have been sometimes more well formed occasionally which is still uncommon, and I suspect this to be a result of proper bile production restoration.

 

[Candeias]

DRUG INDUCED CHOLESTASIS


"Ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA) is currently the only established drug for the treatment of cholestatic liver disease and has cytoprotective, immunomodulatory, anti-apoptotic, and choleretic effects (105). UDCA is also a strong agonist of PXR, an important nuclear receptor that up-regulates CYP3A4 (106).

Experimental studies in rats have demonstrated that UDCA improves cholestasis induced by phalloidin, 17β-estradiol glucuronide and endotoxins (106-109). UDCA increases the expression of canalicular export pumps for bile salts (BSEP) and other organic anions including bilirubin (MRP2) which stimulates bile secretion (110,111). UDCA also stimulates the insertion of these export pumps into the canalicular membrane in a protein kinase C and p38 MAP-kinase dependent fashion (111,112). UDCA stimulates targeting of P- glycoprotein (MDR1) to the canalicular membrane, which could prevent cyclosporine-associated cholestatic effects (112).

Although the mechanism of UDCA's beneficial effect in cholestasis is not clearly understood, it is thought that its primary beneficial effect is decreasing the hydrophobicity of the bile acid pool by replacing toxic (e.g. hydrophobic) with non-toxic (e.g. hydrophilic) bile acids (105). UDCA is best administered at bed time to avoid inhibition of its absorption when administered with cholestyramine or colestipol. However, UDCA is FDA approved only for use in patients with primary biliary cirrhosis and its efficacy in patients with drug induced cholestasis has not been clearly established. For a review of potential future therapeutic approaches for drug induced and other forms of cholestasis "