The Benefits Of Decreased Thyroid Function

PakPik

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Thanks, yes I think I was blurring the two, FUEL (mainly from carbs and fat) and ENERGY (ATP). So when Masterjohn talks about insulin resistance being a cellular "energy" overload problem, what he really means is that it is a cellular "fuel" overload problem. One thing I guess I don't understand is how does a cell use energy (ATP)? By what mechanisms? We know how it uses fuel, glycolysis/TCA cycle/ETC. Koch's step 3 seems to be how the cell/tissue/body takes up and uses ATP for functions.
Yes... it's unfortunate that he misuses the term "energy". As long as I have clarity on what he means exactly whenever he says "energy", I get what he is trying to communicate, but otherwise it has inconsistencies and contradictions. So as I mentioned in my previous post, bread/sugar/fatty acids/and other substrates should be termed "energy substrate" or "energy source" or even perhaps "fuel/fuel material or source". Just including the words "substrate/source" makes the terming accurate. The "Energy" term should exclusively mean ATP (unless there are other minor ways for a cell to get energy other than from ATP, but for the sake of what we're discussing let's limit the term to ATP).

In what I defined as Step 3 according to Koch's descriptions, the cell accepts/uses the ATP made in a previous step. I don't know all of the mechanisms involved here, but from his book I am aware Step 3 includes the following:
- Acceptance of energy (i.e ATP) by the Functional Carbonyl Groups (FCGs) of the Energy Accepting System. One such Functional Carbonyl Group condenses with the amine of the ATP molecule (thus "accepts" it).
- Liberation of (chemical) energy from the Hydrolysis of ATP to ADP by ATP-ase. There's some info on Wikipedia: ATP hydrolysis - Wikipedia

From what I understood from his book, Acceptance of ATP occurs first and then the Liberation of the chemical energy stored within ATP.
 
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Mito

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Aside from TSH, androsterone and total androgen output are probably the best functional thyroid biomarkers unless you have an androgen-producing tumor that can skew the results. The ratio of androsterone to etiocholanolone is much higher in younger and hyperthyroid people. The androsterone-etiocholanolone excretion ratio in hyper- and hypothyroidism. - PubMed - NCBI

I was curious as to what ratios of androsterone to etiocholanolone they found to be associated with hypo/hyperthyroid.....this is what I found in the linked paper.

It is well known that androsterone and etiocholanolone are structurally identical except for the orientation of the hydrogen atom at the C-5 position which is a in androsterone and 0in etiocholanolone. Testosterone is oxi- dized via the “17-ketonic pathway” to androstenedione and then reduced by 5-a and 5-0 reductases to androsterone and etiocholanolone respectively. Kap- pas et al. (6) made the very interesting observation that the 5-8 compound (etiocholanolone) has a pyrogenic effect in man. With this fact in mind a relative increase in etiocholanolone production might be supposed to be benefical to subjects who are myxedematous and hypometabolic (3, 8). Conversely it may evidently be considered desirable for the hypermetabolic thyrotoxic patient to be able to form more androsterone and less of the pyrogenic etiocholanolone.

A procedure for the determination of the etiocholanolone-androsterone ratio in urine is described. The normal range of etiocholanolone in percent of the total amount of the two compounds was found to be 32.5-76.9. An excretion ratio above the upper normal range was found in 76.5 percent of myxedema cases. In a group of thyrotoxic patients 59.1 percent showed values below the lower normal range.
 

haidut

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I was curious as to what ratios of androsterone to etiocholanolone they found to be associated with hypo/hyperthyroid.....this is what I found in the linked paper.

It is well known that androsterone and etiocholanolone are structurally identical except for the orientation of the hydrogen atom at the C-5 position which is a in androsterone and 0in etiocholanolone. Testosterone is oxi- dized via the “17-ketonic pathway” to androstenedione and then reduced by 5-a and 5-0 reductases to androsterone and etiocholanolone respectively. Kap- pas et al. (6) made the very interesting observation that the 5-8 compound (etiocholanolone) has a pyrogenic effect in man. With this fact in mind a relative increase in etiocholanolone production might be supposed to be benefical to subjects who are myxedematous and hypometabolic (3, 8). Conversely it may evidently be considered desirable for the hypermetabolic thyrotoxic patient to be able to form more androsterone and less of the pyrogenic etiocholanolone.

A procedure for the determination of the etiocholanolone-androsterone ratio in urine is described. The normal range of etiocholanolone in percent of the total amount of the two compounds was found to be 32.5-76.9. An excretion ratio above the upper normal range was found in 76.5 percent of myxedema cases. In a group of thyrotoxic patients 59.1 percent showed values below the lower normal range.

Right, so lower etiocholanolone/androsterone ratio is the same as higher androsterone/etiocholanolone ratio. In the quote you provides the 32.5 - 76.9 range is in percentages so it should have been written as 32.5% - 76.9% in the study. In other words, the etiocholanolone/androsterone ratio is below 1 and conversely the androsterone/etiocholanolone ratio is over 1.
Which part do you find confusing?
 
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Mito

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Which part do you find confusing?
None of it. I was just doing a forum search on TSH that led me to your post. Since I had measured my etiocholanolone and androsterone, I was just looking for the exact numbers that were associated with hypo/hyper in that study that you had linked.
 

haidut

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None of it. I was just doing a forum search on TSH that led me to your post. Since I had measured my etiocholanolone and androsterone, I was just looking for the exact numbers that were associated with hypo/hyper in that study that you had linked.

Cool. Do you find the ratio is a good measure of your metabolism/health?
 
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Mito

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Cool. Do you find the ratio is a good measure of your metabolism/health?
Well my ratio of Androsterone to Etiocholanolone was 1.86. That works out to about 35% using the method in the study (Etiocholanolone as a % of Etiocholanolone + Androsterone). 35% is towards the hyperthyroid end the range given in the study. I had also tested my TSH about the same time and it was 1.81. So definitely not hyperthyroid but there seems to be some correlation.

As for finding it a good measure of metabolism/health, that’s a more difficult question to answer. I find different biomarkers of metabolism/health to sometimes contradict each other.
 
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