The Progest-E & Raw Honey High

[Jennifer]

Well, as @Rinse & rePeat had posted, Dr. Peat gives some insight to what may be the cause:

I heard him talk about it in an interview. He was mostly referring to women after menopause. He said if you are through menopause, have depeted PUFA's from your body and are eating a low PUFA diet, supplementing progesterone isn't necessary. It makes perfect sense, if you aren't estrogen dominant then you don't have anything to oppose. Keep in mind progesterone can cause gingivitis and is precarious for those with diabetes. So it is a wonderful tool for protective reasons, but it does have downsides.

Apologies if I missed it, but can you point me to the quote or video where Ray says that progesterone can cause gingivitis and is precarious for those with diabetes?

 

[Dr. B]

Well, as @Rinse & rePeat had posted, Dr. Peat gives some insight to what may be the cause:

I heard him talk about it in an interview. He was mostly referring to women after menopause. He said if you are through menopause, have depeted PUFA's from your body and are eating a low PUFA diet, supplementing progesterone isn't necessary. It makes perfect sense, if you aren't estrogen dominant then you don't have anything to oppose. Keep in mind progesterone can cause gingivitis and is precarious for those with diabetes. So it is a wonderful tool for protective reasons, but it does have downsides.

I would think Peat said progesterone is anti diabetic
where did he say it can cause gingivitis and high blood sugars

 

[Jon2547]

What is "Progest-E"?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Apologies if I missed it, but can you point me to the quote or video where Ray says that progesterone can cause gingivitis and is precarious for those with diabetes?

SamuraiJack posted the quote on the top of page 6 of this post.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

What is "Progest-E"?

Progesterone

 

[Jennifer]

Thank you for the response, @Rinse & rePeat. I only see quotes from Wikipedia, though? I was looking for a quote or interview where Ray said that progesterone can cause gingivitis, insulin resistance and diabetes.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Thank you for the response, @Rinse & rePeat. I only see quotes from Wikipedia, though? I was looking for a quote or interview where Ray said that progesterone can cause gingivitis, insulin resistance and diabetes.

You would have to ask SamuraiJack where he got them.

 

[Jennifer]

You would have to ask SamuraiJack where he got them.

He said Wikipedia at the beginning of the post you said the quote came from:

Let me share some info I've found on Wikipedia:

Well, that clears up my confusion. lol Things mentioned on the thread seemed opposite of what Ray has written and said about progesterone, but I hadn’t realized you guys were going by Wiki, not Ray. Ray recommended progesterone to me and I suffer from pretty severe hypoglycemia—I go into full body convulsions and pass out—so I wanted to make sure I hadn’t misunderstood Ray’s work and progesterone’s actions in the body.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Well given the fact that Ray Peat said in the interview that I posted in this thread saying he recommends people ymto read a book about progesterone before taking it so they take "responsibility" for their own health, tells me there is a flip side of it's benefits. The fact he has said that post menopausal women who have spent the time clearing the PUFA's from their body and are noting eating them back in really don't have a need for progesterone says something too. I think when Ray says certains suppliments are "safe to take daily" doesn't mean everybody needs to take them all. You had an issue that progesteone could help. I don't think the studies on progesterone and gingivitis are wrong, and assuming everyone is taking care of their teeth by getting high amounts of calcium and have eliminated the grains as RayvPeat has recommended they wouldn't be inbthe detrimental groupbin the study. After all a lot of our dental health depends on our gut health. I am sure smoking plays into the odds of who will be more predisposition to getting gingivitis from progesterone too. So the gingivitis studies were not done on Ray "Peater", otherwise I think they wouldn't have much to worry about, but considering a vast majority of people on this forum are Ray Peat dabblers, they probably would appreciate knowing progesterone doesn't protect them from everything. I guess in a nut shell, progesterone isn't going to fix bad eating habits.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Here is an example where RP says progesterone is NOT necessary. I am sure there are other examples in that book he thinks we all should read.


"Progesterone stimulates the ovaries and adrenals to produce progesterone, and it also activates the thyroid, so one dose can sometimes have prolonged effects. It shouldn't be necessary to keep using progesterone indefinitely, unless the ovaries have been removed. In slender post-menopausal women, 10 mg. per day is usually enough to prevent progesterone deficiency symptoms." -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"Women who have had their ovaries removed are usually told that they need to take estrogen, but animal experiments consistently show that removal of the gonads causes the tissue aromatases to increase. The loss of progesterone and ovarian androgens is probably responsible for this generalized increase in the formation of estrogen. In the brain, aromatase increases under the influence of estrogen treatment." -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Women's Hormones and Oral Health

Learn from WebMD how hormones impact a woman's oral health, including her risk for gum disease and tooth decay.

www.webmd.com

 

[Jennifer]

Well given the fact that Ray Peat said in the interview that I posted in this thread saying he recommends people ymto read a book about progesterone before taking it so they take "responsibility" for their own health, tells me there is a flip side of it's benefits. The fact he has said that post menopausal women who have spent the time clearing the PUFA's from their body and are noting eating them back in really don't have a need for progesterone says something too. I think when Ray says certains suppliments are "safe to take daily" doesn't mean everybody needs to take them all. You had an issue that progesteone could help. I don't think the studies on progesterone and gingivitis are wrong, and assuming everyone is taking care of their teeth by getting high amounts of calcium and have eliminated the grains as RayvPeat has recommended they wouldn't be inbthe detrimental groupbin the study. After all a lot of our dental health depends on our gut health. I am sure smoking plays into the odds of who will be more predisposition to getting gingivitis from progesterone too. So the gingivitis studies were not done on Ray "Peater", otherwise I think they wouldn't have much to worry about, but considering a vast majority of people on this forum are Ray Peat dabblers, they probably would appreciate knowing progesterone doesn't protect them from everything. I guess in a nut shell, progesterone isn't going to fix bad eating habits.

