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Excess Thyroid Increases Estrogen?

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by docall18, Feb 4, 2016.

  1. docall18

    docall18 Member

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    After occasionally hearing in different threads/forums that excess thyroid can increase estrogen I looked it up and found the following studies:

    The interrelationships between thyroid dysfunction and hypogonadism in men and boys.
    Meikle AW1.


    Abstract
    .... Thyroid hormone is known to affect sex hormone-binding hormonal globulin (SHBG) concentrations. Men with hyperthyroidism have elevated concentrations of testosterone and SHBG. Thyroid hormone therapy in normal men may also duplicate this elevation. In addition estradiol elevations are observed in men with hyperthyroidism, and gynecomastia is common in them as well. In contrast to patients with primary hypothyroidism, men with hyperthyroidism exhibit hyperresponsiveness of LH to GnRH administration and subnormal responses to hCG. Radioactive iodine therapy (RAI) of men treated for thyroid cancer produces a dose-dependent impairment of spermatogenesis and elevation of FSH up to approximately 2 years. ....
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15142373



    Estrogen metabolism in hyperthyroidism and in cirrhosis of the liver
    Abstract

    Estrogen metabolism was studied in spontaneous hyperthyroidism (Graves disease) and in alcoholic cirrhosis of the liver. The plasma concentration of estradiol-17β (PCE2) was Increased in men with hyperthyroidism. Although the metabolic clearance rate of estradiol-17β (MCRE2) was reduced, the production rate (PR) of the steroid was increased above normal. The MCRE2 was also decreased in women with hyperthyroidism but the PCE2 and PRE2 was unchanged from normal. The conversion ratio of estradiol-17β (CRE2E1) was increased in both hyperthyroid men and women. The PCE2 was significantly increased in men with cirrhosis of the liver. The MCRE2 was normal and this resulted in an increase in the PRE2 in this disorder. The CRE2E1 was significantly higher than normal. The plasma concentration of estrone (E1) was elevated in men with both disorders.

    The present study documents elevated plasma levels of E1 and E2 both in hyperthyroidism and in cirrhosis of the liver and demonstrates that the increased circulating estrogen in cirrhosis is not due to a decreased removal rate of the steroid but rather results from overproduction of the estrogen. The decreased MCR in hyperthyroidism is consistent with an important role of plasma binding protein in regulating estradiol-17β metabolism in this disorder. The normal MCR in cirrhosis suggests that factors other than plasma binding may be of significance in this disease.
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0039128X75900057



    So if one is supplementing thyroid hormone and goes too high, do you run the risk of increasing estrogen?

    This is confusing, as Peat and others describes thyroid hormone (esp. T3) as a potent anti-estrogen...
     
  2. Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    This is interesting. Could be that the higher amount of T is being converted into Estrogen, and that would account for the higher amounts of estrogen? I know when I take lots of Pregnenolone for longer periods of time, I feel great but gyno begins to be a problem. I always chalked it up to the rise in progesterone.
     
  3. tca300

    tca300 Member

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    Ya, every time I supplement thyroid even 1/8th grain within an hour I get a weird sensation in my chest tissue ( numbness or irritation, I cant explain the feeling very well ) and I can observe chest enlargement over a period of a few days. So I don't take it. Thank you very much for the studies, I've been trying to find information about this very subject.
     
  4. supernature

    supernature Member

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    Should we conclude all man with low T, high estradiol and RT3 are hyperthyroid then?

    This cancer promoting estradiol-17β doesnt look good, but im wondering how its unproper removal is not due to diminished liver function(cirrhosis) but only due to high estrogen production as its stated in the article, as the liver is the main organ of estrogen detox.

    I mean the diminished liver function is a reason for lower estrogen removal and higher estrogen build up, not the other way around!?
     
  5. James_001

    James_001 Member

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    Many "hyperthyroid" people are actually hypo...
     
  6. tara

    tara Member

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    I doubt it.

    I think it works both ways - healthy liver detoxes excess estrogen; excess estrogen may also slow down the liver?
     
  7. dookie

    dookie Member

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    There were several posts about this on the old peatarian forums. People experiencing estrogenic effects from thyroid supplementation, whether T3 or T4 or dessicated, and even in small amounts like 1 mcg of T3 or a few mcg of T4. The more thyroid, the stronger estrogen effects. I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned more here, and most posters here push thyroid supplementation on any TSH above 3, which I think is rather silly
     
  8. FredSonoma

    FredSonoma Member

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    Crap lol now I'm worried
     
  9. supernature

    supernature Member

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    That being said it seems a lot of posters as you mention are supplementing something thats not optimal for them, especially if their estrogens levels are elevated already, as a result of the supplements or low liver detox capacity or some other reason..!?
     
  10. supernature

    supernature Member

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    Yes, i guess the right word should be excess estrogen. If we look it this way that in mans body the estrogens are not supposed to be produced in too high amounts, why they are building up then. It shouldn't be something with low liver detox capacity due to soo many reasons?

