School shootings aren't as bad as the world makes them out to be

[Chad_Catholic]

What's "an heretick" ? Is that talking about me??

The correct word is heretic. It refers to someone who holds views or beliefs that are contrary to traditional Catholic dogma.

 

[OccamzRazer]

It makes one wonder if he might not be controlled opposition.

Maybe so, I don't know. Sure is off-base either way!

 

[Old Irenaeus]

No, I don't, and I don't think you know what you are talking about. Tell me, what exactly did I misrepresent?

You're claiming a speculative theory, not held universally but held, in various forms, by  some theologians, to be definitive dogma of the Church. And you don't even present that theory correctly but twist it to your own rather offensive interpretation. Many of the Fathers taught that there is hope of salvation for the unbaptized. See for example St Ambrose's funeral oration for the emperor Valentinan. Others indeed expressed hope in universal salvation.

The International Theological Commission addressed this topic in detail under Pope Benedict XVI, if you care to know what they said: The hope of salvation for infants who die without being baptised

 

[Chad_Catholic]

You're claiming a speculative theory, not held universally but held, in various forms, by  some theologians, to be definitive dogma of the Church. And you don't even present that theory correctly but twist it to your own rather offensive interpretation. Many of the Fathers taught that there is hope of salvation for the unbaptized. See for example St Ambrose's funeral oration for the emperor Valentinan. Others indeed expressed hope in universal salvation.

The International Theological Commission addressed this topic in detail under Pope Benedict XVI, if you care to know what they said: The hope of salvation for infants who die without being baptised

None of the Church Fathers believed someone could be saved outside of Church, and every Pope since the establishment of that dogma professed the same.

Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, in which Jesus Christ is both priest and sacrifice.”

Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, we declare, say, define, and proclaim to every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
“Since however there is for both regulars and seculars, for superiors and subjects, for exempt and non-exempt, one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…”

I could give you many more solemn decrees from the Chair of Peter that prove irrefutably that the Catholic Church has always believed in the necessity of baptism and in unity with the Catholic Church. Now, in regards to the issue of death before baptism, I can provide you with a list of Papal decrees issued ex cathedra that will inform you what the Catholic Church really believes happens. Here are a few:

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Session 11, Feb. 4, 1442, ex cathedra: “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, when no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the Devil [original sin] and adopted among the sons of God, it advises that holy baptism ought not be deferred for forty or eighty days, or any time according to the observance of certain people…”

Pope St. Zosimus, The Council of Carthage, Canon on Sin and Grace, 417 A.D.- “It has been decided likewise that if anyone says that for this reason the Lord said: ‘In my Father’s house there are many mansions’ [John 14:2]: that it might be understood that in the kingdom of heaven there will be some middle place or some place anywhere where the blessed infants live who departed from this life without baptism, without which they cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven, which is life eternal, let him be anathema.”

Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, On Original Sin, Session V, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that recently born babies should not be baptized even if they have been born to baptized parents; or says that they are indeed baptized for the remission of sins, but incur no trace of the original sin of Adam needing to be cleansed by the laver of rebirth for them to obtain eternal life, with the necessary consequence that in their case there is being understood a form of baptism for the remission of sins which is not true, but false: let him be anathema.”

This means that anyone who asserts that infants don’t need the “laver of rebirth” (water baptism) to attain eternal life is teaching heresy.

 

[FrostedShores]

I was expecting some kind of statistics showing school shootings aren't as common as we're led to believe and are hyped up by the media to produce a state of constant fear, not to mention to further attack gun rights.

 

[Old Irenaeus]

None of the Church Fathers believed someone could be saved outside of Church, and every Pope since the establishment of that dogma professed the same.

Not outside of but in and through the Church. Although God ordains the sacramental economy, he is not bound by it, and his grace can reach those who do not receive sacramental baptism.

 

[BestSinceDAYONE]

The bigger question is that the alphabet agencies KNOW about these people beforehand, my god they literally watch all of us 24/7 thanks to the patriot act.

 

[teds]

This thread is horrifying

is it SO horrifying i agree

 

[Chad_Catholic]

Not outside of but in and through the Church. Although God ordains the sacramental economy, he is not bound by it, and his grace can reach those who do not receive sacramental baptism.

You're a heretic and fake Christian if that is what you believe.

