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DMSO Potentiates The Effects Of Steroids Inside The Cell

haidut

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This claims has been made many times, and is even listed on the Wikipedia page. However, I have not been able to find the actual reference to back this up even though I have been looking for a long time. Now, thanks to @Wagner83 and his link to the "Cornell Vet" book, I found that study and I am posting it here for the people who are interested in seeing. Using 1% DMSO as a solution, a steroid dose of only 1/10 as big as without DMSO was needed to achieve the same effects. So, roughly speaking, DMSO increased the effects of the steroid 10-fold. This suggests that using supplements like Pansterone, StressNon, etc should probably be scaled down to accommodate for this potentiating effect. People have already noticed that they do best on doses as low as 1/4 of the suggested dose on the label. The good news is that this means a bottle would last much longer :):

The influence of dimethyl sulfoxide on fibroblastic proliferation. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Since DMSO is an excellent solvent for steroids, and since cortisol is the most potent fibroblast inhibitor among the naturally occurring corticosteroids, the next step was to test both of these agents in combination in the tissue culture assay system (FIGURE 6). The concentration of cortisol used was 0.01 pg/ml and DMSO was at 1 per cent. At these concentrations, there was no significant suppression of fibroblast growth by either substance used independently. However, in combination, cortisol at 0.01 pglml plus DMSO at 1% significantly depressed fibroblast growth."

"...These experiments suggest a certain degree of synergism between DMSO and corticosteroids and indicate that DMSO could be an important tool for potentiating the biological effectiveness of steroids at the cellular level."

Another very interesting study from that same book showed that even a very small amount of DMSO (2mg/cm^2 of skin) is enough to increase steroid absorption through the skin 3-4 times.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/...of-dmso-as-a-solvent.13956/page-3#post-215509
 

sladerunner69

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I don't know if 2 drops of my pansterone is equivalent to 10 mg dhea + 10mg preg orally....I don't consider myself an expert on reading abstracts and methods, but specifically how were they able to determine that dmso treated steroids were 10x effective? Was it strictly through their assessment of the severity of the fibromyalgia?

DMSO is definitely mroe effective but I doubt it could be that high of a factor...
 

Wagner83

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For those who are curious and did not see the link, here is the Cornell Vet book .
It seems to be quite a thorough review of dmso.

TOXNET
Human exposure studies
"Application of 98% DMSO for 10min combined with a* (at 30min) and blood flow (at 10min) values could help us to identify persons with a hyper-angionerotic reaction to chemical stimulus. The penetrative activity of DMSO correlated with the thickness of the individual's skin."
 

Drareg

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Very interesting about the thick skin.
If you have thick skin is this implying it might just get stuck around surface layers so to speak?
 

Wagner83

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I don't know if 2 drops of my pansterone is equivalent to 10 mg dhea + 10mg preg orally....I don't consider myself an expert on reading abstracts and methods, but specifically how were they able to determine that dmso treated steroids were 10x effective? Was it strictly through their assessment of the severity of the fibromyalgia?

DMSO is definitely mroe effective but I doubt it could be that high of a factor...

I can't read the full study (and I'm not qualified for the job either), from what I see the authors wanted to test effects of various things like cortisol and dmso on fibroblasts in a tissue culture. They tested the effects of cortisol (among other things) at a certain concentration and at 1/10 of this first concentration and noticed (from the OP, not sure if haidut's quote is from the Cornell vet book ) that when combined with dmso, only 1/10th of cortisol was needed to achieve similar fibroblasts inhibiting effects .
Very interesting about the thick skin.
If you have thick skin is this implying it might just get stuck around surface layers so to speak?
Curious about this quote on the relevancy of the skin thickness too, if true then maybe combining the very small dose of dmso suggested in the second study of the OP with a topical application on e.g. the inside of the wrist would have very good effects.
 
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sladerunner69

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I can't read the full study (and I'm not qualified for the job either), from what I see the authors wanted to test effects of various things like cortisol and dmso on fibroblasts in a tissue culture. They tested the effects of cortisol (among other things) at a certain concentration and at 1/10 of this first concentration and noticed (from the OP, not sure if haidut's quote is from the Cornell vet book ) that when combined with dmso, only 1/10th of cortisol was needed to achieve similar fibroblasts inhibiting effects .
.