    I also think about the reabsorption of the bile from the body - as it is excreted as usual (if everything is working properly), which is supposed to eliminate the excess estrogens,
    but most of the bile is reabsorbed in the colon anyway (the body mechanism of not loosing valuable nutrients), so it could be that the excess estrogens that are being eliminated are very little (due to limited liver capacity excretion) are being reabsorbed again in the body, which could be another reason of estrogen build up, cant be?
     
  11. Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    Thing is, you need an explanation for why this is happening to really be useful. Sure there are some guys who take thyroid and get gyno, but there are lots of guys who don't as well I'm sure. Until there is a solid explanation, this thread is kind of shooting in the dark. With that said, I wish there were more threads like this because it gets down to the nuts and bolts of taking thyroid.
     
  12. dookie

    dookie Member

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    Actually, from the majority of people I have heard from, they got estrogen elevation from the thyroid alone. I think a lot of people on these boards get it too, but choose to ignore it and push through, because the theory on thyroid supplementation is just so "impeccable".
     
  13. unexamined_whimsy

    unexamined_whimsy Member

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  14. James_001

    James_001 Member

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    What would you consider symptoms of this estrogen elevation?
     
  15. OP
    docall18

    docall18 Member

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    One explanation for high estrogen when supplementing thyroid is the increased metabolism from thyroid pushing estrogen out of the tissues into the blood. Similar to what Peat mentions progesterone can do.

    I am starting to think that fixing any metabolism issues is a (very) long haul.
    It doesn't seem to be: replace the low thyroid/progesterone etc and everything falls into place pretty quickly.
    It could be many have a build up of estrogen, heavy metals & other toxins from years of poor health. These get released when trying to restore metabolism. In that situation metabolism would not be corrected until all these toxins are removed. And also going to quick, not using detoxers, poor liver etc increases circulating toxins. Leaving you worse than when you started.

    That is my experience over the last years. I do great mentally & energy wise with many supps that increase my metabolism (B6, Preg, Progesterone, thyroid, caffeine etc). However every one of these eventually end up causing high estrogen. I take anti-estrogens to offset this (high dose Aspirin, Vitamin E, Zinc, microsilica etc).

    So i just unsure whether the estrogen is being released and slowly detoxed or if the supps are actually generating estrogen and i am pissing against the wind. If it is only released estrogen I sure have a lot as i have been working on it over 10 years...

    Yes, this is something never mentioned. You would imagine if the issue was estrogen getting liberated from tissues etc it would be understood/highlighted by Peat etc.
     
  16. OP
    docall18

    docall18 Member

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    For me the main ones are: Low body temperature. Quick weight gain. Water retention - bloated stomach. Reduced libido & no night wood. Oily skin.
     
  17. nograde

    nograde Member

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    Dewitt from the old peatarian.com site offered an interesting theory. He suspected a low metabolism as a physiological defense strategy in response to high endotoxin. This view would als match with the observed liver problems in the study above. I could imagine that artificially ramping up metabolism in the face of high endotoxin load could actually make things worse. Personally I also observe an intricate relationship between my gut-health and the ability to pump my metabolism in a way that "feels" good. Also Cyproheptadine for example enormously increases my coffe tolerance.
     
  18. Tarmander

    Tarmander Member

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    There is problem with the "detox" explanation as pertaining to Pufa or in this case estrogen, or heavy metals, or demons, or WHATEVER. Basically it tells you to do something that isn't working great, but to just keep doing it for some promised result in the future. Natural healing circles are full of this and it's an offshoot to the whole Christian "life may suck but you'll go to heaven one day if you tough it out."

    If it really is an estrogen detox, then we should have lots of stories from people who initially get gyno and water retention but then have it resolve while sticking to the same protocol. What I end up seeing is people going through phases where weight gain and estrogen symptoms dominate for awhile until they change somethings.
     
  19. jyb

    jyb Member

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    That said, even that theory still has a chicken and egg problem: if you have high endotoxin, then that could be because you were just unhealthy to begin with. I think this is especially true for endotoxin problems discussed on this forum, where we complain we got sick after eating this or that, or that such food lowered metabolism. But you have to wonder what caused the body to be sooo abnormally susceptible to leaking endotoxin or crashing metabolism. Actually I think if that happens, it just means the metabolism was never high. "high metabolism" that can crash after just a bad meal or routine endotoxin assault is not a high metabolism. It's just easy to believe metabolism is good temporarily after drinking coffee or something that increases pulse and temps, but when averaging over a whole day or week if you take into account those symptoms is it really high metabolism?
     
  20. ecstatichamster

    ecstatichamster Member

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    touche.

    And yet...I've had this experience myself:

    start new protocol

    feel oodles better

    feel worse

    feel much worse

    eventually feel a lot better

    So I can't write it off.

    Has anyone powered through the estrogen from the tissues idea and came out the other side, that's the question that I have.

    My wife had reactions to pregnenalone that were similar. First, soothing and calming. Hot flashes just STOPPED. Lubrication became better (she is post menopausal). But still very low libido...anyhow, all of a sudden, a few skin eruptions and trouble sleeping...

    So should she keep taking pregnenolone and power through, or stop and just hope it all works out?

    It's a puzzlement.
     
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