Safety Of Long-term Use Of DMSO As A Solvent

[raypeatclips]

If you wonder about dairy products, there's some studies out there... Dairy is worst than others by a wide margin. That's for the bad dairy from the average store though, if I had a lab I would send samples of what I'm eating see how it compares.

I'd be very interested to see the results from regular milk you can easily get as well. As well as the other "Peaty" things mentioned, OJ, coke, water, red bull.

I wondered about the Starbucks they sell in cans in the supermarket, the doubleshot espresso. They taste so good but the combination of coffee plus aluminium never felt right for me.

Depends how many things @haidut is interested in sending, if it was just an after thought of 2-3 products it'd be best to test the "big ones" milk, oj, coke.

 

[BastiFuntasty]

I'd be very interested to see the results from regular milk you can easily get as well. As well as the other "Peaty" things mentioned, OJ, coke, water, red bull.

I wondered about the Starbucks they sell in cans in the supermarket, the doubleshot espresso. They taste so good but the combination of coffee plus aluminium never felt right for me.

Depends how many things @haidut is interested in sending, if it was just an after thought of 2-3 products it'd be best to test the "big ones" milk, oj, coke.

I would consider coconut oil. Here in middle Europe they have found many plasticisers in coconut oil.

 

[A.R]

There will be. I think we will start with Pansterone and androsterone and see how people like them and then release tocopherol versions for other DMSO-based supplements.

Will the price of the products remain the same or increase/decrease?

 

[Wagner83]

For the same potency you will have to pay a lot more than with dmso versions, simply because with dmso topical absorption is 100% and it also potentiates steroids effects anyways . You will need a lot more of each steroid to achieve the same effects with tocopherols.

 

[haidut]

Will the price of the products remain the same or increase/decrease?

Probably stay the same even though high purity tocopherols are significantly more expensive then DMSO.

 

[haidut]

For the same potency you will have to pay a lot more than with dmso versions, simply because with dmso topical absorption is 100% and it also potentiates steroids effects anyways . You will need a lot more of each steroid to achieve the same effects with tocopherols.

This. I have been trying to make this point so many times and nobody seem to be paying attention except a few forum members. With a different solvent, the person will end up absorbing less and there is no potentiation effect. So, the same amount of steroids ends up being a lot less effective than what you'd get with DMSO. But people kept asking for tocopherol version so we will make that option for some of the steroid supplements.
Thanks for bringing this up.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Oh, there is a ton of info on that. I just don't want to post it here as it would sound like I m pushing the DMSO case when I am actually trying to be balanced and warn people on limits of safe daily usage. If you search PubMed for "DMSO inflammation" you will find quite a few studies.

Thanks.

 

[sladerunner69]

This. I have been trying to make this point so many times and nobody seem to be paying attention except a few forum members. With a different solvent, the person will end up absorbing more and there is no potentiation effect. So, the same amount of steroids ends up being a lot less effective than what you'd get with DMSO. But people kept asking for tocopherol version so we will make that option for some of the steroid supplements.
Thanks for bringing this up.

Is it possible that dmso could be giving me a headache? I get a minor one in the front and back of my noggin sometimes when using stressnon. Im afraid it could be an allergic reaction but its vert possible it could be from something else, just trying to elimate my diet and supplements til i find the culprit. Could actually be enzymes in the cheese i am eating too...

 

[Such_Saturation]

Any updates on bottle leaching tests?

 

[haidut]

Is it possible that dmso could be giving me a headache? I get a minor one in the front and back of my noggin sometimes when using stressnon. Im afraid it could be an allergic reaction but its vert possible it could be from something else, just trying to elimate my diet and supplements til i find the culprit. Could actually be enzymes in the cheese i am eating too...

Do you have any other of our products? I would try another one if possible. It is probably the pregnenolone, as headache is a very common side effect even listed on its Wikipedia page. Pregnenolone can raise insulin and lower blood sugar so that could be a factor as well.

 

[haidut]

Any updates on bottle leaching tests?

I sent them to the lab this week. So, we should have some results next week.

 

[Braveheart]

This. I have been trying to make this point so many times and nobody seem to be paying attention except a few forum members. With a different solvent, the person will end up absorbing more and there is no potentiation effect. So, the same amount of steroids ends up being a lot less effective than what you'd get with DMSO. But people kept asking for tocopherol version so we will make that option for some of the steroid supplements.
Thanks for bringing this up.[T

To me this is a no-brainer...have studied DMSO...it is what makes these supps so incredibly effective...

