Metabolic Efficiency And Metabolic Rate - Doubt

tyw

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Thanks for details.I appreciate also if you recall more and share , as you mentioned.

Probably I need to re read them to understand.

But I just think if the >500 MCG dose is what you think has the therapeutic value then the lower dose(but still higher than RDA/DRI) may do the trick but it just takes longer duration.

Like if you see improvements with dosage you mentioned in 2weeks, then with 100-150 mcg you see the improvements in 6-8 weeks.

Lower doses have not worked in practice. The recomended use cases of Molybdenum is either:

(1) Boost Molybdenum levels above baseline during initial treatment when Phase 1 and 2 liver detox is ramped up.
(2) As a short term ad-hoc supplement when known "high methylation requirement" foods are required (eg: going out for coffee + fatty snack)

In case (1), you want high doses anyway. This should be seen as a necessary evil to deal with purgation strategies.

In case (2), you want an acute high dose to elevate especially hepatic levels transiently, ideally for only the amount of time needed to deal with the incoming stressor. Lower doses defeat the purpose of this.

Molybdenum should still be treated as a trace mineral needed in small amounts for very specific things. The fact that it is very highly regulated indicates that some balance must be achieved (ie: chronic overdose is a problem).

The general philosophy applies: Dose a substance as much as tolerable, for as short a time possible needed for the desired effect.

As an sidenote, and as an example of this philosophy, I've seen some people complain that Betaine HCL does not work for them, only to realise that they are dosing low doses of 500-1000mg.

The recommendation for Betaine HCL dosing has always been -- increase dose until you feel a burning sensation in the throat and stomach, and then back off just a little bit (10-20%). Unless there is a pre-existing condition that warrants caution with the substance, then this protocol applies.

An effective dose is now established, and is to be used only during times when needed, like having to eat a larger-than-normal protein and fat rich meal for a family gathering. In practice, effective one-time doses are more commonly above 3,000mg (usually 5-6 tablets)​

....
 
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paymanz

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Lower doses have not worked in practice. The recomended use cases of Molybdenum is either:

(1) Boost Molybdenum levels above baseline during initial treatment when Phase 1 and 2 liver detox is ramped up.
(2) As a short term ad-hoc supplement when known "high methylation requirement" foods are required (eg: going out for coffee + fatty snack)

In case (1), you want high doses anyway. This should be seen as a necessary evil to deal with purgation strategies.

In case (2), you want an acute high dose to elevate especially hepatic levels transiently, ideally for only the amount of time needed to deal with the incoming stressor. Lower doses defeat the purpose of this.

Molybdenum should still be treated as a trace mineral needed in small amounts for very specific things. The fact that it is very highly regulated indicates that some balance must be achieved (ie: chronic overdose is a problem).

The general philosophy applies: Dose a substance as much as tolerable, for as short a time possible needed for the desired effect.

As an sidenote, and as an example of this philosophy, I've seen some people complain that Betaine HCL does not work for them, only to realise that they are dosing low doses of 500-1000mg.

The recommendation for Betaine HCL dosing has always been -- increase dose until you feel a burning sensation in the throat and stomach, and then back off just a little bit (10-20%). Unless there is a pre-existing condition that warrants caution with the substance, then this protocol applies.

An effective dose is now established, and is to be used only during times when needed, like having to eat a larger-than-normal protein and fat rich meal for a family gathering. In practice, effective one-time doses are more commonly above 3,000mg (usually 5-6 tablets)​

....
Maybe comparing it to betaine HCl example is not a correct comparison.

Low dose long term supplementation of a nutrient gonna improve tissue levels of that nutrient.

Its a alive body , the cells absorb as much as they can and retain as much as they can to gradually reach the desired level.

Maybe a very very weak and sick body only needs very high dose to be able to repair the system , because with a low metabolism cells don't have energy to use the nutrients , so cellular absorption and retention is impaired.

Or you think some of those weak cells need a stronger signal with higher doses to know that the nutrient is there?!
 
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tyw

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Maybe comparing it to betaine HCl example is not a correct comparison.

Low dose long term supplementation of a nutrient gonna improve tissue levels of that nutrient.

Its a alive body , the cells absorb as much as they can and retain as much as they can to gradually rich the desired level.

Maybe a very very weak and sick body only needs very high dose to be able to repair the system , because with a low metabolism cells don't have energy to use the nutrients , so cellular absorption and retention is impaired.

Or you think some of those weak cells need a stronger signal with higher doses to know that the nutrient is there?!

Molybdenum is a trace mineral that is used as a catalytic co-factor by various enzymes. The idealised case for such co-factors is:

(1) mobilisation of the cofactor from storage during creation of dependent enzymes
(2) effective and efficiency use of the co-factor during the entire lifecycle of the enzyme, with perfect defence from attack of the enzyme.
(3) upon life-of-lifecycle degradation of the enzyme, zero loss of the co-factor during salvaging processes.
(0) perfect storage of the compound without leakage.