Yeah I suppose what I am trying to get at is that it jsut doesn't seem liek athorough or conclusive analysis. Did they jsut eye out what seemed like bad fibromyalgia? Did they measure the mass of cells that were effected?
 

tara

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Does it seem to you Haidut that this potentiating effect of DMSO could also influence how strong the effect of our endogenous steroid hormones is, if people use supplemental DMSO itself without any extra supplemental steroid hormones?
 

haidut

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Does it seem to you Haidut that this potentiating effect of DMSO could also influence how strong the effect of our endogenous steroid hormones is, if people use supplemental DMSO itself without any extra supplemental steroid hormones?

It is possible, and this was one of the reasons people usually have a DMSO-only control group in studies as they realized DMSO has potent effects on its own and in combination with what's already inside the organism.
 

mr.mag

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with this in mind, what change in dosages of pansterone and tyro mix are suggested?
 

Makrosky

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Haidut, thanks a lot for posting this!! It backs up my suspicion that DMSO potentiates more like 10x times, not 3x or 6x times. And thanks to Wagner83 as well!

I don't want to tell you what to do of course but shouldn't pansterone in dmso go back to the 8 drops per dose formula? According to the info you just posted, now it's 12.5 mg of DHEA for a single drop which we all know it can be too much. 6,25 mg of DHEA per drop should be much more manegeable and safe. I only say it for safety reasons so nobody shoots his feet with it. Or maybe put this info in the product thread so people is fully aware of the 10x potentiation?

@Constatine might be interested in this thread
 

haidut

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Haidut, thanks a lot for posting this!! It backs up my suspicion that DMSO potentiates more like 10x times, not 3x or 6x times. And thanks to Wagner83 as well!

I don't want to tell you what to do of course but shouldn't pansterone in dmso go back to the 8 drops per dose formula? According to the info you just posted, now it's 12.5 mg of DHEA for a single drop which we all know it can be too much. 6,25 mg of DHEA per drop should be much more manegeable and safe. I only say it for safety reasons so nobody shoots his feet with it. Or maybe put this info in the product thread so people is fully aware of the 10x potentiation?

@Constatine might be interested in this thread

It's not 12.5mg DHEA per drop. It's 1.25mg DHEA/pregnenolone per drop. So, 4 drops would give you 5mg DHEA and 5mg pregnenolone.
 

Wagner83

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He means that since it's potentiated to have the effect of 10X the amount provided in the supplement, one drop is the equivalent of using 12.5 mg of Dhea and 12.5 mg of pregnenolone.
 

haidut

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He means that since it's potentiated to have the effect of 10X the amount provided in the supplement, one drop is the equivalent of using 12.5 mg of Dhea and 12.5 mg of pregnenolone.

Oh, I see. Well, everybody who reported back so far said they do best on 1-2 drops daily. I have not gotten reports of people saying 1 drop was too much. If we do, then we can consider going back to the bigger bottles but I am also trying to limit DMSO exposure for people. So, there is a tradeoff. Maybe the smaller amount of DMSO negates some of the potentiation...
 

Wagner83

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Oh, I see. Well, everybody who reported back so far said they do best on 1-2 drops daily. I have not gotten reports of people saying 1 drop was too much. If we do, then we can consider going back to the bigger bottles but I am also trying to limit DMSO exposure for people. So, there is a tradeoff. Maybe the smaller amount of DMSO negates some of the potentiation...
Did you see this?
TOXNET
Human exposure studies
"Application of 98% DMSO for 10min combined with a* (at 30min) and blood flow (at 10min) values could help us to identify persons with a hyper-angionerotic reaction to chemical stimulus. The penetrative activity of DMSO correlated with the thickness of the individual's skin."
 

haidut

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Did you see this?
TOXNET
Human exposure studies
"Application of 98% DMSO for 10min combined with a* (at 30min) and blood flow (at 10min) values could help us to identify persons with a hyper-angionerotic reaction to chemical stimulus. The penetrative activity of DMSO correlated with the thickness of the individual's skin."

So, the thicker the skin the better the absorption?
 