 

[Wagner83]

We will soon start testing the actual supplement poured in the plastic bottles to see if anything leeches from the bottle. We found a lab that is willing to do the testing for a reasonable price. I am also thinking of sending them a few bottles from Pepsi, Coke, spring water, etc to see if commonly sold beverages in plastic bottles contain dangerous levels of bisphenols. If you have ideas for other popular products sold in plastic bottles or containers that we can test please share.

Any updates on the analysis of your supplements and other products?

 

[Wagner83]

Differential effects of dimethylsulfoxide on steroidogenesis in mouse MA-10 and rat R2C Leydig tumor cells. - PubMed - NCBI

DMSO treatment resulted in the highly specific inhibition of a series of 30-kilodalton mitochondrial proteins (named StAR for Steroidogenic Acute Regulatory protein), which we have recently shown to be indispensable for the production of steroids in MA-10 cells. The synthesis of these same proteins was much less affected in R2C cells. Although the mechanism of action by which DMSO inhibits steroidogenesis remains unknown, these results show that its action results in the complete cessation of synthesis of the StAR protein, which is required for the acute regulation of steroidogenesis in MA-10 cells.

Alteration of brain and interrenal StAR protein, P450scc, and Cyp11beta mRNA levels in atlantic salmon after nominal waterborne exposure to the syn... - PubMed - NCBI

The EE2 induced effects at d 7 were underscored because the carrier solvent (dimethyl sulfoxide, DMSO) produced significant induction of the StAR protein and P450scc in both the brain and head kidney at d 7 compared to d 3 postexposure. CYP11beta transcript was detected in the brain and head kidney, where the expression patterns were modulated by EE2 in a concentration-and time-specific manner. In the brain, DMSO produced significant changes in the CYP11beta gene expression at d 7 compared to d 3 after exposure. These changes in the levels of StAR, P450scc, and CYP11beta mRNA levels in important steroidogenic organs suggest that the experimental animals are experiencing a time-dependent impaired steroidogenesis.

Evidence of DMSO-Induced Protein Aggregation in Cells

We report on a study of protein aggregation induced on different cell samples by dimethyl sulfoxide (DMSO) addition. DMSO is the most commonly used cryoprotectant because it is supposed to readily diffuse across lipid bilayers, thus reducing water activity within cells; despite its large use, the mechanism of penetration and even the main interaction features with cell components are far from being understood. In the present work, infrared absorption spectroscopy is successfully applied to real time detection of chemical and structural changes occurring in cells during dehydration from water and water/DMSO suspensions. As a most interesting result, DMSO is observed to favor protein aggregation both in cellular model systems, as cultured lymphocytes and fibroblasts, and in human samples for clinic use, as hematopoietic stem cells from cord blood. This effect is evidenced at low water content, analogously to what is observed for protein solutions. Such tendency is not specific of the type of protein and suggests one possible origin of DMSO toxicity.

 

[haidut]

Differential effects of dimethylsulfoxide on steroidogenesis in mouse MA-10 and rat R2C Leydig tumor cells. - PubMed - NCBI




Alteration of brain and interrenal StAR protein, P450scc, and Cyp11beta mRNA levels in atlantic salmon after nominal waterborne exposure to the syn... - PubMed - NCBI


Evidence of DMSO-Induced Protein Aggregation in Cells

Thanks, something to keep in mind, no doubt. But again, these were in vitro studies and to achieve the concentrations of DMSO used in them you'd have to ingest tensor even hundreds of grams of DMSO. With topical application, the relevant findings are mostly related to DMSO causing skin dehydration, which manifests in skin redness and peeling. But given that we lowered the concentration of DMSO, this is not an issue any more.

 

[Wagner83]

Ok, I'm always curious about the effects of dmso topically, e.g. what is really the concentration achieved in certain cells of the gonads before the dmso is "diluted" in the body, but I'm not sure if there is a scientifical backing to that idea or if it's just my understanding which is flawed. I imagine the cells to be flooded with dmso for some time before the dilution eventually taking place (even then not sure how the dmso works once around cells, does it stay in place for some time etc..).
The inhibition of StAR and progesterone synthesis in certain cells was in vitro but the concentration was 5% Dmso which is way less than what is found in your supplements , all I saw before was related to dmso being negative at high doses and high concentration too.