I only realized last night that you guys were referring to the Wiki quotes so between that and the fact that it can be challenging for me to interpret studies, it’s going to take some time for me to get through each of the citations in SamuraiJack’s post to see if I believe the studies’ findings. I also don’t think that just because Ray says a supplement is safe to take daily that everybody needs to be taking them all but for obvious reasons, I also can’t say I agree that “progesterone can cause gingivitis and is precarious for those with diabetes.” I honestly don’t know what the vast majority of members on here eat or what makes one a “Ray Peat dabbler” so I don’t feel right in addressing that but speaking for myself, I appreciate seeing the studies, yes. You’ve obviously looked through all the Wiki citations since you say you believe the studies on progesterone and gingivitis but again, I haven’t had a chance to look through them myself to see if I believe them, too, so I can’t comment further. Thanks again. I appreciate you taking the time to address my concerns, Rinse. :)

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I only realized last night that you guys were referring to the Wiki quotes so between that and the fact that it can be challenging for me to interpret studies, it’s going to take some time for me to get through each of the citations in SamuraiJack’s post to see if I believe the studies’ findings. I also don’t think that just because Ray says a supplement is safe to take daily that everybody needs to be taking them all but for obvious reasons, I also can’t say I agree that “progesterone can cause gingivitis and is precarious for those with diabetes.” I honestly don’t know what the vast majority of members on here eat or what makes one a “Ray Peat dabbler” so I don’t feel right in addressing that but speaking for myself, I appreciate seeing the studies, yes. You’ve obviously looked through all the Wiki citations since you say you believe the studies on progesterone and gingivitis but again, I haven’t had a chance to look through them myself to see if I believe them, too, so I can’t comment further. Thanks again. I appreciate you taking the time to address my concerns, Rinse. :)

I have not looked through wikipidia, but I did post that link as to why gingivitis might occur in some people where progesterone is a contributing factor. It seems to happen to women more and people who already have problems with plaque build up. I have not seen anything where supplimenting is a contributor, just made natural progesterone WITH estrogens. It seems there needs to be some prexisting issues for it to be a contributor. I am thinking that the "read a book on it before taking it" is speaking to those who want to just take progesterone to fix all their problems without making the necessary dietary changes.Not only by him disclosing that "reading a book on it first" releases him from liability not knowing each persons situation, but it also arms a person with knowledge what to expect from it according each persons unique situation, with diet, lifestyle, age, experiences and such. I hope i am not rambling, but i was thinking about itva lot last night too.

I haven't looked into the diabetic angle, but I did skim some of his various articles again on progesterone and other ones where he mentions and found these below that were interesting.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"The taste of natural vitamin E is stronger than that of the synthetic forms, but since the mixture is absorbed by any tissue it contacts, including various parts of the bowel, it can be taken in a capsule. If a small amount of olive oil is used with it, absorption through the skin is very rapid. Many women use it vaginally, spread onto a diaphragm, to hold it in contact with the membranes. The efficiency of absorption by all routes is so high that patients should be warned against its anesthetic effect, until their dosage requirement is known approximately. Some physicians prefer concentrations higher than 10%, but the risk of accidental drunkenness or anesthesia is higher with the stronger solutions." -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"With a diet high in protein (e.g., at least 70-100 grams per day, including eggs) and vitamin A (not carotene), I have found that the dose of progesterone can be reduced each month. Using thyroid will usually reduce the amount of progesterone needed. Occasionally, a woman won't feel any effect even from 100 mg. of progesterone; I think this indicates that they need to use thyroid and diet, to normalize their estrogen, prolactin, and cortisol." -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"Excess stress (which can block progesterone synthesis and elevate estrogen) may bring on symptoms in someone who never had them. Spending a summer in Alaska, with an unusually long day, may relieve the symptoms of a chronic sufferer. Dark cloudy winters in England or the Pacific Northwest are powerful stressors, and cause lower production of progesterone in women, and testosterone in men. Toxins can produce similar symptoms, as can nutritional deficiencies. A very common cause of an estrogen excess is a dietary protein deficiency--the liver simply cannot detoxify estrogen when it is under-nourished." -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

This one in particular seems to speak to the gingivitis angle.....

"An excessive estrogen/progesterone ratio is more generally involved in producing or aggravating symptoms than either a simple excess of estrogen or a deficiency of progesterone, but even this ratio is conditioned by other factors, including age, diet, other steroids, thyroid, and other hormones. The relative estrogen excess seems to act by producing tissue hypoxia (as reported in my dissertation, University of Oregon, 1972), and this is the result of changes induced by estrogen in alveolar diffusion, peripheral vascular changes, and intracellular oxygen wastage." -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

This one speaks to me of NEEDING to take progesterone for a reason, "until symptoms diappear", not "just because".

"Since progesterone has none of the harmful side effects of other hormones (except for alteration of the menstrual cycle if it is taken at the wrong time of month), the basic procedure should be to use it in sufficient quantity to make the symptoms disappear, and to time its use so that menstrual cycles are not disrupted. This normally means using it only between ovulation and menstruation unless symptoms are sufficiently serious that a missed period is not important. The basic idea of giving enough to stop the symptoms can be refined by some information on a few of the factors that condition the need for progesterone." -Ray Peat

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"SYMPTOMATIC: For tendonitis, bursitis, arthritis, sunburn, etc., progesterone in vitamin E can be applied locally after a little olive oil has been put on the skin to make it easier to spread the progesterone solution. For migraines, it has been taken orally just as the symptoms begin." -Ray Peat