Relationship between Thyroid + Stress Hormones & Metabolic Rate?

[Peater503]

Ok, so I'm trying to get a general picture of the relationship between thyroid & stress hormones with regards to maintenance calories. From my very limited understanding, thyroid conditions and running on stress hormones are strongly connected but still separate conditions, so this is how I see it at the moment:

1. Hypothyroidism + Running on Stress Hormones = Very high maintenance calories (because low thyroid -> cells can't retain magnesium -> cells constantly burn calories using stress hormones to produce ATP, which mostly breaks down because no magnesium, resulting in a constant inefficient energy production cycle)

2. Hyperthyroid + Running on Stress Hormones = Extremely high maintenance calories (as hyperthyroid already puts people in a hypermetabolic state that boosts stress hormone production)

3. Just running on stress hormones with healthy thyroid = if acute, increase metabolism. if chronic, slows it down.

4. Just hyperthyroid/hypothyroid = Above normal maintenance calories/Below normal maintenance calories

Is this more or less accurate?

Ever since I saw RP talk about needing 8000 cals to maintain when he was young and supposedly hypothyroid, I have been looking into this and trying to understand it, because I suspect I am in a similar situation; except more likely with hyperthyroid as I have way more of those symptoms. He solved it by supplementing with thyroid and cutting his maintenance cals in half, but I guess that wouldn't work for hyperthyroid people...

 

[LuMonty]

Ok, so I'm trying to get a general picture of the relationship between thyroid & stress hormones with regards to maintenance calories. From my very limited understanding, thyroid conditions and running on stress hormones are strongly connected but still separate conditions, so this is how I see it at the moment:

1. Hypothyroidism + Running on Stress Hormones = Very high maintenance calories (because low thyroid -> cells can't retain magnesium -> cells constantly burn calories using stress hormones to produce ATP, which mostly breaks down because no magnesium, resulting in a constant inefficient energy production cycle)

2. Hyperthyroid + Running on Stress Hormones = Extremely high maintenance calories (as hyperthyroid already puts people in a hypermetabolic state that boosts stress hormone production)

3. Just running on stress hormones with healthy thyroid = if acute, increase metabolism. if chronic, slows it down.

4. Just hyperthyroid/hypothyroid = Above normal maintenance calories/Below normal maintenance calories

Is this more or less accurate?

Ever since I saw RP talk about needing 8000 cals to maintain when he was young and supposedly hypothyroid, I have been looking into this and trying to understand it, because I suspect I am in a similar situation; except more likely with hyperthyroid as I have way more of those symptoms. He solved it by supplementing with thyroid and cutting his maintenance cals in half, but I guess that wouldn't work for hyperthyroid people...

For #1 more calories are also needed because the stress hormones burn up calories. I've known lots of guys in physical work jobs like that, look lean and muscular but run on black coffee etc. Literally lean and mean. Also sodium is unable to be retained properly in a hypothyroid state which limits cellular respiration which increases lactate production, among other changes. This blocks glucose metabolism and causes a vicious cycle.

#2 would just mean not getting enough calories and nutrition to satisfy metabolism, unless it reaches a dangerous level. That's not something I've had to work with so I'll let others fill in there.

#3 basically, as long as recovery is made. This can be confounded by factors that haven't had a chance to show yet, like lots of PUFA being released into the bloodstream from fat burned to adrenaline for a prolonged duration, for example.

#4 Low calorie intake does downregulate thyroid, and needing more calories than usual can indicate hyperthyroidism though, so you're not wrong. However, these are very broad statements and if I had to general in few words I'd replace "calories" with thyroid" for what little it's worth. It could be further expanded in several ways according to each individual. because the "why" would help investigate if it's just a matter of calories or not.

 

[Peater503]

For #1 more calories are also needed because the stress hormones burn up calories. I've known lots of guys in physical work jobs like that, look lean and muscular but run on black coffee etc. Literally lean and mean. Also sodium is unable to be retained properly in a hypothyroid state which limits cellular respiration which increases lactate production, among other changes. This blocks glucose metabolism and causes a vicious cycle.

#2 would just mean not getting enough calories and nutrition to satisfy metabolism, unless it reaches a dangerous level. That's not something I've had to work with so I'll let others fill in there.

#3 basically, as long as recovery is made. This can be confounded by factors that haven't had a chance to show yet, like lots of PUFA being released into the bloodstream from fat burned to adrenaline for a prolonged duration, for example.

#4 Low calorie intake does downregulate thyroid, and needing more calories than usual can indicate hyperthyroidism though, so you're not wrong. However, these are very broad statements and if I had to general in few words I'd replace "calories" with thyroid" for what little it's worth. It could be further expanded in several ways according to each individual. because the "why" would help investigate if it's just a matter of calories or not.

I see. So, generally, a skinny person with a thyroid condition is either hypo + stress hormones, or just hyper with/without stress hormones? (assuming no other conditions)

And an overweight person with thyroid condition generally hypo without running on stress hormones?

I know I'm totally overgeneralizing here, but I'm just trying to get some sort of basic foundation to make sense of it all lol. In any case, I will get blood tests done soon to get a clearer picture of what's going on with me, and I have another thread to ask about the right panel for me here, as my treating physician is unfortunately not very specialized in things thyroid/metabolism.