When incubated in the presence of 5% DMSO, MA-10 cells demonstrated an almost complete inhibition of progesterone production, whereas the synthesis of this steroid was virtually unaffected in R2C cells. The inhibition of steroid production in the MA-10 cell could not be attributed to an effect on protein synthesis, because this was unaffected by DMSO during the course of the incubations. The activity of the cholesterol side-chain cleavage enzyme was also unaffected by DMSO, as demonstrated by incubation of the cells with 22R-hydroxycholesterol. The production of cAMP in response to tropic hormone (hCG) and forskolin stimulation was significantly inhibited in MA-10 cells, but was much less affected in R2C cells in response to forskolin treatment.

 

[haidut]

Ok, I'm always curious about the effects of dmso topically, e.g. what is really the concentration achieved in certain cells of the gonads before the dmso is "diluted" in the body, but I'm not sure if there is a scientifical backing to that idea or if it's just my understanding which is flawed. I imagine the cells to be flooded with dmso for some time before the dilution eventually taking place (even then not sure how the dmso works once around cells, does it stay in place for some time etc..).
The inhibition of StAR and progesterone synthesis in certain cells was in vitro but the concentration was 5% Dmso which is way less than what is found in your supplements , all I saw before was related to dmso being negative at high doses and high concentration too.

Locally, this concentration may be reached in the skin vicinity where the supplement is applied. But at least some of the supplement like Progstene and Pansterone provide the very steroids that DMSO may inhibit
The issue of local concentration has not been studied much, as well as how quickly the DMSO diffuses to larger areas or the bloodstream, and how its concentration declines with time when applied topically. We know that a good portion of it goes to the bloodstream within minutes given the aftertaste people report soon after application. If you find something on that topic please post here.

 

[Wagner83]

The Cornell veterinarian. v.76 1986.
(the first few pages in particular)

This one is quite interesting, there areideas on the hydrogen bonding properties of dmso, how it behaves in the body etc.. It takes 5 mn to get in the blood, 20 mn to reach all organs and in one hour it's found in teeth and bones (p65). The elimination half time is about 4 days (!) (p70), so it could build up in the body if one applies many drops daily.
Other points from the first pages:
Europe and USA don't produce dmso from the same source; exposed to air pure dmso very rapidly dilute to 66-67 %; it appears to work partly by replacing water in biological membranes. The paper also touches on dmso inhibiting or stimulating enzymes in vivo and in vitro (anticholinestearase activity in particular) . It causes histamine release by mast cells but we knew that.

Locally, this concentration may be reached in the skin vicinity where the supplement is applied. But at least some of the supplement like Progstene and Pansterone provide the very steroids that DMSO may inhibit

Yes but I'd rather use a slightly higher dose of a supplement with say tocopherols as a carrier , than risk inhibiting stAR or progesterone synthesis. For example I'd rather use a tocopherols formula for Kuinone. Also a couple of members reported similar potency from androsterone in tocopherols as dmso, the difference being how long it took to achieve the effects.

 

[haidut]

The Cornell veterinarian. v.76 1986.
(the first few pages in particular)

This one is quite interesting, there areideas on the hydrogen bonding properties of dmso, how it behaves in the body etc.. It takes 5 mn to get in the blood, 20 mn to reach all organs and in one hour it's found in teeth and bones (p65). The elimination half time is about 4 days (!) (p70), so it could build up in the body if one applies many drops daily.
Other points from the first pages:
Europe and USA don't produce dmso from the same source; exposed to air pure dmso very rapidly dilute to 66-67 %; it appears to work partly by replacing water in biological membranes. The paper also touches on dmso inhibiting or stimulating enzymes in vivo and in vitro (anticholinestearase activity in particular) . It causes histamine release by mast cells but we knew that.


Yes but I'd rather use a slightly higher dose of a supplement with say tocopherols as a carrier , than risk inhibiting stAR or progesterone synthesis. For example I'd rather use a tocopherols formula for Kuinone. Also a couple of members reported similar potency from androsterone in tocopherols as dmso, the difference being how long it took to achieve the effects.

We can't dissolve Kuinone in tocopherols. It interacts with vitamin E in a bad way. Ray mentioned this in a few interviews. It may be possible to do a vitamin K in some sort of oil emulsion with added phosphatidylcholine as an absorption enhancer.

 

[Wagner83]

Some more information on dmso from Ray:
Ray Peat Email Advice Depository