Makrosky

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Oh, I see. Well, everybody who reported back so far said they do best on 1-2 drops daily. I have not gotten reports of people saying 1 drop was too much. If we do, then we can consider going back to the bigger bottles but I am also trying to limit DMSO exposure for people. So, there is a tradeoff. Maybe the smaller amount of DMSO negates some of the potentiation...
I think I get estrogenic symptoms or maybe not estrogenic but I feel like it's too much with just one drop. Although it's just personal feeling, can't prove it with labs or anything. I take 4 drops of estroban together with it to reduce posible estrogen conversion but I still think it's too much. I will report when I try a smaller dose with MCT. Anyway... yes, we have the MCT version for the ones who want to go very slow. Thanks again man!
 

Wagner83

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So, the thicker the skin the better the absorption?
Not sure what we can conclude from this study, I was a bit lost throughout but here's the end:
Penetration
Recent studies concluded high concentrations of DMSO interact with the skin lipids could lead the ceramide bilayers to undergo a phase transition from the gel phase to the liquid crystalline phase, which may facilitate the transport of active molecules across membranes 21 ,22 . Several studies2 ,21 concluded that this non-immunological immediate contact of urticaria induced by DMSO was due to a mere transient engorgement of the dermis with water. In fact however, multiple factors are involved. First and foremost is the rate of penetration of DMSO, which is dependent on the thickness and the integrity of the stratum corneum23 .

In the present study, comparison of the skin layer thickness is especially challenging because we could not find a correlation among the baseline values of epidermal depth, density and visual scoring, or other parameters. Furthermore, no significantly difference can be observed between the reactor and the non-reactor groups regardless of the DMSO exposure duration. Interestingly, if we divide the subjects according to the sting-producing score, high difference of density values between the stingers and non-stingers could be detected as it is shown in Figure 4. Combined with the correlation analysis, we have reasons to consider that the penetrative activity of DMSO is related to the thickness of individual skin in this study. Importantly, our results agree with many previous studies, which concluded that the adverse sensations induced by the chemical stimulations were closely related to the compactness and integrity of corneous layer2 ,23 . In addition, it is confirmed to directly affect the sensory nerve terminals to receive surface stimulus24 . In other words, if the stinging sensation appears earlier, to a certain extent that indicates the skin permeation is stronger. In the classical lactic acid sting test, this kind of phenomenon was also mentioned many times. Unfortunately, the limitation of our study prevented us from defining and quantifying the skin permeability for DMSO. Further studies on the relationship between the skin thickness and penetrative activity remain to be done.

And the full text: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3109/15569527.2013.821615
 

Constatine

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I think I get estrogenic symptoms or maybe not estrogenic but I feel like it's too much with just one drop. Although it's just personal feeling, can't prove it with labs or anything. I take 4 drops of estroban together with it to reduce posible estrogen conversion but I still think it's too much. I will report when I try a smaller dose with MCT. Anyway... yes, we have the MCT version for the ones who want to go very slow. Thanks again man!
I also get estrogenic symptoms from just one drop of pansterone. Taking any aromatase inhibitor with it helps but the effects are still apparent. It is however easy to get less than one standard dose out of the bottle if you just give it a little shake instead of squeezing it.

It is possible, and this was one of the reasons people usually have a DMSO-only control group in studies as they realized DMSO has potent effects on its own and in combination with what's already inside the organism.
Assuming DMSO can potentiate endogenous steroids does that mean it could also potentiate estrogen?

In very small amounts DMSO might be beneficial but it is not something for people to liberally dose. In higher doses I think the systematic effect is very negative with perhaps the greatest concern being neuron death: Dimethyl Sulfoxide (DMSO) Produces Widespread Apoptosis in the Developing Central Nervous System . The amount in haidut's products seems harmless but don't take lots of dmso for endogenous steroid potentiation.
 

Wagner83

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I also get estrogenic symptoms from just one drop of pansterone. ndogenous steroids does that mean it could also potentiate estrogen?

Maybe you are young and already produce enough of it?

In very small amounts DMSO might be beneficial but it is not something for people to liberally dose. In higher doses I think the systematic effect is very negative with perhaps the greatest concern being neuron death: Dimethyl Sulfoxide (DMSO) Produces Widespread Apoptosis in the Developing Central Nervous System . The amount in haidut's products seems harmless but don't take lots of dmso for endogenous steroid potentiation.
Did you check this thread Safety Of Long-term Use Of DMSO As A Solvent ? Lots of back and forth discussion about its safety.
 
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