In general, the body seems to have tigther regulatory processes for elements that are needed in small quantities (usually as essential co-factors with low turnover).

In general, tighter regulatory processes will tend further toward the idealised scenario described above, especially when the regulated substance is not very reactive in the first place (molybdenum is not very reactive).

There are people in the past who obviously have had barely any need for supply of dietary molybdenum. They manage to hang on to whatever they accumulate. The loop described above is kept tight.

It is also clear that any failure in any of the steps above can compromise the entire system. eg:
- if enzymes do not work as efficiently, then more enzyme is needed, and more molybdenum is needed.
- if enzymes are broken down aggressively, and molybdenum cannot be retained, then more molybdenum is needed.
- If storage is leaky, then the available adaptive molybdenum pool is going to be low


There are too many possible methods of failure, and whether or not a lower dose protocol can work for a particular case is going to be unknown. Again, molybdenum supplementation is a "tonic", that at best is going to boost the activity of certain enzymes for a transient period of time. It is not going to fix the underlying reason as to why the enzymes are broken in the first place. Other fixes must always be in place.

In this sense, the comparison to Betaine HCL is perfectly valid. Both are to be used either:

- On a adhoc basis, as tonics meant to transiently boost activity of some particular set of processes, meant to deal with some particular set of stimuli.
- In the context of a larger treatment plan that is designed to address the root cause of systemic failure

The dosing considerations which I have discussed previously, which are higher than what most would recommend, are borne of these considerations, and have worked in practice where lower dosing methodologies have failed.

....
 
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paymanz

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Molybdenum is a trace mineral that is used as a catalytic co-factor by various enzymes. The idealised case for such co-factors is:

(1) mobilisation of the cofactor from storage during creation of dependent enzymes
(2) effective and efficiency use of the co-factor during the entire lifecycle of the enzyme, with perfect defence from attack of the enzyme.
(3) upon life-of-lifecycle degradation of the enzyme, zero loss of the co-factor during salvaging processes.
(0) perfect storage of the compound without leakage.

In general, the body seems to have tigther regulatory processes for elements that are needed in small quantities (usually as essential co-factors with low turnover).

In general, tighter regulatory processes will tend further toward the idealised scenario described above, especially when the regulated substance is not very reactive in the first place (molybdenum is not very reactive).

There are people in the past who obviously have had barely any need for supply of dietary molybdenum. They manage to hang on to whatever they accumulate. The loop described above is kept tight.

It is also clear that any failure in any of the steps above can compromise the entire system. eg:
- if enzymes do not work as efficiently, then more enzyme is needed, and more molybdenum is needed.
- if enzymes are broken down aggressively, and molybdenum cannot be retained, then more molybdenum is needed.
- If storage is leaky, then the available adaptive molybdenum pool is going to be low


There are too many possible methods of failure, and whether or not a lower dose protocol can work for a particular case is going to be unknown. Again, molybdenum supplementation is a "tonic", that at best is going to boost the activity of certain enzymes for a transient period of time. It is not going to fix the underlying reason as to why the enzymes are broken in the first place. Other fixes must always be in place.

In this sense, the comparison to Betaine HCL is perfectly valid. Both are to be used either:

- On a adhoc basis, as tonics meant to transiently boost activity of some particular set of processes, meant to deal with some particular set of stimuli.
- In the context of a larger treatment plan that is designed to address the root cause of systemic failure

The dosing considerations which I have discussed previously, which are higher than what most would recommend, are borne of these considerations, and have worked in practice where lower dosing methodologies have failed.

....
you think Molybdenum is not necessarily an essential nutrient?!
 

Amazoniac

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The problem of Alzheimer's disease as a clue to immortality Part 2:
"The older the person is, the more emphasis should be put on protective inhibition, rather than immediately increasing energy production. Magnesium, carbon dioxide, sleep, red light, and naloxone might be appropriate at the beginning of therapy."
From 'Mind and Tissue':
"In my study of estrogen and aging, I found that the effects of excessive estrogen and of aging itself are practically indistinguishable on the level of cells and tissues. If sleep is so effective in blocking the "acute" symptoms of an energy disturbance which is largely attributable to estrogen, what would it do to the energy disturbances which constitute aging? It is generally known that old people sleep less than young people, and it is also known that the old brain tends to be in an "alarm" state, lacking inhibition. Several years ago, some Russian physiologists maintained a 17 year old dog on "electrosleep" with intravenous feeding for six months--because of the toxicity of chemical anaesthetics such a long sleep required the new method. When they wrote their report, the dog was 20 years old but no longer suffered from his former senile condition. This suggests how important sleep and inhibition may be in the various degenerative diseases. A proper balance between excitation and inhibition seems to be a factor in recovery from most diseases."
 

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