Pope St. Leo the Great, Letter 167, 5th Century: “Question 16. Concerning those who have been left as infants by Christian parents, if no proof of their baptism can be found whether they ought to be baptized? If no proof exists among their kinsfolk and relations, nor among the clergy or neighbors whereby those, about whom the question is raised, may be proved to have been baptized, steps must be taken for their regeneration: lest they evidently perish…”

According to the teaching of Pope Leo the Great, they will perish without baptism.

Pope St. Leo the Great, Letter 15, July 21, 447: “And because through the transgression of the first man the whole stock of the human race was tainted, no one can be set free from the state of the old Adam save through Christ’s sacrament of baptism, in which there are no distinctions between the reborn…”

No one can be freed from the state of original sin without the Sacrament of Baptism.

Pope St. Leo the Great, Letter 16, Oct. 21, 447, #6: “In a case of necessity any time is allowable for baptism. Wherefore, as it is quite clear that these two seasons [Easter and Pentecost] of which we have been speaking are the rightful ones for baptizing the elect in Church, we admonish you, beloved, not to associate other days with this observance. Because, although there are other feasts also to which much reverence is due in God’s honor, nevertheless a rational and mystical exception must be observed by us for this principal and greatest sacrament: not, however, prohibiting the license to succor those who are in danger by administering Baptism to them at any time. For while we put off the vows of those who are not pressed by ill health and live in peaceful security to those two closely connected and cognate feasts, let us not at any time refuse this which is the only safeguard of true salvation to anyone in peril of death, in the crisis of a siege, in the distress of persecution, in the terror of shipwreck.”

 

[teds]

This thread is horrifying

i've just found a bunch of people to add to my 'ignore list' though.. so bonus

 

[Hugh Johnson]

This thread is inmho Lovecraftian, and by that I refer to the writings and works of art that would make men insane

 

[Twohandsondeck]

It seems appropriate to share that (I believe) God dealt with me over this matter just a moment ago. This discipline is no new occurrence to any believer, but it's rare that such an exemplary pedestal is available in a public space, so I might as well stand on it.

Though the meat of the original post which I've shared here was not intended to be incendiary, nor is it by its lonesome - it's merely doctrinal application - I stroked a different flame amongst others who seek after Truth by my previously crass responses.

My patience for hysteria and emotionalism has waxed low, but just because it's less of a burden to me doesn't mean that I shouldn't be mindful of it when speaking to others.

After all,

1 Corinthians 9:22​

[22] To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

As for the reproof of this matter, the exact measure is found in verse 15 of Romans chapter 14, which is:

Romans 14:15
[15] But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

For those who do not understand - whether in the faith or not - "meat" is simply a teaching of a person who is growing in Christ. When a person is newly born in Christ, they are fed with milk until they are able to bear meat.

Hebrews 5:12-14
[12] For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
[13] For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
[14] But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

+ So then, I'm sorry to those who pursue the name of Christ (please forgive me) and I am still yet perpetually sorrowful for all of those who have not yet accepted God's gift. The latter was the reason for the original post and the former is the result of unnecessary damage due to personal pride.

Lastly, as per relevance, the entirety of Romans 14:

Romans 14:1-23
[1] Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
[2] For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
[3] Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
[4] Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
[5] One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
[6] He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
[7] For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
[8] For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
[9] For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
[10] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
[11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
[12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
[13] Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
[14] I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
[15] But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
[16] Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
[17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
[18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
[19] Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
[20] For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
[21] It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
[22] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
[23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

 

[Nomane Euger]

@Twohandsondeck

hi, if you are absolutely certain that people under 20 who die are "guaranteed entry into an eternal heaven on account of their immaturity", and that you consider that this "heaven" is necessarily better than the life of which we can enjoy in our lifetime, so yes from your perspective "School shootings aren't as bad as the world makes them out to be".

You still consider that it is a tragedy and that this consideration cannot be debated by sane people,

a majority of people will consider like you that it is a tragedy, however a good part do not share your absolute certainty that all people under 20 who die go to "heaven" and that they necessarily enjoy a better life into this heaven,

a good part of them will probably not be influenced by your perspective and dismiss it as quickly because at least to me it seems to manifest a low enough degree of empathy,well being,mental freedom,and that a tragedy "not as bad",is still a tragedy

did you have the same perspective during spring/summer under the sun?or did you manifest this perspective in the darker/colders months?

to put things into perspective:

imagine a person who claims to be certain that the second life after the death of this first life is necessarily better, that everyone should die at birth for their own good and that he claims this on the forum despite the fact that this person has never experienced this second life, and that he bases this "certainty" on a text, whether it is an internet text or written on paper, a text which is potentially a fiction from the perspective of a good part of the people,and a believe for others(believe imply not being certain)would you want to consider it?