 

[LuMonty]

I see. So, generally, a skinny person with a thyroid condition is either hypo + stress hormones, or just hyper with/without stress hormones? (assuming no other conditions)

And an overweight person with thyroid condition generally either hypo without running on stress hormones?

I know I'm totally overgeneralizing here, but I'm just trying to get some sort of basic foundation to make sense of it all lol. In any case, I will get blood tests done soon to get a clearer picture of what's going on with me, and I have another thread to ask about the right panel for me here, as my treating physician is unfortunately not very specialized in things thyroid/metabolism.

Right on. Ray always said to get TSH under 1 if possible. TSH is the pituitary signal, so the idea is you want it to be low because the thyroid is responding well, so not much TSH is needed. TSH is also pulsed, it's not a sustained release by the pituitary, so the idea is there shouldn't be a lot to measure if the response is good. TSH can be lowered by other things though, and Ray talked about taking pulse and temperature to establish a trend. So someone with a TSH of .7 but a bad temperature and pulse would want to figure out what's keeping TSH low, because they would be hypothyroid despite the TSH score.

 

[Peater503]

Right on. Ray always said to get TSH under 1 if possible. TSH is the pituitary signal, so the idea is you want it to be low because the thyroid is responding well, so not much TSH is needed. TSH is also pulsed, it's not a sustained release by the pituitary, so the idea is there shouldn't be a lot to measure if the response is good. TSH can be lowered by other things though, and Ray talked about taking pulse and temperature to establish a trend. So someone with a TSH of .7 but a bad temperature and pulse would want to figure out what's keeping TSH low, because they would be hypothyroid despite the TSH score.

Oh, I didn't know that TSH is pulsed I heard certain herbs like bugleweed/lemon balm help inhibit TSH and I've been taking pretty high doses of both for a few weeks now, but haven't felt any difference yet whatsoever. So I'm assuming either they're not potent at all or I'm just a non responder for some reason. Because if I did have hypothyroid, I assume taking them would most likely worsen my situation. But no bad (or good) effects whatsoever, which leads me to go back at what my symptoms are pointing to, which is mostly hyperthyroid.

Although, the only symptom I have suggestive of hypo is my overall body temp, which is around 97.9 °F. I was told lower than 98.6 during the day may be a sign of hypo. But that is only during the day; some nights I wake up drenched in sweat and I have no idea why, at night I just randomly become extremely heat intolerant, a sign of hyper if I remember correctly.

Is it possible that there is a condition where the body alternates between states of hypo and hyper? lol

 

[LuMonty]

Oh, I didn't know that TSH is pulsed I heard certain herbs like bugleweed/lemon balm help inhibit TSH and I've been taking pretty high doses of both for a few weeks now, but haven't felt any difference yet whatsoever. So I'm assuming either they're not potent at all or I'm just a non responder for some reason. Because if I did have hypothyroid, I assume taking them would most likely worsen my situation. But no bad (or good) effects whatsoever, which leads me to go back at what my symptoms are pointing to, which is mostly hyperthyroid.

Although, the only symptom I have suggestive of hypo is my overall body temp, which is around 97.9 °F. I was told lower than 98.6 during the day may be a sign of hypo. But that is only during the day; some nights I wake up drenched in sweat and I have no idea why, at night I just randomly become extremely heat intolerant, a sign of hyper if I remember correctly.

Is it possible that there is a condition where the body alternates between states of hypo and hyper? lol

I've accidentally made myself hyperthyroid and never had less than 99F temperature, I don't really think you're hyperthyroid. Adrenaline causes temperature spikes and night sweats. It would be my first, best guess that you're dealing with adrenaline spikes.

 

[Peater503]

I've accidentally made myself hyperthyroid and never had less than 99F temperature, I don't really think you're hyperthyroid. Adrenaline causes temperature spikes and night sweats. It would be my first, best guess that you're dealing with adrenaline spikes.

Honestly, you're probably right, I rule nothing out at this point. For my blood test, someone recommended me to check Catecholamines + Cortisol + ACTH to paint a clearer picture.

 

[LuMonty]

Honestly, you're probably right, I rule nothing out at this point. For my blood test, someone recommended me to check Catecholamines + Cortisol + ACTH to paint a clearer picture.

Certainly can't hurt to see what the results say, it's up to you what you do in the meantime.

 

[Peater]

some nights I wake up drenched in sweat and I have no idea why, at night I just randomly become extremely heat intolerant, a sign of hyper if I remember correctly.

Also a sign of low estrogen, happens to bodybuilders who go to far with aromatase inhibitors.

 

[Peater503]

Also a sign of low estrogen, happens to bodybuilders who go to far with aromatase inhibitors.

Interesting, should I start consuming a bit more soy? lol

 

[Peater]

Interesting, should I start consuming a bit more soy? lol

No I just mentioned it in case you happened to be using them. A big bowl of quality Haagendaz vanilla ice cream would probably give you good sleep if it's adrenalin or liver glycogen related!

 

[Peater503]

No I just mentioned it in case you happened to be using them. A big bowl of quality Haagendaz vanilla ice cream would probably give you good sleep if it's adrenalin or liver glycogen related!

Oh my bad haha, I've been eating lots of Haagendaz lately but the peanut butter one :)