^^(the last paragraph isnt your perspective,just a fictional one that i made for the exemple,to demonstrate why some similar elements of your post can be perceive as absurb and not be consider)

have fun

 

[Twohandsondeck]

hi, if you are absolutely certain that people under 20 who die are "guaranteed entry into an eternal heaven on account of their immaturity", and that you consider that this "heaven" is necessarily better than the life of which we can enjoy in our lifetime, so yes from your perspective "School shootings aren't as bad as the world makes them out to be".

You still consider that it is a tragedy and that this consideration cannot be debated by sane people,

a majority of people will consider like you that it is a tragedy, however a good part do not share your absolute certainty that all people under 20 who die go to "heaven" and that they necessarily enjoy a better life into this heaven,

a good part of them will probably not be influenced by your perspective and dismiss it as quickly because at least to me it seems to manifest a low enough degree of empathy,well being,mental freedom,and that a tragedy "not as bad",is still a tragedy

Yes of course.

did you have the same perspective during spring/summer under the sun?or did you manifest this perspective in the darker/colders months?

I just kept hearing the news headlines for a recent one and considered a position based on the KJV.

to put things into perspective:

imagine a person who claims to be certain that the second life after the death of this first life is necessarily better, that everyone should die at birth for their own good and that he claims this on the forum despite the fact that this person has never experienced this second life, and that he bases this "certainty" on a text, whether it is an internet text or written on paper, a text which is potentially a fiction from the perspective of a good part of the people,and a believe for others(believe imply not being certain)would you want to consider it?

^^(the last paragraph isnt your perspective,just a fictional one that i made for the exemple,to demonstrate why some similar elements of your post can be perceive as absurb and not be consider)

have fun

...yes of course.

Those without Christ & God have no hope in the world. All ends in death to the unsaved man, and so he will reason death to be life... however in such a case of shedding innocent blood, there is no way to be hopeful of such a tremendous loss of life, and thus any ideology that attempts to justify this is met with harsh criticism.

Though as is tirelessly said, there is no justification for any sinful act.

Ephesians 2:11-13
[11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Thanks for the thoughts and wishes. Cheers.

 

[ursidae]

the kind of things we muse over while we are having a plate of raw pork offal. This is going to my sv3rige folder

 

[Nomane Euger]

@Twohandsondeck

I don't give any special consideration to the idea of Jesus Christ and God, who to me are two fictional characters that I haven't witnessed myself,
I'm optimistic, to me anything problematic/ sub-optimal can be improved until reaching the ideal,
and when you tend towards the energetic ideal life is fantastic,

I know a myriad of people who are in the same state, therefore from my experience the belief in god and in Jesus is not required to have hope in life, and this belief can potentially reduce the hope of the person:

the more health and energy declines, the more I tend to manifest pessimism, a feeling of helplessness and belief in god, blaming god, and asking for his help.

the more health and energy increase, the more optimism and power and, the more all thoughts of God tend to disappear from my mind

I have observed this phenomenon from a myriad of people

wish you fun

 

[HighT]

I don't give any special consideration to the idea of Jesus Christ and God, who to me are two fictional characters that I haven't witnessed myself

You can have the best energetic life, but it will end and then you will witness Him and you will have to spend the ethernity in hell energetically.

 

[Nomane Euger]

@HighT Hi,

You can have the best energetic life, but it will end and then you will witness Him and you will have to spend the ethernity in hell energetically.

loooooooooooooool i had a good laugh,i dont worry about such thing,god from christianism/islam is a fiction that i can not verify their authenticity from my perspective;

i was answering specifically to Twohandsonneck that said that "Those without Christ & God have no hope in the world"

wish you fun

 

[Chad_Catholic]

@HighT Hi,

loooooooooooooool i had a good laugh,i dont worry about such thing,god from christianism/islam is a fiction that i can not verify their authenticity from my perspective;

i was answering specifically to Twohandsonneck that said that "Those without Christ & God have no hope in the world"

wish you fun

see and believe:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fKrFeX8dRY

 

[Nomane Euger]

@Chad_Catholic

hi, i can not watch the video in my country

wish you fun